Jungle Champion Mastery should put more emphasis on kill participation and less on CS

Candoodle··2 votes·1,076 views
League of Legends Match History

so just carried this norm game on jung nunu (a rarity for sure but it happens) where i went 16 1 16 at one point the kill score was 14 to 14 even though i was at 9 0 3

anywhoozle i didnt come here just to brag, my point is after pulling out a win in the end i got A+ because cs

now I dont mind so much because i'm already mastery 7 on nunu but there were points in the game where i had the option to tax and secure the S but seeing as i was already fed and nunu is largely utility based taking farm from the laners seemed counter productive and therein lies the problem it seems that in order to get S on jungle riot is encouraging players to sabotage their teams over all chance of winning that cant be right

Anyone else feel like sometimes they are forced to chose between going for mastery or going for win?

16 Comments

Valderis Vandala2 votes

I doubt its your cs. Look at the damage totals to champions, you go about even with your support while your gangplank and jinx are doing far more for their team despite their lower kda. The only people that did worse then you in this game where your yasuo and the enemy thresh, at least in terms of damage dealt.

You do take a lot of damage without dieing though, thats good

There's also two larger fights happening towards the end of the match where you don't seem to appear in the stats, those seem rather important.

Your contribution to your team winning the match may just not be enough for a S rank. That's my guess.

Is there any way I can watch this match?

EDIT: I doubt you carried this game. I'm not saying you didn't do good. I'm just saying I doubt you actually carried this game.

Candoodle1 votes

dunno if replay.gg works still that would prolly be your best bet to watch the game if you really want http://www.replay.gg/search/euw/candoodle either that or wait for me to make a youtube summary vid of the game (dunno if i will) ala https://youtu.be/sK0upg1BdPI

you'll note if you look at the match details i was 9 0 3 or something when the score was 14 14, also was part of first tower take and did 4 drakes and nash, and had highest kill participation by a country mile if that's not a carry i dont know what is

Valderis Vandala2 votes

Thank you for sharing this with me, I hadn't seen this site yet.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to downplay what you have done for your team or your contribution to winning that match, I'm sure you did very well. I just don't know if I can call what you did carrying. But the site and replay seems to be working so I'll have a closer look. I'll let you know more when I do.

Candoodle1 votes

well nunu is a lot more about setting up and enabling others to carry but this match in particular i rushed haunting guise (something i wouldnt recommend anyone do on jung nunu) because all the lanes were in a rough state

that said the team played fine once we got to late game and im sure the enemy team did a lot of misplays im not the highest elo/mmr, at any rate appreciate the feedback

Valderis Vandala1 votes

Thank you for sharing this with me. Sorry it took so long, I watched it many times to get different perspectives on the match.

I can certainly see that you where the best player on your team, but you absolutely did not carry them. This was a team effort. I'll go over your actions first and in the next post your teammates contribution.

Also your 1 death was pretty funny and also rather poorly played, trying to clear a Teemo mushroom next to a wall when there is a bard, a Ryze and a Teemo within range while your team wasn't in range of you. XD Sucks man, if your team had stayed they might have picked up a kill from that considering the enemy wasted everything on you, but you should have not gone for that mushroom without your team.


Alright, you start off counter jungling, very nice, that ends you up with a kill all the way on the other side of the map. The sad thing is however that it also leads to giving the enemy adc a double kill. Because Blitzcrank helped he was out of his lane and Jinx ended up on low health and this lead to a double kill for the enemy adc. It's not your fault, Blitzcrank and Jinx should have played that better, still it is a consequence of what happened with twitch, I don't know if Riot's system accounts for this against you, I doubt it but its a thought. In between you also bother Teemo, meh, he uses a biscuit because of that but otherwise this was kinda useless, still better then nothing I guess.

Because Twitch was fooling around your jungle again you get to feed your Yasuo an assist, a nice gift but sadly wasted on a poor player that can't do anything with it.

You go top next and get a kill on the Teemo, but sadly as a consequence of you coming top you kinda bait your Gangplank into getting killed. So basically you helped Teemo get ahead. Granted your team gets more in total gold but you kinda fucked over your laner. Not intentionally of course, Gangplank should have known better and stayed away, it was his own fault. But again, your team ended up paying for what you did.

