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Let's talk about healing and its counters....

Spicy Coon Eggs··11 votes·3,926 views

So, healing, there are over 45 champions that can currently heal in one way or another (lets not talk about summoner spells, items and runes), however there are 2 champions that can apply Grievous Wounds (Varus, Katarina).... I do not understand why there are so many champions that can heal (and they keep getting introduced) but riot hesitates to introduce champions with Grievous Wounds (Most Grievous Wounds effects were removed btw, Mf, Fizz, Gp..) I don't think that its ok to have this many healing effects and like 2 champs that can reduce healing, 3 items (one for each role so if the items don't suit you or the game ur fucked, ) and ignite. I think there should be more options when it comes to Grievous Wounds what do u think ?

20 Comments

Teridax6813 votes

The 3 base items that provide Grievous Wounds are either core to an entire class of champions (i.e. Morellonomicon), or very cheap counters (i.e. Bramble Vest and Executioner's Calling), so if you are looking for sources of Grievous Wounds in the game, there are plenty enough already. More generally, though, the counterplay to healing should not be to pick a champion with Grievous Wounds, and counterpicking generally should not constitute the entirety of counterplay (nor should counter-itemization either). If you feel healing in the game is excessive or uninteractive, that's a potentially valid criticism, but I don't think that should entail loading up many more kits with Grievous Wounds on the off-chance that they run up against a champion with sustain.

Spicy Coon Eggs1 votes

{quoted}

The 3 base items that provide Grievous Wounds are either core to an entire class of champions (i.e. Morellonomicon), or very cheap counters (i.e. Bramble Vest and Executioner's Calling), so if you are looking for sources of Grievous Wounds in the game, there are plenty enough already. More generally, though, the counterplay to healing should not be to pick a champion with Grievous Wounds, and counterpicking generally should not constitute the entirety of counterplay (nor should counter-itemization either). If you feel healing in the game is excessive or uninteractive, that's a potentially valid criticism, but I don't think that should entail loading up many more kits with Grievous Wounds on the off-chance that they run up against a champion with sustain.

First of all, I don't think that healing is excessive, un-interactive or broken atm, but I do think that if your enemy picks a team comp based around healing and shielding, there should be MORE answers. Morello's is really good but it doesn't actually achieve the goal it was intended to achieve. (The healing reduction applies only when your target is below 35% and that is not always going to happen or matter at that point, also people buy it for its stats not the passive.) Mortal reminder/ Exe's is in fact a good choice but if you want to go into a last whisper item, Lord Dominik's is much better vs tanks.(You are kinda forced to chose from these 2 since getting them both is not efficient) Thormnail and bramble vest don't work versus everything and everyone and it only works if the target hit you. Therefore is the enemy is ap-excessive tank doesn't have options.

I think that there should be more Grievous Wounds champs and you shouldn't be forced into buying one of 3 items. I do think that 3 anti-heal items are sufficient but when it comes to champions, only 2 is a bit low (there used to be 5).

Teridax681 votes

By that same logic, we should have more champions with Yasuo's Wind Wall mechanic in case we want to counter skillshots, or team untargetability to counter point-and-click skills, or a mass cleanse to counter crowd control, and so on. There is a vast amount of mechanics in this game that can be pinpointed and isolated, that does not mean other champions need to be built specifically to counter those mechanics. Moreover, there are preexisting mechanics that already are well-equipped to act as counters: burst applied in quick succession tends to work well against persistent sustain, for example, because it can kill a target before their healing really kicks in. Targeted disables can do a great job of preventing supports from laying down clutch heals, and displacement can help isolate that support, or a target in need of healing. Just because a mechanic isn't assigned a label saying it counters X mechanic doesn't mean that such a counter does not exist, and generally I think League would do well do rely more on these subtler and more general counters, rather than hard counters like Grievous Wounds.

One of the reasons I also personally advise against increasing the presence of targeted counter-mechanics like Grievous Wounds is that they tend to make balancing harder in the long run, and often make champions countered by those mechanics even less healthy. The increasing prevalence of GW is largely responsible for increasing the amount of healing across the board, for example, which peaked during the enchanter meta of last season, where their healing and shielding were inflated to such high amounts that marksmen became practically impossible to kill. This problem still persists to a lesser extent to this day. The harder you push against a specific feature, the harder that feature has to push back to remain balanced, and that typically leads to a situation where, in absence of that counter, the feature in question easily becomes overbearing. This can also be seen on champions like Zed or Malzahar, who suffer in metas where their counters are common (e.g. Stopwatch/Zhonya's and Cleanse QSS, respectively), but who are otherwise tremendously oppressive against targets who don't buy those counters. In a game environment where QSS didn't exist, Malzahar would never be allowed to have his current play pattern around his ult, for example, and that would likely be better for everyone.

Kubox1 votes

That's mostly a Morello issue. Many people have stated in the past that the item's intended use is not in line with the GW passive and that it should be removed and given a proper item.

Riot sadly doesn't seem to agree.

Nahui6 votes

Because then the Soraka mains of the would join hands and cry out in pain together which hurts riot’s soul.

