Fizz Seastone Trident (W) active's damage changed to 10/15/20/25/30 (+.3 AP) from 10/20/30/40/50 (+.25 AP) Chum The Waters (R) now only amplifies magic damage.
I don't know if this handles the bruiser fizz issue but it's still a step in the right direction. Of course this is tentative information but I'm pretty excited about it. I have a feeling it will probably go through. I could be jumping the gun though.
What do you guys think?
THESuperStuntMan7 votesCall me the devil if you want, but I actually enjoyed playing bruiser Fizz. I'm sad that they're killing it instead of just nerfing it.
The Loveless1 voteswhy kill it when it's single-target based, compared to the stronger+aoe based AP fizz?
zzz
THESuperStuntMan2 votesExactly, AP Fizz outscales bruiser Fizz. Bruiser Fizz is just better at splitpushing and killing tanks. I don't really get why bruiser Fizz is such an issue.
The Loveless2 votesBecause it's different and "off-meta" according to people who don't even know what meta means. Sheep, basically.
Zeurth4 votesAren't the people playing AD Fizz sheep? 99.9% of people didn't play him AD before the LCS. Therefore I think sheep is more fitting there.
The Loveless1 votesI'm not arguing against that. It's a two way street.
Matezoide5 votesThen AP Fizz will come back, get nerfed and replaced by AD again and so on.
They also just buffed the ratio to .35 on the PBE.
Sniper 03 votesThen AP Fizz will come back, get nerfed and replaced by AD again and so on.
People still play ap fizz. AD has just been much more oppressive. They're removing ad increases on the ulti which should remedy the obnoxious amount of damage ad fizz can do.
Matezoide5 votesPeople still play ap fizz. AD has just been much more oppressive. They're removing ad increases on the ulti which should remedy the obnoxious amount of damage ad fizz can do.
It is just the Fizz cycle.
They are buffing his AP Build, it will make a come back when AD isnt so good anymore. Then when his AP Build is nerfed as usual, Riot will give him compensation buffs that will allow a different build (Bruiser, Full AD, Tank, whatever) to dominate. Then he will get nerfed again and get another AP Ratio buff.
Thats just how Fizz works. Riot cant nerf him without giving compensation that pushes him over the edge elsewhere.
Heckin Support2 votesThis is what happens when you make a super hard champion to balance with a super overloaded kit. This is the type of reasons champions like olaf and poppy were nerfed and barely played because if they were even decently good they'd be god like. It makes me so sad to see champions who can't be fine tuned. They are either too good or just bad.
Lugg5 votesUh, that's a buff for Fizz since he will now stack AP and still 2 shot people.
Sohleks15 votesThat's in no significant way a buff. The measly 0.05 ap ratio boost is compensation for the base damage loss. It'll take 400 ap just to break even. Sure, if you somehow get hundreds of ap early game or notice 10 more damage on his auto at the end of the game it's a buff.
W does deserve a nerf. It's so effective to rank up as the damage scales in 3 ways per skill point... For months and months I've been ranking W to 3 by level 5 as AP Fizz as it's that strong having consistent damage output. Has the side benefit of letting me use E more freely for its utility. You really don't need the waveclear of E that early if your lane opponent is turret hugging or all chummed up; you get E maxed at level 10 anyways- only 1 level later than normal- with 3 points in W. I'll be sad if it seems the W nerf pigeon holes me into maxing E which it just might, but I'll deal.
The loss of the physical damage amp is a massive nerf to trinity and/ or bork fizz. AD Fizz damage is gonna take a sharp dive. I've played the PBE adjustments; he'll still be dangerous singling out a squishy champ mid game, but late game the loss is quite noticeable. I think AD-Tank Fizz builds will be on the way out. It'll be massively harder dueling fighter champs, but counterpicking squishy top laners may still work.
Losing physical damage multiplier will hit AP Fizz early game too. A few autos and a possible sheen proc not getting multiplied during ult may give enemies about 50 more hp to work with. Kind of significant in a level 6 1v1. But other than that not really. An extra 5% magic damage from the ult effect would cover it.
Vistha Kai1 votesNow it went from .3 to .35 AP.
