Stop calling Sion a juggernaut.

garren9·Jul 31, 2016·12 votes·1,699 views

This is a follow up to my last post http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0r2PE85B-tanks-juggernauts, and as a Sion main it really hurt me how people were calling Sion a juggernaut. In early game because of base stats he does a decent amount of damage but it really falls off. In addition, he has an engage knockup that he can use from half way across the map and another AOE 2.25 second stun, AND an armor reduction E (if it hits a minion then you could even consider it AOE slow). His W could be used on either a tank or a juggernaut, and I will admit that his passive seems like it would be on a juggernaut, but it still doesn't make him a tank.

Also, look at my first post before you dislike or comment.

54 Comments

Dominick DestineAug 2, 20165 votes

"The Undead Juggernaut"

RalanrAug 2, 20161 votes

Titles and class roles are not the same thing.

Course Riot already fucked up by having mastery 7 tanks being titled as "Juggernaut".

SquishieAug 2, 20161 votes

you forgot the /r

JbelsJul 31, 20164 votes

Sion is most certainly NOT a juggernaut, and I really think that needs to be made more clear. Especially since it's very misleading that every tank's mastery progression leads them to Juggernaut at rank 7

RalanrJul 31, 20161 votes

Titan would have been better. Behemoth would have been better. Hell, Brobdingnagian would have been better!

MarshbouyAug 2, 20161 votes

that's a ridiculous word. how the fuck do you pronounce that?

RalanrAug 2, 20161 votes

Brob·ding·nag·i·an ˌbräbdiNGˈnaɡēən/

Credit to google.

MarshbouyAug 2, 20161 votes

RalanrAug 2, 20161 votes

Still would have been better for tank mastery 7 than juggernaut.

MarshbouyAug 2, 20161 votes

totally.

Athenes LuluJul 31, 20164 votes

But that's his title...

He's the "undead juggernaut".

Kuzja1Jul 31, 20164 votes

He's not a Juggernaut. He's an Undead Juggernaut

ReikkenJul 31, 20162 votes

he can be either juggernaut or tank, depending on how you build and play him

ThirdEyeCrowJul 31, 20161 votes

He is a Juggernaut. A Juggernaut is designed to be tanky, have CC AND melee potential. Melee being the key factor. How he compares with other juggernauts is just a matter of his design, but he is, in fact, a juggernaut.

RalanrJul 31, 20163 votes

3 abilities with CC, two of them hard does not make a juggernaut.

ThirdEyeCrowJul 31, 20161 votes

His melee potential makes him a juggernaut, sorry. If he functions primarily like a tank, then that's just how he functions primarily. He is a unique champion, that's the only difference here.

RalanrJul 31, 20162 votes

Except a juggernaut is not designed to have CC.

And what do you mean by melee potential?

ThirdEyeCrowJul 31, 20161 votes

Juggernauts can have CC, why not? CC is not limited just to tanks(or any other role for that matter). His immobile just happens to be AOE because he is designed primarily to function like a tank(in team fight). There are plenty of champions with abilities that take a similar spin. For example, Galio, who functions primarily like a tank, but also as a mage. Hard CC ability, damage reduction and AOE burst. Melee potential means exactly what it sounds like. Sion has reasonably high attack power, armor reduction an a immobilizing ability and his passive is completely melee.

RalanrJul 31, 20162 votes

So because he can melee and melee well, he's a juggernaut?

Then why not make Nautilus a juggernaut?

ThirdEyeCrowJul 31, 20161 votes

Nautilus IS a "juggernaut", or at least he could be. The only thing that I would say doesn't make him one, is because his Q gives him good mobility/gap closer. It can be argued that Sion's ult gives him mobility, but it's not nearly as practical as Nautilus's Q. He could almost be an assassin if he was stronger/faster.

RalanrJul 31, 20164 votes

...what is a juggernaut to you?

ThirdEyeCrowJul 31, 20162 votes

To me, a Juggernaut is tanky melee fighter that has limited mobility. Their only gap closers are slows or speed ups. They damage, they take damage, they chase alright but their weakness is being big slow moving/slow attacking bastards. They snowball. That's champs like Illaoi, Darius, Mordekaiser, Nasus. Late game they can turn into tanky-ass carries.

ModWulf HelhammerJul 31, 20163 votes

A juggernaut is a carry champ, that sacrifices range, mobility, and CC for damage and tankiness. Imagine if Illaoi had more CC then her little conditional slow: how do you think that would be?

Sion is not a juggernaut in game terms. He is a tank/fighter. He bring me CC, engage, and some light AoE damage, nothing on the level of a carry.

ThirdEyeCrowAug 14, 20162 votes

Illaoi has two ranged abilities, including a ranged passive and an incredible CC. The only things that make a Juggernaut a Juggernaut are their limited mobility, durability and melee damage. Sion IS a juggernaut in game terms.

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/gameplay-update-juggernauts

AbyssphereAug 2, 20163 votes

When Riot did the juggernaut update they specifically said that they were supposed to be champions with very little CC. I don't know where your definition of "juggernaut" came from but Sion being packed with CC is an argument against him being one, not an argument for him being one. He doesn't fit the definition of a juggernaut at all outside of being tanky.

ThirdEyeCrowAug 14, 20161 votes

I just looked at Riot's official update article. They never once "specifically" state they were supposed to be champs with "very little" cc. He is both a Juggernaut and a tank. Disagree all you want. You don't make logical arguments against the fact that he is both a Juggernaut and a tank.

JbelsJul 31, 20164 votes

{quoted}

His melee potential makes him a juggernaut, sorry. If he functions primarily like a tank, then that's just how he functions primarily. He is a unique champion, that's the only difference here.

