@SmashGizmo - About your ZZRot comment

2nd Chance·Sep 19, 2016·27 votes·4,422 views

https://i.gyazo.com/a6e5ed4ad6f35cd252fe4995314e5707.png

I do not find this okay.

Yes, I would be mad if you deleted it, especially without a proper replacement.

Stop trying to take away my zzrot voidlings of justice.

I find it a great item to get when your team is behind and need the pushing power while also for the reverse as well to capitalize on your lead and need that extra pushing power.

It is indeed a niche item, but I find it working on champs such as Garen, Nasus, Yorick, Singed and more of the bulky variety and achieves it's purpose well.

58 Comments

jaymc1130Sep 20, 201613 votes

I'm here, brought my pitchfork and crusade helmet. Whats the game plan?

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I'm here, brought my pitchfork and crusade helmet. Whats the game plan?

We keep complaining until Gizmo comes out and apologizes for thinking of removing the zzrot of justice

So the usual

jaymc1130Sep 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XuULALrA,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2016-09-20T02:55:41.334+0000)

We keep complaining until Gizmo comes out and apologizes for thinking of removing the zzrot of justice

So the usual

Got it.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Got it.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

not enough rabbling

he didn't come

jaymc1130Sep 20, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=2nd Chance,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XuULALrA,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-20T04:03:24.175+0000)

not enough rabbling

he didn't come

RABBLE EVEN HARDER! RABBLE EVEN HARDER!

RiotSmashGizmoSep 20, 20163 votes

What are we rabbling about? w/e, baylife I just love me a good rabble,

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

ÐelofashtSep 20, 20162 votes

Well, we got his attention if nothing else. Man I need to start tagging developers to get their response. . . so effective.

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20163 votes

{quoted}

What are we rabbling about? w/e, baylife I just love me a good rabble,

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

Deleting ZZ'Rot for just the sake of removing it is not okay!

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

######Nah I mean in all seriousness, can yah maybe not and explain why yah said such, maybe we can work somethin' out?

jaymc1130Sep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What are we rabbling about? w/e, baylife I just love me a good rabble,

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

We love zzrot! We love zzrot! We love zzrot!

Oh, and thanks for stopping by mate. We appreciate ya poppin in.

NoblewindSep 20, 20165 votes

Raptor cloak is a way of life.

Yes I would be mad...this item is really cool and creates it's own situational play style. There should be more unique items like Rot and Banner in the game. They add something beyond just the basic scaling stats most items provide.

Shadow HazardSep 20, 20163 votes

if you creep his profile you will see that he started to pick it up around a week ago, looks like he is liking the performance a lot, and is making the thoughts from a game health and design perspective. Talking about this from a logical perspective. Frankly I think he is making a rash decision and is on a high from doing well with the item.

The item is a pretty niche item on a number of champs and builds. This feels a lot like the thought process that was put into removing zephyr (not good), it will leave a hole that will have to be filled with buffing champs that zzrot made strong and balanced into states of limbo, plus with the snowbally nature of games it gives a solid strategy for organized teams to stall out for a chance at a win (personally experienced this in multiple games myself).

RiotSmashGizmoSep 20, 20165 votes

I've been building it for way more than a week. I basically came to the conclusion that the item is just better than GA in the vast majority of situations in solo queue as a single mitigation purchase and as such it's taken the 4th/5th item slot in the vast majority of my Ryze games, which are essentially all my games at this point.

I'm not making rash decisions, and I'm not just going to go out and delete an item from out of left field, I just legitimately wanted to get people's raw emotional feelings on the items. Turns out the people who like it, REALLY like it, and the people who hate it, REALLY hate it. I guess that's to be expected, but since we're past the league of zz'rot days from a few months ago, I honestly expected more lukewarm reactions from people than what I got.