Jefftiffy1 votesThat's in no significant way a buff. The measly 0.05 ap ratio boost is compensation for the base damage loss. It'll take 400 ap just to break even. Sure, if you somehow get hundreds of ap early game or notice 10 more damage on his auto at the end of the game it's a buff.
W does deserve a nerf. It's so effective to rank up as the damage scales in 3 ways per skill point... For months and months I've been ranking W to 3 by level 5 as AP Fizz as it's that strong having consistent damage output. Has the side benefit of letting me use E more freely for its utility. You really don't need the waveclear of E that early if your lane opponent is turret hugging or all chummed up; you get E maxed at level 10 anyways- only 1 level later than normal- with 3 points in W. I'll be sad if it seems the W nerf pigeon holes me into maxing E which it just might, but I'll deal.
The loss of the physical damage amp is a massive nerf to trinity and/ or bork fizz. AD Fizz damage is gonna take a sharp dive. I've played the PBE adjustments; he'll still be dangerous singling out a squishy champ mid game, but late game the loss is quite noticeable. I think AD-Tank Fizz builds will be on the way out. It'll be massively harder dueling fighter champs, but counterpicking squishy top laners may still work.
Losing physical damage multiplier will hit AP Fizz early game too. A few autos and a possible sheen proc not getting multiplied during ult may give enemies about 50 more hp to work with. Kind of significant in a level 6 1v1. But other than that not really. An extra 5% magic damage from the ult effect would cover it.
He doesn't need an early game. I hate when people say that assassin's need an early game. They don't. Their power is supposed to be back loaded but thats how everyone else is now. So the assassin just blows up all of the sudden while the enemy mid now has to hide under tower because their power is even more back loaded). Fizz in this case has the ability to dive and run away practically untouched. It's the same reason people dislike Zed, but he only has the frames on his ult and even so, they are shorter and have about the same CD as Fizz's ult. People don't seem to realize that sometimes back loading all the power onto an ult is a bad thing and sometimes loading all the power onto abilities is a bad thing. The key to a healthy assassin is putting power past 6 so that you still have time to shut them down and it doesn't flip the game so fast. If you back load the power to even level 9-10 you make a much healthier champion.
JedenVojak1 votesChampions get balanced around having a strong early game or late game. Entire classes do not.
Jefftiffy1 votesChampions get balanced around having a strong early game or late game. Entire classes do not.
Actually look at the class. 
(pre-rework)
JedenVojak1 votesI don't think Talon or Leblanc are weak early though? Talon has decent AOE waveclear and Leblanc is ranged.
Jefftiffy1 votesI don't think Talon or Leblanc are weak early though? Talon has decent AOE waveclear and Leblanc is ranged.
They follow the pattern of being able to be bullied somewhat until they hit 6 then turning the lane into hell for their opponent. Some have slightly more early game than others, but they are all relatively the same early game.
A Miss Fortune5 votesRemember when the old during Season 4 walked into lane with nothing but a Flask and a few pots, and as soon as he hit level 2 he all in'ed you and killed you.
Yeah, well, now It's level 6 instead of level 2.
gj Riot, kill AD Fizz just to buff AP Fizz's ratios.
ModAcademy Kayn4 votesIt's gonna take 400 AP for the damage to break even with the base damage nerf. This is a nerf to his early game to anything...
Wait am I defending Fizz? What am I saying?! SOMEONE KILL ME
A Miss Fortune2 votesI don't really care they need to gut Fizz until he's unviable or just rework him. Even if he ever is balanced he'll never be healthy for the game with his troll pole. That ability alone is probably one of the strongest in the game since it has infinite gold value whereas you could probably judge the value of something like his ult or whatever.
Sniper 04 votes[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wmz048jJ,comment-id=000700000001,timestamp=2015-08-25T02:44:44.905+0000)
I don't really care they need to gut Fizz until he's unviable or just rework him. Even if he ever is balanced he'll never be healthy for the game with his troll pole. That ability alone is probably one of the strongest in the game since it has infinite gold value whereas you could probably judge the value of something like his ult or whatever.
I completely disagree. The point of a nerf isn't to gut a champion... Even if some champions need it (skarner) And even then it's not to make them unviable. Fizz has meaningful counter play. == Just on that fizz hating bandwagon eh?