Sion main here, NOT a juggernaut. Juggernauts are defined by low to no CC, high damage. Volibear, Olaf, Darius, Mundo, these are juggernauts. Sion is a tank

ThirdEyeCrowAug 14, 20161 votes

Whose definition? Because that is not how the game defines them. CC is not a determining factor. The only champions that are particularly associated with CC are tanks. Tanks have high CC and durability... that's it. There are assassins with limited to no CC and high damage. If that's your definition, then there are plenty of carries to fit the bill. In fact, I'd even say the majority. Juggernauts are tanky, low mobility and melee. Period.

JbelsAug 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Whose definition? Because that is not how the game defines them. CC is not a determining factor. The only champions that are particularly associated with CC are tanks. Tanks have high CC and durability... that's it. There are assassins with limited to no CC and high damage. If that's your definition, then there are plenty of carries to fit the bill. In fact, I'd even say the majority. Juggernauts are tanky, low mobility and melee. Period.

Uh...by RIOT'S definition. They have said over and over again "Juggernauts trade CC for Damage. They tend to have little to no CC, but have huge damage to make up for it." If Sion were a juggernaut, his damage would actually scale into the late game, but it doesn't. It's very relevant early, not so relevant in the mid game, and almost non-existent in the late game. Every juggernaut in the game can build the same tank items and one damage item that Sion builds, and out-damage him in droves.

So I'll say it one more time. Tanks have good, plentiful, reliable CC, and damage that falls off. Juggernauts have little to no CC (Darius and Volibear are literally the only Juggernauts that have "hard" CC), but they are taken for their damage, not their CC. Their CC is for the sole purpose of staying on someone long enough to do damage, not for winning teamfights.

CerealBoxOfDoomJul 31, 20161 votes

He is a juggaurnaut with a funny ult but its more appropriate just to call him a fighter

I mean for fucks sake he fights you even if you win the fight

garren9Jul 31, 20162 votes

Try comparing his damage to Darius Garen Illaoi . He has 3 cc abilites 2 of which are aoe hard cc and his damage falls off hard after early game.

TheOvermindJul 31, 20161 votes

"Hurr durr , his description is "the undead juggernaut" , therefore he is a juggernaut, duh."

Ye cuz his damage is comparable to darius' illaoi's and nasus'.

Kids are fkn downvoting your thread. Take my upvote.

garren9Jul 31, 20161 votes

This is hurting me so bad. [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Shrek LuigiAug 1, 20161 votes

A juggernaut is a statball melee champion that has the tradeoff of a low sphere-of-influence and no reliable gapcloser for a high damage-to-survivability ratio.

Skarner has one of the most oppressive CCs in the game and has been aknowledged as a Juggernaut by Riot, so I think there are a few people in this thread who are Dead Wrong as to what a Juggernaut is.

VoidStaresBackAug 1, 20161 votes

Skarner has been officially redefined as a Vanguard by Riot, as a point of fact, which is a tank class (specifically, the offensive tanks).

garren9Aug 2, 20161 votes

Actually, Riot did reclassify Skarner as a tank.

VoidStaresBackAug 2, 20161 votes

Yes, that's what I said. Reclassified as a Vanguard, aka Offensive tank.

garren9Aug 3, 20161 votes

Aaaah when I posted that your comment wasn't there already.

VoidStaresBackAug 3, 20161 votes

Lolz.

On my screen you responded to my message rather than the one I was responding to, so I think it was a misclick on your part :p

Happens to everyone, my friend.

The Yetii RiderAug 2, 20161 votes

Like Cancerous Cancer said, Sion's title has 'juggernaut' in the name. Really really big clarity issue on Riot's part.

I mean, they changed Mordekaiser's title. Why not change Sion's? Make him 'the Undead Champion' or 'the Undead Behemoth' or 'the Undead Titan'. There are plenty of ways to describe a hulking mauler without using a game term.

RogueWillAug 2, 20161 votes

Honestly aside from his ult Sion has really limited mobility (one of the characteristics of a juggernaut) and considering his ult is not what you call reliable you could pair him up with other juggernaut that have mobility options (Garen, Volibear, Skarner)

Honestly Sion is a mix of both, he deosn't have the DPS to be called a juggernaut but he has the tools for it. He has moderate CC but none of it is quite reliable (besides his slow) so he doesn't have the utility to shine as a tank. The champion I see the most similarity with is Poppy so whatever Poppy is, sion is the same.

KillstradoAug 2, 20161 votes

I like how you all complain about a descriptive word rofl.

The definition is: a huge, powerful, and overwhelming force or institution.

Plus juggernaut from xmen literally runs as fast as he can in a somewhat straight path plowing through anything in his way....sound familiar?

Y'all need to quit trying to control how people talk, play, and choose champs. just play the damn game and mind your own business

Hexs FortuneAug 2, 20161 votes

He should be a juggernaut. Instead we get an all bark ,no bite, no damage, cc brick

RalanrAug 2, 20161 votes

No bite? He bites pretty hard.

AcidTheWarlockAug 2, 20161 votes

I mean, you can just build pure AD and have some fun.

And by fun I mean 10/11/0

RalanrAug 2, 20162 votes

Well yeah. I can go full AP Amumu and kill people by hugging them. Doesn't make Amumu an AP assassin.

AcidTheWarlockAug 2, 20162 votes

I'm just saying, people building full AD on Sion could be giving them the wrong idea.

And the name doesn't help either.

RalanrAug 2, 20161 votes

It really doesn't. Nor does the level 7 tank mastery title.

Does someone at Riot just enjoy watching the arguments on what is and what isn't a tank?

AcidTheWarlockAug 2, 20161 votes

I dunno, maybe Rito is just a bunch of trolls. After all, they made things like Aatrox Evelynn Mordekaiser exist in the same world as Yasuo Rengar Riven