If you want my honest perspective on why the item is just bad for the game, it has nothing to do with it being niche and everything to do with it warping the game in a way that feels mostly invisible to the people not using it and there's an enormous amount of power wrapped up in these effects. The power is dispersed over 3 minutes of the active and frequently away from where anyone's actually looking at, and it can completely change the tide of the game without anyone even noticing, even the user. Add that on top of the fact that basically any character in the game can just rush it top lane and completely opt out of the laning phase with no reasonable recourse and I just think there are way bigger problems with the item than anyone is really letting on.

All that being said, we'd probably look for a more targetted way to address those problems than just removing it, sorry if my tone on twitter came off as a more serious consideration.

DecritSep 20, 20161 votes

I agree. I play Sion support and i loved the living hell outta that item. You use it with a bare thought and the enemy is forced to make a bad decision. Play that while in silver and you can turn games around by yourself.

Still, i love the item. It makes me able to do the things i want to do when i pick it ( and i don' t mean straight up win the game ) and feels rewarding and skillfull enough to use, even thought it relies more on the enemy lack of strategy than anything else.

In short - i' d feel shit for it removed even thought i can understand it, i could bear it more if it gets excanged with something similar, or with a similar feeling.

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I've been building it for way more than a week. I basically came to the conclusion that the item is just better than GA in the vast majority of situations in solo queue as a single mitigation purchase and as such it's taken the 4th/5th item slot in the vast majority of my Ryze games, which are essentially all my games at this point.

I'm not making rash decisions, and I'm not just going to go out and delete an item from out of left field, I just legitimately wanted to get people's raw emotional feelings on the items. Turns out the people who like it, REALLY like it, and the people who hate it, REALLY hate it. I guess that's to be expected, but since we're past the league of zz'rot days from a few months ago, I honestly expected more lukewarm reactions from people than what I got.

If you want my honest perspective on why the item is just bad for the game, it has nothing to do with it being niche and everything to do with it warping the game in a way that feels mostly invisible to the people not using it and there's an enormous amount of power wrapped up in these effects. The power is dispersed over 3 minutes of the active and frequently away from where anyone's actually looking at, and it can completely change the tide of the game without anyone even noticing, even the user. Add that on top of the fact that basically any character in the game can just rush it top lane and completely opt out of the laning phase with no reasonable recourse and I just think there are way bigger problems with the item than anyone is really letting on.

All that being said, we'd probably look for a more targetted way to address those problems than just removing it, sorry if my tone on twitter came off as a more serious consideration.

Now that's a good answer I was lookin' for. Thank ye kindly for lettin' us know the reasonin' that lead yah to such and whatnot.

If worse comes ta worse and it has to be removed, I hope at least you can make a good replacement of sorts for it.

Maybe a possible solution is one that's been said here before, when it loses some strength when an allied champion isn't in the lane with it. Though that might be tricky to code.

Also, GA isn't as bad of a place as it seems lately... considering the amount of higher ranked and pro play players are getting it lately rather soon as a 3rd or 4th item. Though that's just my insight on that.

######Also also uh... if I can prod your brain a lil on something completely different and do a bit of evil genius testing of sorts... Garen can apply Rylai's passive with his spin, but the stats aren't very useful for him... sooo... would it be possible to hook up Frozen's Mallets passive to it? At a at least halved slowing rate of course.

The Yetii RiderSep 20, 20163 votes

The point about it being better than GA is a good one. People occasionally ask me why I'm building Zz'rot when it's been nerfed and I think they've lost their minds.

It gives Health regeneration Armor MR Move speed

All on one item. It's incredibly, disgustingly slot-efficient and it costs a lot less than other tank items like Randuin's too.

I think the main reason it's not built more often is because people are clinging to the idea that tanks belong in top lane despite both Cinderhulk and Strength of Ages clearly pointing to the contrary. As a pure tank main who builds Cinderhulk for the stats, not the damage, Zz'rot is an extraordinarily efficient item to rush, it's honestly like a tank or support's Runic Bulwark, and that's not a good thing.

I do think an armor/MR item belongs in the game, just because there's so much mixed damage in the game, but I think it should be made extremely defensive so that only tanks can buy it. Something like

Melee Only 60 Armor 60 Magic Resistance

While you are under the effects of hard CC, you gain a shield that protects you for 10% of your bonus health - 100% of your bonus AD (scales up to 35% of your bonus health at level 18). 60 second cooldown.