A Miss Fortune2 votesThere's counterplay to invulnerability?
Fizz can't exist as a strong champion in his current state because if he does, he's too overbearing.
Fizz's kit negates all of his weaknesses. Which mainly is how squishy he is and easy he is to blow up. His passive lets him ignore up to 14 AA damage and his trollpole is a free Zhonya's WITH a dash on it on a short cooldown. It's like a CertainlyT champion, they're extremely strong with virtually no weaknesses since their kits totally negate it all if played somewhat correctly, you don't even have to master Fizz to realize it.
Sure you could say he falls off late game but I'd say otherwise when your ADC gets blown up in less than a second.
Sure you could say that he needs to get kills to be relevant, but that's like saying any assassin can't just instakill a squishy after a few items. Even then he has a slow and a slow/knockup/knockback on just one ability which also is amazing to use as an initiator so he still is very relevant and ever does fall behind to the point where he's useless like Katarina for example.
I'm not on the Fizz hating bandwagon, but I think Riot needs to stop "nerfing" him which are almost always followed up by small buffs and fix the champion.
Anidan4 votesCouldn't you say that when pretty much any character is strong in a moba, and well-played, they're going to be overbearing as all hell? I have played League for a long, long time and in that time I have seen pretty much every single champion in the game be called 'overbearing', or some variation, when they're actually strong.
I have played DotA2 for a long time, and in that time I have seen pretty much every single hero in that game be called 'overbearing,' or some variation, when they're actually strong. Ever seen a fed Invoker? You'll never kill him the rest of that match until you're both at final build, and even then if he feels like he'll lose he'll just leave the fight.
Then we go back to League where we see champions like Yi, who becomes a team-slaughtering god if he becomes fed and enters teamfights at the right time ("if played somewhat correctly") because squishies will explode, letting him get off more Qs for invincibility and projectile disjointing. Or Cho'gath, who can becomes a squishy-demolishing deity himself if he goes the AP route, or an immovable wall of CC if he goes pure tank.
MOBAs in their own nature are damn-near impossible to balance, and honestly Fizz isn't even that huge a problem in just League itself. His biggest problems are symptomatic of greater problems in the game itself.
PastorWolf5 votesI wish they would just leave fizz alone.
TurquoiseYoshi3 votesI wouldn't mind if they put him in a balanced state before leaving him alone. Currently, his AD build is a bit too powerful.
The Loveless1 votesHow is ad more powerful than AP? If you could, don't leave out any of AP Fizz's strengths.
TurquoiseYoshi2 votesAP Fizz is an assassin. Pure damage and a mini-zhonia's. Has a ton of damage and can, most of the time, get out of a fight with his E.
AD Fizz is a bruiser. He still has a lot of damage, but now he can survive a bit longer and throw out a bunch of empowered AAs from his W.
The Loveless2 votesWould you say AD Fizz takes longer, or uses just about the same amount of time to kill a target?
I mean I used to try and make AD Fizz (glass cannon) work 2 seasons ago, way before AP Fizz was nerfed at the start of the season, so I'm kind of bothered by how the big aoe AP Fizz is getting buffed, while single-target AD Fizz is being phased out.
And I honestly only played Fizz once all year, but I've been buying skins when they go on sale. :'<
TurquoiseYoshi2 votesIt takes a bit longer as AD Fizz, but he is able to unload more total damage on different targets.
JedenVojak3 votesSo in the season of diversity they are killing yet another build.
DIVERSITY
TurquoiseYoshi2 votesWell, you can still build it, it's just not as OP now.
JedenVojak2 votesIt's not OP, and neither is AD fizz.
He already does less damage than AP fizz.
TurquoiseYoshi2 votesAD Fizz does less damage, but has tankyness. He's far more obnoxious, as he has actual survivability alongside his AAs that do bonus damage.
JedenVojak1 votesBe honest, you don't have a problem with AD Fizz's damage, you just hate Fizz in general, and don't like a tankier Fizz because he's harder to kill.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesHonestly, no, I don't have a problem with standard AP Fizz. His standard kit is actually pretty balanced in my opinion. However, the way his kit is designed on live, his AD build is able to do more total damage by abusing things that were originally supposed to be used by Assassin Fizz. So, the kit was changed.