Then you go bot and turn a potential double kill for the enemy into a kill for your Blitzcrank. Luckily Twitch was spotted fast enough to prevent Jinx's death, sadly only you and Blitzcrank got the kills on Twitch and Kindred. This was well done, it could have gone very poorly but you turned things around, too bad Jinx didn't get the kills though.

You take first dragon.

Then you went mid but nothing came of it, then you went top but nothing came of it. Stayed top and got another Twitch kill, went top again and got nothing.

After recalling you came to the aid of your team in your bot jungle, you picked up two kills other people had done all the work for. I'm not saying this is bad, it is in fact very good of you, you secured two kills your team could not, but this is not what I would call carrying.

Then you go top once more and kill Teemo, almost getting Gangplank killed again. Again, not your fault but it does almost happen.

A little later you cancel starting dragon for a almost Twitch kill forcing him away from the next fight, after that you go bot and prevent another almost disaster, you turn a 2v2 into a 3v2 and get Jinx a kill on Bard, and you also kill Kindred. And finally 17 minutes into the match do you get something for your actions, you can take bot tower, kind of a empty thing seeing as the tower was practically dead already but whatever, thats the first tower of the game. Also you take another dragon right after.

Then you help defend mid turret with success. After that you kill Kindred who was trying to take your bot tower and save it.

Little later a fight breaks out in the enemy bot jungle, you come to your teammates aid, you could have been there sooner if you didn't take your blue, Jinx almost died, but I do believe you saved her, kinda hard to tell but I believe you did. Also you killed Kindred. Maybe could have been a double kill if you got there sooner. Not your fault that Jinx got jumped by the enemy Bard.

Later still you get a another Kindred kill thanks to Blitzcrank. And then sadly your one death, such a silly unnecessary death.

More later, your team tries to siege the bot lane tower, nothing comes of it but thanks to Blitzcrank someone dies, you want to start dragon and try to go for it but this splits your team, 2 go for dragon and 2 stay to team fight. Your Jinx and Blitzcrank have to team fight 2v3 and can luckily win on their own. You abandon dragon early enough to be there in the team fight but it was already won at that point I believe. You did manage to snipe a kill from Jinx though. I do think it was good that you came, its very hard to say what the real difference would have been here. Would Twitch have flashed away if you were not there? Or was it just for the Jinx damage that he flashed? And you get another dragon. Sadly that is all you get out of that fight, see 4 enemies are dead and only their Bard is alive but you don't take towers out of this.

Once everybody is alive again the enemy gets two of your team out of position tries to push mid, the three of you defend and nothing comes of it. The Yasuo almost gets himself and Gangplank almost killed if it wasn't for your ult. And you kill Kindred again.

Little later I finally see you counter jungling for I believe the second time, only took you what 29 minutes? And all you had to do for it was let Gangplank die mid while he was trying to get a kill/tower. XD But seriously it was for the best, you would have been collapsed on I believe so good call.

And finally at like 30 minutes the deciding moment of the match happens from which the game is won (pretty much). 3 of you managed to ambush 2 of the enemy who over extended, you help with a kill on Twitch, and your team finally pushes mid, with a few good Blitzcrank hooks the final stretch begins. And that's where your efforts kinda end. You are not instrumental in what happens next, sure you are there, and you auto attack towers a few times but you do nothing of consequence here while your team basically destroys what is left of their base, only a single inhibitor is left standing. You do secure one more kill though, though that might have also been a steal from Gangplank.

Sadly you guys still don't get the nexus and there is another fight that the enemy wins but they don't have minions so nothing comes of it luckily. While the team fight is going on you are doing another dragon, and instead of joining them you go for baron, granted with Jinx you get baron, not sure how good that decision was, but whatever you guys won in the end.

Very well played man, you can be proud of yourself, but I think it's not S rank worthy, you did a lot but you did not carry, you where the best player on your team but did not make the biggest impact in terms of getting objectives. You where instrumental in turning some fights around and you got a lot of dragons, and while that certainly helped I don't think your team truly needed them (except for Jinx). You did shut down Twitch pretty well, but I think that was in part because of his own poor decisions that you got the opportunity for it.