Grievous wounds I’m okay with. I’m just waiting for the day they introduce a grievous wounds for Shields.

Jaspers2 votes

How about, and hear me out, reduce all healing in the game by 33% and remove Grievous Wounds entirely.

All of it, from lifesteal to Nami's W, all the healing Vlad or Swain gets etc. GW reduces healing by 40% anyway so after those that can heal still have okay healing due to it not going down by 40% but only 33%. Some champs are too easily countered by just buying Bramble. Against Aatrox, Trundle or Fiora top? Buy Bramble.

Without Grievous Wounds healing champs can be properly balanced because the idea that there is a few items that counter their entire idea is surely a reason why if you don't get the stat they can become a problem.

PokladnicaZla2 votes

Let's introduce limitations to healer,whp tho annoying have CD and a mana cost,but let's leave ADCs with life-steal to heal themselves to full HP untouched.

Not saying your wrong or your point isn't valid,but nerfing only enchanters while the combination of life-steal and healing is a collective issue.

Jaspers1 votes

{quoted}

Let's introduce limitations to healer,whp tho annoying have CD and a mana cost,but let's leave ADCs with life-steal to heal themselves to full HP untouched.

Not saying your wrong or your point isn't valid,but nerfing only enchanters while the combination of life-steal and healing is a collective issue.

My idea would nerf lifesteal too (unless you got that) and wouldn't affect shields. Many healing champs are naturally countered by buying a single GW item. Yet if they don't have that healer on the enemy team, it might be a case that an enemy adc can buy lifesteal without worry of grievous wounds affecting them because you don't have to buy the item to counter anyone.

Keeping in mind compensation would be done to certain champs. If you reduce all healing from enchanters give them power elsewhere or lower the costs/cooldown of the abilties that heal.

But alas, just an idea.

KennysDreamGirl1 votes

he did say all healing

Zed genius2 votes

Healing should be the least of our worries for league balanced nowadays tbh

Spicy Coon Eggs1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zed genius,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wi1qFZEs,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-02-06T14:29:12.950+0000)

Healing should be the least of our worries for league balanced nowadays tbh

This is not a post to bash on healing or state that it is broken, its a post to see your opinion on the fact that there are almost no anti-heal champions atm.

Mordepool1 votes

{quoted}

This is not a post to bash on healing or state that it is broken, its a post to see your opinion on the fact that there are almost no anti-heal champions atm.

Play champ. Buy one of 3 items. You are now an anti healing champion

Bârd2 votes

No. We don't need more options against healing.

If anything, we need less.

It's already too easy to deal with.

item 3165 is the single best AP item in the game. item 3123 is an 800 gold counter to any heal reliant champion, and it builds into item 3033 for late. item 3076 is a counter to every heal reliant champion except Vladimir Fiddlesticks and it builds into item 3075.

On top of that, everyone and their mother is running Unsealed Spellbook, so they can just swap to summoner 14 and have it up every fight if they don't want any of these.

Spicy Coon Eggs2 votes

{quoted}

No. We don't need more options against healing.

If anything, we need less.

It's already too easy to deal with.

item 3165 is the single best AP item in the game. item 3123 is an 800 gold counter to any heal reliant champion, and it builds into item 3033 for late. item 3076 is a counter to every heal reliant champion except Vladimir Fiddlesticks and it builds into item 3075.

On top of that, everyone and their mother is running Unsealed Spellbook, so they can just swap to summoner 14 and have it up every fight if they don't want any of these.

The fact that unsealed spellbook is in the game and works right now is just a coincidence.

item 3165 Is bought for the stats not so much the Grievous Wounds, also you only apply Grievous Wounds when your target is below 35% health item 3075 item 3076 Are not suited for every situation and they don't work unless you hit the goddamn tank. item 3033 This is in my opinion the only good option but even this one has its problems, with so many tanks item 3036 is sometimes more than necessary.

And i would like to see champions that have Grievous Wounds in their kits somehow, not so much more items.

Arcade Lulu1 votes

Doesn't Darius apply Grievous Wounds or something?

I'm not 100% sure

Spicy Coon Eggs2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Lulu,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wi1qFZEs,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-02-06T15:20:59.574+0000)

Doesn't Darius apply Grievous Wounds or something?

I'm not 100% sure

No he doesn't and never had.

Arcade Lulu1 votes

Oh yeah. He applies the bleed thing right?

Sorry, I've never played him :D

Reaper Soraka1 votes

I think it's for the same reason they changed Veigars Ult from enemy AP to missing HP. The innate affect is such a hard counter that it can make or break a game at champ select.

I don't really mind that people buy mortal reminder/morello to apply grievous wounds, at least it's later in the game and they have to do something for it. If people were just given it for free they'd have to make healing more powerful to balance around it...then making players who decide not to counter be forced into mortal or be outsustained too hard.

It's a vicious cycle that I don't think they'll ever truly balance.

Lios Ashenblade1 votes

Makes me miss grog soaked blade

Colton1471 votes

DrMundo item 3070

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