"Something has to be done about Kalistar's objective securing."

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39·Feb 12, 2015·36 votes·3,465 views

Casters admitted how ridiculous Kalista's stacking power was. 3:01:14 Stack

The Kalista baron burst: 2:59:56 Burst

Rito plz.

75 Comments

SEKAIFeb 12, 201520 votes

There are too many CertainlyT fanboys out there, this guy needs to get fired really (and have most of his champs revised), along with some others that are seriously dragging the game down (you know who they are).

lojicianFeb 12, 20156 votes

I've never had a problem with certainlyt but kalista convinced me he is just incapable of learning from mistakes.

Darius was a champion at the edge of the mobility spectrum which led to widely different power levels across elos and rock paper scissors matchups that made champion select more important than in game ability to outplay. So he gets heavy nerfs and everyone moves on pretending he doesn't exist. And then certainlyt releases kalista.

The other thing is, certainlyt seems perfectly fine with his rock paper scissors bullshit champions removing counterplay and leading to aggravating situations where you are powerless for picking something you enjoy when it's your turn in champ select. Riot's new philosophy that it's a 'team game' and therefore they don't have to care about balancing individual interactions needs to die in a fire. If people want to play a balanced, strategical, rotations focussed game dota2 is better than league and it's not remotely close. People play lol for other reasons. Riot are removing the things that make league fun (individual agency through balanced 1v1 laning, fast paced outplay potential) to become a shitty dota2 copy.

The5lackerFeb 12, 20155 votes

Found the slightly incoherent DotA fanboy.

"I've never had a problem, but he has problems he doesn't learn from and that's why you should play DotA."

lojicianFeb 12, 20158 votes

Found the idiot fanboy who gets butthurt at any mention of dota and lets it impact his reading comprehension. And apparently can't understand simple balance concepts raising the question of why he's on this board.

The5lackerFeb 13, 20151 votes

Simple balance concepts. You having the mental capacity of a recently lobotomized goldfish is a simple balance concept. ... You really are mentally retarded, aren't you? You don't actually know what you wrote.

I've never had a problem with certainlyt

he is just incapable of learning from mistakes.

If people want to play a balanced, strategical, rotations focussed game dota2 is better than league and it's not remotely close.

Two of these statements are mutually exclusive, and one is entirely unrelated. Lets see how long it takes you to figure out which one is which.

lojicianFeb 13, 20151 votes

I've never had problem with him personally and never thought he had an inherent uncorrectable problem as a designer you downie. I now think he is incapable of learning from mistakes. Learning things and changing opinions is not a contradiction you complete moron.

I explained that "unrelated" comment in the surrounding context but you're too stupid to understand it because like I said before your butthurt at that statement left you incapable of understanding what was written. Instead you cry about the strawmen you instinctively assume whenever you see the word "dota" because it's easier than dealing with being barely literate and trying to struggle through understanding what someone has written.

9kPluzZFeb 12, 20156 votes

{quoted}

There are too many CertainlyT fanboys out there, this guy needs to get fired really (and have most of his champs revised), along with some others that are seriously dragging the game down (you know who they are).

your kidding right? Zed WAS completely balanced 6 months ago and even considered not good for soloQ . Is it certainlyT's fault that riot butchered all the other assassins? And thresh and Yasuo are not even considered op . Blame the balance team not certainlyT

LoLKiruFeb 12, 20153 votes

To be fair, while I can agree with the sentiment, I'd much rather place the blame on live balance (in the end, arn't they the ones who decide on the numbers for things anyway? If something looks like it would be stupidly strong, it should be tested with ridiculously low numbers first, and then balanced accordingly)

Kalista's E is a wonderful example, its like; did no one on live balance say "Hmmmmmm maybe we shouldn't allow these to stack infinitely, yeah this isn't going to live without a numbers change"

RetillinFeb 12, 20151 votes

Well I guess the question is, who is more to blame? Live balance for not trying (in some cases) or succeeding in balance or the Champion design team for making champs that can not be balanced? Over all it falls on both to get things right. So do you blame A for not balancing, B for having kits that are hard/impossible to balance, or C the whole company for not having a set guideline to making champions?