Shadow HazardSep 20, 20161 votes

Sorry i didn't really go much farther than 2 weeks of play on your profile. Looked like the most heaviest play with the item was over the past week. As you said you did get strong responses about the feelings on the item.

On the point of laners taking it as a laning phase opt out, I think another way to look at it is countering champs that would bully you and force you to tower farm and still bully you similar to how it is most preferable to get grievous wounds against strong healers. And for those who more tactically inclined it makes for amazing bait for catching people out to assassinate/nuke them mid-late game. Even for making impact without really being noticed, that is such a massive singed strategy. So I don't think that there is a too large of an issue that the item causes from a gameplay and a strategic point of view, if really any at all to be honest.

Even though it can be such a universally good item I wouldn't say it is the better option of GA, another strategy that can be commonly applied is switching out GA for zzrot after the revive is put onto cooldown, and from personal experience I think GA is still very strong, and still superior for tanky champs with a lot of health even after the revive was changed so that it gave the higher of either %health or flat since the flat was typically so low that after the revive you were most typically dead if you were already a squishy champ. So if you want to make changes to zzrot because of the comparable stats and passive efficiency between zzrot and GA then maybe it would be better to look at GA also and to a degree banner since it has a similar set and forget ability.

Thank you for reading and giving your thoughts btw.

SohleksSep 20, 20162 votes

Its stats all over the place is a problem, I agree. Especially the generous amounts of regen and the universally powerful movement speed.

item 2053 this niche item is adored, but it's gotta be powerful because it feels more niche unlike most items... it'd be cool to see more of this and this item in more build paths but that's really difficult...

Still I think most champions are making a tradeoff rushing it in lane. (Most champs; resourceless high base dmg champs like Gnar or Garen can kinda kinda get away with it). And it's mostly effective to rush because of its lovely stats.

If the active was on a costly and low stated item it'd live in obscurity again.

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Its stats all over the place is a problem, I agree. Especially the generous amounts of regen and the universally powerful movement speed.

this niche item is adored, but it's gotta be powerful because it feels more niche unlike most items... it'd be cool to see more of this and this item in more build paths but that's really difficult...

Still I think most champions are making a tradeoff rushing it in lane. (Most champs; resourceless high base dmg champs like Gnar or Garen can kinda kinda get away with it). And it's mostly effective to rush because of its lovely stats.

If the active was on a costly and low stated item it'd live in obscurity again.

Yah know...

... I could kinda see it working on deadmans

Course deadman's passive would have to get an overhaul losing it's own movement speed increase

ÐelofashtSep 20, 20161 votes

I do not think the power of it is underestimated at all, perhaps by some players, but for me as one of the users of it I spam ping it to let my team know that I have a distraction for us and we can go get a Baron or Drake for free likely, especially as I play Yorick and drop a Maiden in the lane with it. That is strategic power, and as such one that if it is going overlooked by the enemy then it is their own fault for not seeing the power of it. Sometimes my teammates do not understand it's power, but they are beginning to learn.

RottedApplesSep 21, 20161 votes

speaking of zephyr can i have that item back yet?

ÐelofashtSep 19, 20162 votes

"It is not seeing competitive play, it must either bad or not being used." - likely Riot comment.

Truth is without it we lose a lot of strategic depth in the game. When it's strong it could possibly be too strong, when it's not then no one is using it. Ohmwrecker on the other hand. . . cannot think of a time I would want it over other available options, it does a lot of things, but nothing particularly well. It has VERY niche uses for diving and even then an item with either more armor or a large amount more health is going to end up with the same result of mitigating the damage from that tower.

2nd ChanceSep 19, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"It is not seeing competitive play, it must either bad or not being used." - likely Riot comment.