I think you need to watch it some more and look at what your teammates did, while their efforts where not as wide spread as yours, and their skill was certainly lacking compared to yours, their efforts did have quite the impact on who won the match. In the end this was a team effort.

I hope you realize that as much as you did, you kinda only got 1 tower out of it. At least in terms of objectives.

And I just found out this forum has a character limit on posts. XD

There is still a bit more, I'll make a reply to my own post for it.

Valderis Vandala1 votes

This one won't be as long. Just looking what your teammates did.

Jinx: I'm surprised how poorly she did, she had a hard time dodging Bard's bindings and made quite a few bad decisions that got her killed. That early double kill fucked her over quite well and Bard keeps setting up good kills against your bot lane, perhaps you should have helped them more. Eventually though she gets a nice cs and kill lead on the enemy adc. She still plays rather poorly but also does good damage. What you did for Jinx and Blitscrank was both bad and good, I think its mostly lucky that the enemy adc made poor decision late game vs Jinx's poor decision early game, Kindred ended up way behind. Once properly fed and farmed she tears throe towers and champions.

Blitzcrank: Man that poor Blitscrank, he can be pretty much useless all game and still win you guys the game. 1 good knockup punch and two good grabs from him leads to 3 kills and you guys are able to take 2 mid towers, mid inhibitor and the last top tower from it. It even leads to a open nexus and all of their towers destroyed. Only for him to almost throw the game not 5 minutes later, luckily the enemy got nothing out of it. XD Probably the worst or second worst player on your team but thanks to him your team makes the most headway out of it in the whole game.

Gangplank: You got him killed. Now, this is not your fault, it was his choice to walk up to Teemo and get shit on, that was his own fault. But, it would not have happened if you where'd there in the first place. You presence at top lane just wasn't necessary I think. Your first gank basically did nothing, and all the while Gangplank was going perfectly even in cs with Teemo. (so he was winning because he's gangplank) So your action, while well intended and fundamentally good, set him "behind", and even though its not your fault it is what happened. You really show up way to much at top, you come around 2 more times, one time gets you nothing, but the second time you almost get him killed again, and again you don't have to go top since Gangplank is actually getting ahead in cs now and getting assists from his ult.

Luckily you stop going top and as expected he kinda wins his lane, even despite the enemy mid and jungler showing up and his own less-then-good-plays he still is out farming the Teemo and getting both the top towers, and after the lucky Blitscrank play he has the good sense to take the last top tower. He's not a great player but he buys smart items and out scales his opponent, as is evident by the rather poor play(s) he makes (the one where he uses his mastery emote XD) but still wins.

The thing with you going top like 4 times is that you waste a lot of time in the first 15 minutes of the match while having little real impact, yes you got two kills but nothing really comes of it, mean while this not so great player takes down 2 towers on his own and takes the opportunity for a 3rd one, helps decide the outcome of the ongoing team fight in his favor, takes top inhibitor, takes both nexus turrets, and takes the last bot tower. (again all of this is due to two lucky Blitzcrank grabs.) The guy is not all that great, and he certainly is no carry, but he won his lane and took some major objectives. (5 or 6 towers and 1 inhibitor)

Yasuo: Least valuable player on your team. Gives first blood away, loses his lane, only gets a tower because of other people's roams. He has only 2 "good" fights in him and he helps secure 1 dragon. Late in the game he does take a tower on his own but at that point he should have been team fighting, if he was there maybe you'd have won the game earlier, instead he's working on the second bot tower, then skips the last bot tower to show up when all is already said and done and helps Gangplank take down the last bot tower. The whole game he either shows up late, has bad positioning or when he does contribute it kinda irrelevant anyway or makes a bad play that you have to save him from with your ult. That was a really nice ult btw, saved him and another teammate with that and maybe even your mid tower (for a while). This just wasn't a good game for the poor guy.

So despite the rocky start, Jinx and Blitzcrank do good work in the end, and Gangplank was doing just fine(ish), thanks to these three your team got all the objectives that mattered. While you only got one.