LoLKiruFeb 13, 20154 votes

Fair enough, balance is a company wide issue it would seem (though that varies from issue to issue)

Kassadin is a pretty good example of that, with them being adamant in thinking Riftwalk is an integral part of his identity (honestly, Riftwalk doesn't seem that integral to the concept of a Void-Killing anti mage; but thats just my opinion) outside of that skill, Kassadin is rather easy to balance (personally I'd just replace Riftwalk with something else entirely).

Whereas someone like Kalista I believe could be balanced in her current form, with numbers tweaks (notably by setting a cap on the amount of spears she can place on enemy units and structures, and perhaps slightly toning down her dash distance on autos / increasing her auto attack wind up slightly)

CertainlyT is (in my opinion anyway) a brilliant designer in the sense that he makes interesting champions, whoever has the final say in balance however, should try to be a little more careful with what they let go live, its always better to have something be too weak at first, than to be too strong. (no more of this buffing 1~2 weeks after release thing either)

RetillinFeb 13, 20153 votes

I disagree with CertainlyT being a brilliant designer. Does he create some really unique and fun stuff? Yes. But if part of your design goal is to make a champion that is/can be balanced, then he is in truth a total failure. (Think of it as making a beautiful bridge and yet it is always falling apart) Okay that might be harsh, but I do not think he has done a good job overall.

I do agree that it is better to have a weaker champion on release (to see all the aspects that internal testing have missed). When you look at it only a few champions have been that way. (Mostly thinking of Quinn and Nami on release) Yes there have been others in some way or form, but I think those two are the perfect idea of a release champion.

Again, I agree with Kassadin. But Riot's over all balance team does a **VERY ** poor job of balancing mobility. Strong mobility should have low damage. And yet we see Riot just does a poor job on balance, and if this is the case you have to (as Riot) not allow over loaded kits if you (Riot) can not balance them.

XtremeyFeb 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There are too many CertainlyT fanboys out there, this guy needs to get fired really (and have most of his champs revised), along with some others that are seriously dragging the game down (you know who they are).

it's mostly the balance team. CertainlyT just comes up with the champion designs, not the numbers.

iainB85Feb 12, 201518 votes

It's pretty crazy to me that Riot released an infinite scaling ability with no damage cap on monsters.

It's like... do they even play their own game or do they have people designing champions that simply sound cool on paper these days?

Pretty sure anyone putting a few seconds thought should have seen that would cause major objective control issues.

LytebulbFeb 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's pretty crazy to me that Riot released an infinite scaling ability with no damage cap on monsters.

It's like... do they even play their own game or do they have people designing champions that simply sound cool on paper these days?

Pretty sure anyone putting a few seconds thought should have seen that would cause major objective control issues.

actually there is a cap to stacks its like 240 something

WhiteFireOCNFeb 13, 20151 votes

It's 254, but with a 30% bonus AD ratio PER SPEAR, she can still execute baron without ever getting even close to that.

Drunk RummateFeb 12, 201518 votes

kalistar? like kalista + alistar?

or just kalista and you're repeatedly spelling it incorrectly?

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Feb 12, 20153 votes

[deleted]

Drunk RummateFeb 12, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for pointing that out. It really educated me a lot. I couldn't exaggerate how useful and helpful your comment is.

judging by your sarcasm I'm going to assume you meant Kalista and not a kalista + alistar combo. thanks for answering my question, i guess.

i can understand a typo if its just one time, but you did it 3 times in the same thread so it made me wonder if you meant something other than just kalista.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Feb 13, 20153 votes

{quoted}

judging by your sarcasm I'm going to assume you meant Kalista and not a kalista + alistar combo. thanks for answering my question, i guess.

i can understand a typo if its just one time, but you did it 3 times in the same thread so it made me wonder if you meant something other than just kalista.

My apology. I sensed too much sarcasm in your comment.

