Remove the stun from Lee ult.

Wolfram Oxford·Apr 24, 2016·205 votes·8,661 views

Lee sin's ultimate should not have a stun before or after him kicking. It is literally the worst feeling when you are hunted down by a Lee sin and he just fucks you by pressing R. No counter play at all.

231 Comments

LankPantsApr 25, 201651 votes

At bare minimum he should also have the stun applied to him so kick/flash stops being a thing.

TotalJerkApr 25, 201610 votes

It's called the cast time.

LankPantsApr 25, 201617 votes

No, he already has a cast time of about 0.3 seconds, he just cancels it if he flashes. What I'm suggesting is that he shouldn't be able to do that.

Monkey D LuffyApr 25, 201613 votes

I by no means defend Lee here but he shouldn't be able to use his 300 second summoner spell to guarantee a kill? Sorry but it's not only Lee who can do that.

But yeah, I think he shouldn't be able to flash after already using it.

Voluug13Apr 25, 201616 votes

Well, its apparently ''cancer'' when Annie secures a kill with Flash Tibbers but when Lee does it its fineeeeeee?

Monkey D LuffyApr 25, 20164 votes

Oh I'm not saying it's fine, I'm just saying we can't just look at Lee alone for this, for as example, there are champions like Annie, blitzcrank, thresh, malphite, I could go on, I was just saying not to use that part as something like it's unique to lee.

TaarkiApr 25, 20165 votes

They aren't saying that he shouldn't be able to flash and then kick, they are saying he shouldn't be able to start his kick, stunning the enemy, and then flash behind them to kick them in a different direction while they are stunned and cannot do anything about it.

SKT T1 LaFlameApr 25, 201615 votes

Probably because Tibbers is an instant AOE stun and not even comparable to Lee's kick

MhihnjApr 25, 20166 votes

it's actually a root for 0.25 seconds so that the target can't move. If the target moves during the cast time then it will be hard to kick the target in the intended direction

LankPantsApr 25, 201617 votes

Personally I just think it's BS that Lee can flash and change the direction of the kick after he starts the kick. I think either both people should be allowed to reposition or neither should. Definitely not only Lee as it works currently.

It's also definitely a stun, you can't cast or attack while effected by it.

doombotMECHAApr 26, 20162 votes

if somebody moves during vayne's condemn cast time, poppy's charge cast time, or alistar, headbutt, you'd call it "counterplay"

VasilisGreenApr 26, 20162 votes

You and all those who upvoted you seem to not know what input buffering is...

LankPantsApr 26, 20162 votes

Kick-flash isn't pure input buffering, if it was you'd kick then flash behind them. It's more animation cancelling than input buffering and either way it needs to die in a fire.

VasilisGreenApr 26, 20162 votes

Since you commented on that, i take it you know how input buffering works. I am not familiar with Lee's ult range but, the flash kick is used to either kick you as soon as you enter their range or flash behind you and kick you the other way. In the second case, if they are already in range, he should indeed kick first and flash later.

LankPantsApr 26, 20162 votes

if they are already in range, he should indeed kick first and flash later.

I don't think he should be able to do this at all. When he kicks you should go in the direction he targeted, not have it changed on you mid kick.

VasilisGreenApr 26, 20162 votes

well, he can't target where he will kick you. he just kicks you directly away from him. So, the flash is used to reposition and thus, manipulate the direction you will be thrown at. Well, i am not sure why does he flash mid kick, if it is indeed happening like that. If his R range is big enough, he should just kick you if you are in range and then flash if you pressed R-Flash unless you were out of range to begin with and just landed behind them after the flash.

Handin Out NapsApr 25, 201630 votes

Ayy Lee complaints, I was wondering when I would see the next one.

Remlap1223Apr 25, 20163 votes

When these sad sacks here feel like they haven't been paid attention to enough, a Lee thread comes out.

It's kinda sad right now considering that he was recently buffed and he's still considered shit right now. In before "LEE WUZ NEVAH SHIT!!1!"

Wolfram OxfordApr 25, 20166 votes

The only way Lee is considered bad is if the player isn't good.

Handin Out NapsApr 25, 20166 votes

Being good at Lee isn't easy, people with 125+ games can't even average a 50% winrate. You have to be a god at Lee to not be useless.

OH MAN NOT GOODApr 25, 201613 votes

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RatbertApr 25, 201619 votes

Like we can for every other skill? How is that fair?

OH MAN NOT GOODApr 25, 20169 votes

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RatbertApr 25, 201613 votes

Many other skills can be dashed partially out of, or at least as a last ditch repositioning. Except lee.

Guy Fox TeemoApr 25, 20167 votes

Um no, every knock has a stun, they only way to dash out is to qss/cleanse it, mid air.