JedenVojak3 votesPeople say things like this a lot.
Using abilities in your kit is not abusing a champion, anymore than using different items or runes is.
As for the ult change, they seem to be moving in the direction that you stated and are trying to kill AD fizz, which is unfortunate; characters should have more build diversity and options, not less. AD fizz may do more damage over a period of time, but it's not near the insta-burst of AP fizz; having different build options for champions just makes those champions more interesting overall, since you never know what they're gonna do.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesWell, technically, AD Fizz is still an option. You can still use his W and stand inside the enemy team, but now it does a bit less damage.
JedenVojak2 votesDoesn't AD Fizz not have an ultimate now?
Saying AD Fizz is still an option is like saying AP bruiser Soraka is still a thing. It's really not, because you're now punished for building a certain way, but you can still use all the same items.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesI'm starting to think you don't understand how AD Fizz works.
JedenVojak1 votesAs I understand it,
Builds 
and 
into full tank. The reason it was fine before is because he still had use of his ultimate which would amp his damage.
Is this not the case?
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesYes, exactly. He still gets AP (from the T-Force). That will still do a bit of damage, as well as give him power for his other abilities. It works a bit like old Tankko, where his AP ratios were so high that he didn't need to build AP to get a lot of damage off.
JedenVojak1 votesYes, exactly. He still gets AP (from the T-Force). That will still do a bit of damage, as well as give him power for his other abilities. It works a bit like old Tankko, where his AP ratios were so high that he didn't need to build AP to get a lot of damage off.
Uh, 30 AP you mean? Tank Ekko wasn't strong because of high AP ratios; it was high utility and high base damages. His base damage was nerfed and his AP ratios were increased to try to incentivize people to build AP instead of tank.
Riot is really taking the wrong approach about this whole thing: if people are going with a weird build over the intended build, then it means the intended build is not rewarding enough, and they should buff that, rather than not allowing people to build any other way at all.
TurquoiseYoshi1 votesI don't think the community would react very well to Fizz buffs. Hell, this incoming nerf was taken badly just because he now does more damage at 400 AP.
Sniper 01 votesPeople say things like this a lot.
Using abilities in your kit is not abusing a champion, anymore than using different items or runes is.
As for the ult change, they seem to be moving in the direction that you stated and are trying to kill AD fizz, which is unfortunate; characters should have more build diversity and options, not less. AD fizz may do more damage over a period of time, but it's not near the insta-burst of AP fizz; having different build options for champions just makes those champions more interesting overall, since you never know what they're gonna do.
Well I had more of an issue with tank fizz who would trade his burst for pretty substantial tank damage. He would also maintain the burst against squishier targets. Built botrk which deals physical damage as %hp damage, and trinity forces proc damage was physical damage while also coming along with some tank stats. All around it wasn't a bad item to build on fizz. It gives ad which contributes to q, ap which yeah, mana and hp, movement speed, attack speed, ad and ap. Overall it just is giving too much to fizz atm. It was pretty much the combination of this and the combination of his ult+q that would allow him to still burst down champs without having to actually build any real damage.
When I say they're killing ad fizz they're scaling back his power a lot to create a greater tradeoff for the build. You can still build him this way. His q applies on hit effects. In his current state building him tanky really isn't providing a great tradeoff from the ap build. He can still burst the targets he needs to regardless. It also gives him way more survivability. So the tradeoff wasn't great enough to make people actually consider one build over the other. I don't think they want you to flat out not consider it. This is pretty similar to what they did to ekko. There is way more reward than risk to go with the build as of right now.
As I understand it,
Builds
Is this not the case?
The ultimate won't contribute to their damage which, it really shouldn't have in the first place. However as a tank he could still use his ultimate as an engage. It still provides a slow and a minor knockup. So I can still see him being viable, but the tradeoff is going to be much more reasonable. His w will still do a % based on the remaining hp so all of this is still being applied on q. Ad/tank fizz will be in a much healthier state after this. Plus the ulti will still apply to his w because all of his skills are still magic damage. AD fizz's ad damage also scales on his q but is applied as applied as physical damage still so the physical damage portion won't benefit from it. This will create a tank fizz that is much more reliant on the residual damage rather than the front loaded damage that was coming from the physical damage on his q. I can still see ad bruiser/tank fizz being a threat. It just won't be as obnoxious as the current state.