LegostrikeFeb 12, 201513 votes

I don't know what you're saying either, could you please answer his question to clarify? It's not like he's trolling, just wants to know what you mean.

DarkenedSoul420Feb 13, 20151 votes

Nunu lol

RainbowgasmFeb 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

lol

Nunu has one skill dedicated to it. It alone makes him one of the best counter junglers

but it deals no damage to champions.

DarkenedSoul420Feb 13, 20151 votes

No, but you can pick him if the enemy takes kalista. He is a pretty strong jungler, can secure objectives better than kalista and his ult shuts her down if she is caught out of position

RetillinFeb 12, 201511 votes

This has to be one of the single dumbest ideas for a champ in a LONG time. (This is counting Yas' wind wall, Kalista's passive, ect...) How this is still in the game is just laughable.

JC DarkOmenFeb 13, 20151 votes

how are either of those bad ideas? people complain about Yasuo a lot, but never about wind wall. and kalista's passive is a great idea that makes her unique: she's that champion who you can't hit skillshots on. she's kinda like singed: if you don't kill her immediately, stop trying or you'll pay

RetillinFeb 13, 20151 votes

Well two things. If you don't chase Singed he can't hurt you, Kalista can still hurt you even if you try to run from her. So they are not really the same in that regard. Also I think a lot of people really hated Yasuo's wind wall because it negates almost an entire teams ranged attack/abilities. I know I hated that more about him than his mobility/crit chance.

JC DarkOmenFeb 13, 20151 votes

she has great kiting ability, but her chasing isn't all that great, probably only around ashe's level. she gets more distance for going backwards than forwards. So if you can't kill her before your health drops to a certain point, stop trying or you'll get the rend

RexZorFeb 12, 20159 votes

Smite is suppose to secure objectives that was why it was invented. Whats the point if it. If kalista on the enemy team can get it no matter what.

Tentacle LoveFeb 12, 20154 votes

Smite does a lot more than securing objectives now.

PartholonianFeb 13, 20151 votes

Force kalista off the objective long enough for stacks to drop. It's not like she can sit there and tank you.

iainB85Feb 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Force kalista off the objective long enough for stacks to drop. It's not like she can sit there and tank you.

That is not acceptable.

The issue is that before Kalista, an enemy jungler had the ability to make a big play and go for a smite steal on drag/baron if their team was dead/out of position.

Kalista totally removes that from the game as she can execute the objective minions far before they are smite-able.

You really think it's good for overall game play that an ADC of all things completely removes the ability for enemy junglers to make a big play and steal an objective?

Killer X 12Feb 12, 20158 votes

"all similar mechanics are capped against monsters for this very reason" - Monte in the video...yea i agree, so why the fuck is Kalista allowed to stack infinitely on monsters?

AriisCrystalbaneFeb 12, 20153 votes

Kalista's rend infinite stacking is a feature, not something they overlooked. They were well-aware of it when she went live.

Killer X 12Feb 12, 20158 votes

Its easy to put a cap on monster damage. There are dozens of similar caps on other skills in game. You cannot out smite a Kalista since a rend will do more than 2x as much damage as smite in late game.

AriisCrystalbaneFeb 12, 20152 votes

I'm well aware of that, but they talked, in her champion spotlight about using it to secure objectives.

Killer X 12Feb 12, 20157 votes

I recall, but she wasn't made to secure objectives. Her E was designed and then they were like "oh this is really good at securing objectives." Yet it means teams on equal footing or are behind have zero chances to contest dragons and barons. This is an issue for ranked and competitive play since there is no chance for the other team to take the monster. Unlike if it was like a cho feast+smite or an Elise spider q+smite, which would technically allow for the other team to smite in between the abilities, Kalista can just straight up kill baron when it has 2.5k life left.