Truth is without it we lose a lot of strategic depth in the game. When it's strong it could possibly be too strong, when it's not then no one is using it. Ohmwrecker on the other hand. . . cannot think of a time I would want it over other available options, it does a lot of things, but nothing particularly well. It has VERY niche uses for diving and even then an item with either more armor or a large amount more health is going to end up with the same result of mitigating the damage from that tower.

Good point

It is very odd how Gizmo finds ZZRot a bigger problem right now than Ohmwrecker, given ZZRot is getting more use and has a better niche

Captain AishiSep 20, 20161 votes

I went ohmwreccker in a recent game and thought to myself 'it's not even that bad'

if it had like, 100 more health i think the item would be a bit more slot efficient (you get anti tower passive instead of a sunfire or deadman's passive, and 100 less hp for 10% cdr, relatively fair tradeoff, unlike the 200 less health it offers currently)

ÐelofashtSep 20, 20161 votes

I have built Ohmwrecker a few times myself, but it fails to be worth more value than many other options. It has uses, but in no way is it as good as the alternatives is the issue. It sees less than a 1% pick rate (actually averages around .25%. . .) and while it may have a decent win rate when it is picked that is rare. Meanwhile Zzrots tends to have around a 3% pick rate, which means it's not played a ton, but it does see around a thousand more times the pick rate of Ohmwrecker in general.

Meep ManSep 20, 20162 votes

Can we not remove one of the most well designed pushing items in the game?

ZettoSep 20, 20162 votes

Tbh I would miss zz-rot. It leaves me with next to no solution to beat my GP-maining-friend in a 1v1. TBH tho though zz-rot would be very missed. It's a third item rush on Sion jungle for me, since I can rush cinderhulk into a frozen heart and then zzrot and become super tanky off cinderhulk, SOTA, and the W passive.

hadreSep 19, 20161 votes

zzrot is a great item on tanks. It allows you to CS while being where you need to be (ready for a team fight) and it also allows you to have map pressure somewhere other then the lane your in. I honestly don't see why tank supports don't buy this item like 2nd or 3rd item more often. The lack of health is the only real turn off.

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20161 votes

{quoted}

zzrot is a great item on tanks. It allows you to CS while being where you need to be (ready for a team fight) and it also allows you to have map pressure somewhere other then the lane your in. I honestly don't see why tank supports don't buy this item like 2nd or 3rd item more often. The lack of health is the only real turn off.

On OP.GG, I'm not sure when I saw it, but Sion support of all things was within the top 5 for best supports in the game

and getting zzrot first after the support items had a 100% win rate

Akali is SO HOTSep 19, 20161 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2276400197/201824488?tab=overview

Yes I would be very mad

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Akali is SO HOT,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XuULALrA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-09-19T23:48:00.336+0000)

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2276400197/201824488?tab=overview

Yes I would be very mad

Split push Kat confirmed OP

Akali is SO HOTSep 20, 20161 votes

Did that build twice and got an S both times Xd

rG ThundragSep 20, 20161 votes

I'd be quite mad, possibly perplexed and vengeful

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=rG Thundrag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XuULALrA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-09-20T01:06:04.842+0000)

I'd be quite mad, possibly perplexed and vengeful

That's quite angry indeed

ZastieSep 20, 20161 votes

wat

They can't just create an item as cool as this only to delete it afterwards, it hasn't even lived a full life yet. Delete crit before Zz'Rot.

Reaper SorakaSep 20, 20161 votes

Is he serious? It's one of my favorite support items...

Even if I do horribly, once I pick that up I feel like I can make a difference.

LatitoastSep 20, 20161 votes

those voidlings are the only living friends yorick has, do you really want to have 2 amumus in your game if you take away the only friend's yorick has?

RyuyahSep 20, 20161 votes

If he removes zzrot rip triple proxy singed @14 minutes

jaymc1130Sep 20, 20161 votes

IM STILL RABBLING! IM STILL RABBLING!

ModAcademy KaynSep 20, 20161 votes

I personally hate it, and would not be mad. The item is fun in concept, but it feels so interactive to play against when you're just trying to farm under turret, and Zzrot bugs come showing their face, slowing killing it.