LankPantsApr 25, 201614 votes

Most don't have a stun before they start though. When I get hit by most knockbacks I can disjoint the spell and make it not work by flashing over it. Ali head-butt and Poppy charge both work this way for example.

What Lee does is stun you, then kick you then stun you for about 0.1 seconds after you land. What people are suggesting is that one or both of the extra stuns before and after the kick get removed because it would make Lee Sin far more fair to play against.

Guy Fox TeemoApr 25, 20167 votes

alistars head butt has a stun, but you can dodge it because it has a travel time, lees kick does not since the short range of the spell and even if it did you couldnt' react quick enough,

KuboxApr 25, 201617 votes

You could argue that Lee kick has a cast time though.

Imagine if Annie's passive made it so her Q stunned you as soon as she cast it even if the projectile didn't hit you yet. That's basically what Lee ult does : He runs up to you, presses R, and then you suddenly get stunned even though he hasn't "kicked" you yet in his animation.

Lee's ult should definitely not be dodgeable, but having the power to reposition it as the target would be a great way to add counterplay to the skill. The question is would it be too much and would compensations be needed elsewhere.

LankPantsApr 25, 201613 votes

That's basically what Lee ult does : He runs up to you, presses R, and then you suddenly get stunned even though he hasn't "kicked" you yet in his animation.

This is how Skarner's ult used to work, Riot changed it to "promote healthier play from Skarner". Funny how that double standard works isn't it?

LankPantsApr 25, 20161 votes

lees kick does not since the short range of the spell and even if it did you couldnt' react quick enough,

I could react quickly enough to a Lee Sin ult to flash it, it's really not that hard. It's a noisy spell with a fair wind-up which make it fairly easy to react to.

Guy Fox TeemoApr 25, 20164 votes

The ability is instant though, and even if it did have a windup the animation would be like 1600 MS, in a range of 375 units, which would be inhumanely fast. You'd have to react at a speed of 8480 MS.

(MS = movespeed)

HawkefireApr 25, 20166 votes

I wouldn't mind that actually. Dashing out of it isn't exactly the easiest thing to do as you have to:

A) Actually have a dash in your kit.

B) Have that dash off cooldown (the most important one)

C) React fast enough to actually dash before he kicks you (because the animation is a second or less).

TotalJerkApr 25, 20163 votes

It's generally extremely obvious when a Lee Sin wants to kick you, so reacting isn't really that hard. It's not uncommon for pros to QSS even the most sudden kicks.

AstôlfoApr 25, 201613 votes

Oh boy, another QQ thread. And wait! Lee Sin is still trash. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Remlap1223Apr 25, 20166 votes

DID YOU JUST USE LOGIC ON THE BOARDS? BURN THE WITCH!

AstôlfoApr 25, 20167 votes

If I don't agree with whatever QQ about something being broken, I'm obviously automatically wrong, right?!1!1! xD

LatetotheRaceApr 25, 20164 votes

He still sees pro-play if I remember correctly, so he's obviously not that trash.

charcharmunroApr 25, 20169 votes

Nothing's worse than getting ganked by a Lee Sin, successfully maneuvering around his Q and such so he doesn't InSec you... Then he just clicks you anyway and holds you still for far longer than it feels like he should and does a shit-ton of damage because he built literally any AD.

Remlap1223Apr 25, 20168 votes

Making a Lee Sin thread on the boards is like putting a item 3512 in front of a Nasus .

KoKobotoApr 25, 20163 votes

Alistar got nerfed so that he cannot get in an auto attack before using his W Lee Sin should be nerfed the same way

ÑapoleoniApr 25, 20167 votes

Lee cannot auto attack when he is ulting.

OzkarApr 25, 20161 votes

But he can get one aa off when the target is flying away

At Least I WardApr 25, 20167 votes

jesus christ how broken

Sahn UzalApr 25, 20162 votes

The AA doesn't matter that much, being able to get a guarenteed Q hit after ulting is just unfair. I played a game as Lee, who im aweful at, build a Warrior and went tank after that, walked botlane R Q Q E Aaand Vayne's dead

JorenciceApr 25, 20162 votes

If she let you get into range without you haveing to use q first it's 100% her fault. She had 2 self peels against Melle and that's not even counting the support.

Sahn UzalApr 25, 20164 votes

I W'd to a minion. The Vayne over extended, that's 100% true. That does not take away from the fact that lee's kit is hilariously overloaded though.

ShadragonApr 26, 20161 votes

Safeguard and wards exist you know.

JorenciceApr 26, 20162 votes

And so does condemn and tumble. There is 0 excuses for a Vayne allowing him to get into Melle range without using q

ModAzure OleApr 25, 20163 votes

I don't think Lee Sin needs tweaking right now, but for what it's worth, the stun is consistent with other knockbacks. Both Alistar and Janna, for instance, have stuns that last the duration of the knockback plus a little.