If the damage is capped at 1k like smite is then it can still be used to secure objectives, but it doesn't leave the other team with literally zero options short of diving onto the team and killing her (Killing someone isn't counter play btw...since killing someone stops literally anyone lol)

RoyaiChaosFeb 13, 20151 votes

Uhhh no, Kalista has to be attacking Bar/Drag the whole time. This makes the fight a 4v5. It's only strong when Kalista is the one that starts the objective, but then it wouldn't be equal footing.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Feb 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Uhhh no, Kalista has to be attacking Bar/Drag the whole time. This makes the fight a 4v5. It's only strong when Kalista is the one that starts the objective, but then it wouldn't be equal footing.

Let's think this way. Originally, you just have to kill/interrupt the enemy JG to secure the baron. Now, you have to get both JG and AD. Plus, AD just deals too much damage (>1400 in the video) that smite can't compete.

Another point is, sneaky steal is not possible for her opponents. It is a 100% securing skill since there is no other ability doing the equal amount of damage.

Kalista has plenty of time to attack the baron if her team starts the baron. You can check the video again.

RoyaiChaosFeb 13, 20153 votes

Yeah, if she's starting Baron. But if they're doing Baron, it probably means they're ahead and it's not equal footing.

AriisCrystalbaneFeb 15, 20151 votes

Sneaky baron is easily possible. The -only- way her rend does that much damage is if she's auto-attacking it the whole time. She can secure well, but not steal well.

ErockandrollFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Kalista's rend infinite stacking is a feature, not something they overlooked. They were well-aware of it when she went live.

I agree, it gives her really good objective control, and riot knows this. I feel like it's just one of her Identities. And it's balanced as it stands.

Nucleophilic atkFeb 13, 20154 votes

It's balanced? Da fuq? Stahp being dumb please.

Imperial JapanFeb 13, 20151 votes

Well, youre saying that she was unbalanced since she came out right? Then how come people havnt complained until someone with skill (lcs player) did good with her? Kalista

Nucleophilic atkFeb 13, 20153 votes

Uhm, people actually have? What other ability like this doesn't have a cap?

This champ has been the same since she came out....it's just that people take a bit to get good with champs. You can't judge a champ on the first two weeks of release.

KnivingDudeFeb 12, 20151 votes

How about make something like "Any Crowd-Control effect on Kalista during the skill last 3 seconds longer."

Adrian UmbraFeb 12, 20152 votes

What do you mean? Like, while she's stacking spears on someone and they stun her for half a second she gets locked up for an age while her opponents get to freely kill her? Or that Ashe should permaslow her with Volley alone?

OrangesilkFeb 12, 20156 votes

To be fair, Kalista does not give a damn about permaslow because she can just hop forever, regardless of her actual ms

Adrian UmbraFeb 12, 20152 votes

Until she gets out of range to attack things, in which case permaslow can become a rather large hinderance. Thus Ashe being able to kite Kalista without getting into AA range being a rather enormous advantage. Besides, you have to admit that KnivingDude's suggestion is absolutely ludicrous. A flat CC increase would be broken against characters like Urgot (ult into team, you have to sit there for 3 seconds), Riven (half second stun doesn't seem so weak now, huh?), or Pantheon (easy to apply stun) as they simply turn short CCs into long ones and wreck you without any chance for counterplay. Or play of any kind.

OrangesilkFeb 13, 20151 votes

Yes, it would be pretty damn stupid, I was just being angry at how meaningless champions whose main form of CC is a slow, become against Kalista.

Adrian UmbraFeb 13, 20151 votes

And I get that. But slows are still quite effective on her until she gets some attack speed together. As someone who has played with/against several Kalistas (and as Kalista, at risk of being called a fanboy because I can talk about what other players have done to shut me down), slows are still pretty freaking effective pre-hurricane/BotRK. Even after those item, they're really effective when I'm out of range to attack things. Thus all my arguments against nuking her range to make her "pay for her mobility."

And as much as I understand people wanting their slows to mean more against her, the reverse MUST be allowed if this is made a change: MS boosts would allow her to hop further. And I'm not sure how the player base would react to a Nami spell or Lulu boost essentially becoming a Thresh lantern for her.