At least that's all my opinion. Perhaps you need to steal more from the enemy jungle. But you certainly need to take more objectives, as in towers, or make plays happen that end up in your team taking towers. Feeding kills to allies instead of stealing so many is also a nice idea. I feel this match went on for far to long, maybe if you had helped bot lane more instead of top lane. But its not your fault, the more your teammates get caught and die the longer the match takes, of course if you where with them in the first place maybe you'd be winning those fights handily instead of arriving in the very nick of time to win them/steal kills and then not have any health left on your teammates to take objectives.

But hey, thats just how I see it, and I'm just some aram playing scrub. Good luck in the future.

Candoodle1 votes

wow gotta be honest was not expecting you to watch the match much less write such a lengthy reply/breakdown. I rewatched the game myself and yeah might have over sold it a bit, however there are a few things I think you misunderstand, under value.

For one I think you under value the drakes and dont refer to them as actual objectives. Drakes are "objectives that matter" you note that all the lanes are losing early but after 4 drakes suddenly fights go the other way and towers drop

Secondly showing top early, was not expecting to actually kill teemo at most was hoping to get a pot and maybe a summ the point of me showing top was because i knew twitch would go for early cheese mid, the reason i did this was to show twitch i have his blue. (as turns out he already knew, but i didnt know he knew) Why? to bait him into going for my blue where i find and stop him. Later you'll see him try to go for my red too and fail trying to get a 2 buff start. Now oridinarily you dont gank lanes for the purpose of giving jungler free information just wanted to let you know where my mind was at. With regards to gangplank getting killed second visit well that's his misplay, was a free assist for him and potential to out lvl and cs but he walked up to teemo and didnt have enough mana for orange. It was the right call to gank and would do it again even if it worked out in teemo favor.

My one death was really silly to be honest, team was backing off, I just tunnel visioned on the shroom because i hate those things and got surprised by the burst I also stand by the baron call, 3 of team was caught on the other side of the map and no way jinx and i could get there in time. Would we have won the game without nash probably but at the time that was the best available option with zero risk

Anywhoozle I guess I agree that maybe "I carried" is overselling it a bit. Hope you enjoyed watching the game at least thanks for the feedback

Valderis Vandala2 votes

I certainly enjoyed it.

Like I said, it was Gangplanks fault, I don't want you to doubt your decision there, it was the right thing to do. It's just that I doubt the rating system cares about his bad decision, he got killed in a fight between you and Teemo, so maybe that reflects poorly on you despite it not being your fault. We don't know how the system works so its a possibility, no system is perfect.

Yes dragons are objectives, but they are lower priority objectives then towers and inhibitors. When you look at the efforts of everyone in your team you got 3/4 dragon+baron and a tower, Gangplank got 2 towers on his own, and thanks to Blitzcrank stroke of luck everything else with Jinx's help, even some "help" from Yasuo. I can't imagine that not factoring into the rating and sadly you did little for all those towers, you tried but there just wasn't an opportunity for you.

When you look at the gold you made for your team its 900 or 1200 per person, thats a lot but it also takes a long time to get there. The last dragon and baron are sort of irrelevant, its not bad they you got them, but in terms of getting your team back on their feet it kinda doesn't matter, the game was practically already over. So its more like 600 or 900 per person, I say 600/900 because of how one of the dragons was taken, Yasuo already started it and you just helped finish it so I don't know how the rating system sees that.

The thing is who does this gold really help and how much? Yasuo is useless so its wasted on him, Blitzcrank doesn't need gold, you where fed as all hell so its nothing to you, Jinx needed a different kind of attention and by the time that dragon gold starts to add up she's got her own 14 something kills and assists and way out farmed the enemy adc, Gangplank is kinda the only one it actually helped I think. Not to undersell what you did, it is really impressive you managed to get all 4 dragons and completely denied them to your opponents, I think that may be the bigger factor here, the enemy not getting them. But that's not winning the game, that's denying the enemy a advantage.

Yeah you shut that Twitch down so good, he is just useless all game. Even at the very end of the game I can see how pathetic his damage output is, and he's Twitch, damage is kinda all that that champion has. I feel sorry for the guy, that cannot have been a fun game for him. Which is another really good thing you did for your team, making the enemy jungler irrelevant.