Chespin20133 votesEh I don't think killing off ad fizz is a step in the right direction. Personally I find it very fun more fun than ap fizz. Is it bullshit that a assassin like fizz can build tank items and still deal damage yes. But the same can be said for the other way around look at J4 or Cho both can be build offensively, defensively, or even mixed. More or less this is just reducing diversity IMO. I think fizz just needs a nerf on his pole cd its really low when u have 40 cdr and to separate the good fizz's from the bad ones they need to learn u can't just spam abilities and make it work. The CD on his E has to be increased I think this is what most people think whats really wrong with him as a whole and more or less needs to be changed. TLDR: AD Fizz shouldn't have to die off for Riot to just increase the CD on Fizz's E since its most problematic ability on his kit.
Voluug131 votesCho when build offensively is just a immobile sack of HP without resistances hyper reliant on hiting a very delayed skillshot.
Cho gets hate because he counters assassins that dive him, even if they should have roamed instead.
And J4 is a bruiser, he is supposed to build mixed or full offensive items.
Chespin20131 votesIf you read their description J4 and Cho are labeled as a tanks
Voluug132 votesI have seen a lot of dubious labels.
And Shen is also a tank, but he has, iirc, less base hp that MF.
Cho is a tank only when you build him as one, just like every single tank in existance. He only gets free HP for using his ult to eat minions instead of having defensive abilities or buffs, but that HP only makes him a tanky mage and little else when building full AP on him, at the cost of having gigatons of counterplay. The problem is that counterplay isnt ''one shot him''. Its poke him down and zone him, or ignore him and roam and get other lanes rolling on gold.
Sniper 03 votesCho when build offensively is just a immobile sack of HP without resistances hyper reliant on hiting a very delayed skillshot.
Cho gets hate because he counters assassins that dive him, even if they should have roamed instead.
And J4 is a bruiser, he is supposed to build mixed or full offensive items.
Cho gets hate because his knockup also has a slow on top of it and on top of that he has a cone silence so he can silence an entire team if their positioning is bad. Fizz can't dismantle an entire teamfight with 1 skill he lacks any hard cc outside of his shark which isn't even used for cc and it's generally limited to the person hit if the opposing team is intelligent.
J4 with full offensive items is just stupid... His entire kit is about hard engage without any way to viably escape if he doesn't get a proper follow up. The only reason j4 should be building full offense is if he's snowballed that far ahead otherwise he's just a hindrance to his team. He also shouldn't need to escape if you engaged at a proper time.
Fizz is relatively easy to deal with if you have proper peel. He can't actually deal damage in stasis so when he actually goes for his combo you can pretty reliably cc him off of the carry. QSS doesn't hurt either as it will remove the enhanced damage bonus. AP fizz is in a much healthier state than ad bruiser fizz. AP fizz you actually trade off a lot of survive-ability. If you wanna hate on a champ hate on someone who deserves it 1 part of his kit is remotely op and it's not really that strong. Yeah it's strong but you have champs who can stealth consistently 
, who can kit extremely well 
, who have stupid escape mechanics 
. My point is, fizz isn't a super terribly op champion. I feel that the hate is just part of the witch hunt that the masses participate in. You always gotta have one champ to hate. If no one is actually super broken at any given time people revert back to teemo hate.
edit Not saying eve is op but her stealth is a bit broken. Just because the mechanic is broke, doesn't mean the champ is broke.
This whole discussion was supposed to be about how ad bruiser fizz is getting gutted because it's not part of the intended play pattern for fizz. Therefore ad bruiser fizz needed to have it's strength pulled back. It was providing fizz an avenue for massive sustained damage and very little risk, it pretty much removed a massive weakness and really only cost his burst potential which honestly wasn't a massive trade off for the amount of survivability he receive.d Fizz's main purpose is to be a slippery ap assassin. If he's using his e to engage act on that. If he uses his q to engage cc his ass.
Also, if you think I'm a fizz lover, look at my match history. lol I'm a zac main. I'm really just tired of people trying to get riot to gut champions that don't really deserve it.