Though again, I may be biased. I've faced too many Heimers who rush Zzrot anad Banner and interactively push lane while I'm forced slowly auto'ing away the Promoted Siege Cannon.

Captain AishiSep 20, 20161 votes

it's an essential part of my new Shyvana build, I don't want to see it go and be forced into something stupid like double guardian angel...

Jeddy017Sep 20, 20161 votes

I would personally prefer if there was a proper discussion about the potential removal of Zz'rot. Gizmo could provide a much needed explanation & players could provide counter arguements. If there is a problem with Zz'rot, let's talk about instead of saying, "I don't like what this item is doing to the game. DELETE."

Nagoh ShanSep 20, 20161 votes

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/250x250/71639936.jpg

RiotSmashGizmoSep 20, 20164 votes

something something, dilapidated boat

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20161 votes

Still awaitin' a reason for your comment of yours Gizmo me boy

SohleksSep 20, 20161 votes

Oh yeah! Let's just continue to delete stuff that aren't really a problem!! That way everyone's cookie cutter build becomes even more cookie cutter meta approved!

ZZ'Rot isn't bad on its own. Okay maybe there's a problem if multiple enemy characters have it. And part of it is it has really nice stats.

Maybe first item it's annoying placed behind your own turret in the laning phase. Maybe the range can be scaled in some way. Levels would seem natural EXCEPT by the time you complete your first item you're halfway to level 18 so maybe that's not an effective way to scale it. Maybe the range and power should just scale entirely with raw tank stats so it is really more effective end game. This should nerf if for other characters buying jumping on the ZZ'Rot train (which I never see multiples in my own games btw)

As for what the active does... you rarely see it in challenger/professional play because a lot of what the ZZ'Rot active can do can be achieved by understanding how side lanes pile up and just using how minions behave naturally... Getting legitimate advantages from ZZ'Rot takes a lot of time... It's just an overratedly annoying item people with no understanding plop and forget solving their problems for them.

I wish Riot would stop dumbing the game down at every opportunity they can't figure something out.

2nd ChanceSep 20, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Oh yeah! Let's just continue to delete stuff that aren't really a problem!! That way everyone's cookie cutter build becomes even more cookie cutter meta approved!

ZZ'Rot isn't bad on its own. Okay maybe there's a problem if multiple enemy characters have it. And part of it is it has really nice stats.

Maybe first item it's annoying placed behind your own turret in the laning phase. Maybe the range can be scaled in some way. Levels would seem natural EXCEPT by the time you complete your first item you're halfway to level 18 so maybe that's not an effective way to scale it. Maybe the range and power should just scale entirely with raw tank stats so it is really more effective end game. This should nerf if for other characters buying jumping on the ZZ'Rot train (which I never see multiples in my own games btw)

As for what the active does... you rarely see it in challenger/professional play because a lot of what the ZZ'Rot active can do can be achieved by understanding how side lanes pile up and just using how minions behave naturally... Getting legitimate advantages from ZZ'Rot takes a lot of time... It's just an overratedly annoying item people with no understanding plop and forget solving their problems for them.

I wish Riot would stop dumbing the game down at every opportunity they can't figure something out.

Maybe making it so it can't be placed by turrets within a certain radius would be a good alternative solution instead?

Ruin LanceSep 20, 20161 votes

i actually build this item a lot i'd be pretty disappointed if it got removed

AdeBugSep 20, 20161 votes

i sometimes use it on voli for hp regen, ty

SincarnationSep 20, 20161 votes

Gotta admit, as much as I love the item Its not good for the game, I would be sad if it were removed though But build Zz'rot 80% if im not on a mage support. Zz'rot + Banner for the support split push pressuring waves

ÐelofashtSep 21, 20161 votes

It adds strategic depth to the game, placing it in a good location and utilizing it's offensive powers are a nice addition to the game. If it needs to be clearer than make the void monsters bigger, less frequently spawned and do more damage, that way they are noticed by the enemy team better.