Candoodle1 votes

really good insight on the gold value point, would you say my time would have been better spent farming camps or shadowing jinx? (and then keeping vision of drake)

the twitch outplayed himself trying to recover the loss of his blue, trying to steal from nunu instead of cutting his losses was a silly call. to quote the general oddone "nunu's job is to make enemy jungler even more useless than he is"

I still think cs was probably the biggest factor as far as why i didnt get an S, but i guess i could farm a lot more efficiently and pick up the cs from lanes when laners back more often (instead of picking up cloud drake eg)

thanks again for the insight was a pleasant surprise

Valderis Vandala2 votes

To be honest, I'm a guy who speaks out against cs being a factor for mastery grades. So maybe I'm biased, I don't think I am because I don't think I'm being unfair in my opinion. Its just a guess since we don't know how Riot judges it.

So I don't think you farming more camps is going to get you are higher grade. CS is nice to have but only because it gives you gold, which is only good because it gets you items, which is only good because that gives you stats, which is only good because that gives you an edge in fights. What you get out of those fights is the real goal, objectives, preferable towers and inhibitor, dragon and baron are secondary.

Its just a thought but perhaps more stealing from the enemy jungle instead of taking your own camps will help? After all, whats better then getting cs? Stealing their cs of course. If you like to think that cs is important then might it be possible that enemy camps are worth more for mastery ratings? Of course its also far more dangerous, and you don't always get the opportunity for it, unless you can create those opportunities.

I really hate to say this next thing because it is such a bad opinion to have but I think in this particular game your teammates kinda hold you back. Its not your fault that Jinx and Blitzcrank linger too long and got into a fight while they should have helped with dragon. Had that fight gone better it probably would have reflected better on you because they would have been more healthy and could have pushed objectives. There are so many little fights in this game that are kinda pointless and your team kinda gets nothing out of it other then a little bit of gold every time.

But that is such a bad opinion to have, we should not blame teammates, instead you should have perhaps been there sooner, won the fights decisively, your team would have been healthy and pushed objectives way earlier.

I think there is certainly an element of luck in getting those high S ranks. In order to get them a player has to be a absolute monster and be the real reason why the game was won. I mean be the real decisive reason throe out the whole match in winning fights and taking objectives, not just being really good and winning by attrition. I think a player's performance needs to be incredibly lopsided compared to their teammates in order to get those S ranks. This is of course in comparison to the performance of other jungle Nunu's in your case.

Thats another thing where I think you got kinda screwed over, not by your team but just bad luck, that last team fight was so unlucky for you, you didn't get the opportunity to do anything really, certainly nothing important and so many objectives where taken.

It can feel so unfair because damn you did so much for your team.

Please do take my opinions and guesses with a grain of salt, I don't know Riots hidden systems, I'm just a unranked scrub who only likes to play aram, I certainly can't do what you did in this match. I also haven't watched enough matches yet to be sure of what gets people S ranks, all I have is guesswork.

I hope you have better luck in the future.

Candoodle1 votes

thank you gl hf to you too :)

Valderis Vandala1 votes

Sorry I have to make a correction, I think I've made a mistake/given you false information.

I just read someone posting that dragons no longer give global gold. I'm used to dragons giving global gold, but I'm just a aram player so my experience with that is kinda scatcy, I assumed they still gave global gold because the replay showed the gold numbers that I was used to. I should have paid better attention.

Anyway due to that post I went looking for more info on this and it turns out that in patch V4.20 global gold was removed from dragons. So apparently slaying dragons did not grant your team a lot of gold sadly, gold is only granted to the slayer.

Sorry for the mistake.

what you deserve1 votes

ikr i can carry every game on shaco or graves by killing every enemy champion repeatedly but i'm already full build off of that so why do i need cs for a good score

Candoodle1 votes

downvote really? guess laners want to get taxed

Kirius Dark1 votes

the grading is comparing to all other nunu jg tho and creep score does somewhat matter since it looks at how long you're spending in the jungle or in lanes.

Some junglers lane CS matters too because theyre designed to be split pushers so if you're playing the champ properly you shouldnt have 20 kills and no CS (on those champs). Nunu likely should have decent CS too from consume fast clearing & sustain

Fluffeh1 votes

CS in general is overvalued. I remember an absolute fiesta of a xerath game where i had 30 kills, 20 assists and single digit deaths and didnt get an S because i didnt farm

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