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Riot, your ranked system is broken. PLEASE address this issue...

Nethrom··17 votes·7,789 views

The TL;DR opening (closing at the bottom): I shouldn't have to play against Plat 5-3 players as a Gold 4 just to get promoted to Gold 3 and have to do it even more just to get to Gold 2.

The actual: I am working on climbing elo, and for a long time now, I have been playing against players who are several tiers higher than me. This has been happening ever since the horrible placement system somehow put me in Silver 4...But, of course, I am a patient guy so I just decided to start climbing. Sure enough climb I did. And the games were very easy and actually I felt a bit bad because there I was way below where I actually SHOULD have been (for real this time) and just crushing all these silver games and ruining the time of 5 other people (enemy team) game after game. It felt like i was smurfing, and it wasn't enjoyable for me or anyone else...

So by the time i reach Silver 1, my MMR was substantially higher than my actual rank was showing, and I was going against Gold 2/3 players consistently. That's fine, gold is also a bit simple. But of course, last season, if you severely outmatched the tier you were in, then you would skip a tier or two, so I patiently figured that instead of going from Silver 1 to Gold 5, I would go to at least Gold 4 or something, since I was already playing against gold 3 people.

Alas, I beat my promo's and ended up in Gold 5.....alright then, that's fine. Let me just climb one more tier, I am sure it will make sense after I beat Gold 5, right?

Nope, get promoted to gold 4. By this time I am constantly against Gold 1 and Plat 5 players, on a team of other gold 1's. And then there I randomly am...a lowly Gold 4...who ends up carrying the game anyway.

So, by the time I am in my promo's I am going against Plat 5-3 players. At this time I figure the logic is SO absolutely broken that it would only put me in Gold 3, so I patiently get through promo's quite handily and get my promotion....to Gold 3....and now I get to climb through Gold 3 going against Plat players.

At this rate, before I even reach Platinum, I will be playing against Diamond enemies.

So can someone PLEASE explain to me why this ends up being logical? How is it that in order to get just to Platinum, I have to beat out ALL the platinum players in the world?

TL;DR closing: Basing your matchmaking on MMR and not the actual tier you're in makes it a completely broken, unbalanced system, and I shouldn't have to beat people 4 tiers higher than me just to get to 3 tiers lower than them.

41 Comments

RiotWookieeCookie16 votes

Hey Nethrom,

I think I see your point that sometimes it can be confusing to players how the process of them being matched works. There's probably some room for improvement to clarity.

No doubt you've heard that your rank Tier is not the same as your MMR. When you press play, the system won't go, "Nethrom is Gold 3! I will find other Gold 3 Players!"

Instead it will go "Nethrom has XXXX MMR! I will match him against other XXXXX MR players". I figured I would poke around in our tools and op.gg to take a look at your team mates and opponents in recent ranked 5 games and there wasn't that much weirdness.

They've all been between Gold 3 and Plat 5; and share similar MMR as you.

The plat 5 players may seem scary, but it's likely their MMR is a bit below average, and it's possible they are on a downward swing when they play against you. If they don't improve it's possible they'll end up being demoted to gold.

I did double check your MMR though to be safe that something weird might not be going on, and it looks like it's right on target for a Gold 3 Player. It's also pretty cool to see you're on a climb still, no doubt if you stick it out you'll make your goals before the end of the season.

Nethrom3 votes

The reason I bring it up is because I check each game and it's a consistent pattern that I am going against people multiple tiers higher than me. If I see an outlier, say, a Plat 4 randomly showing up in my gold 4 games, then I don't see that as cause for concern at all. The problem I have is when they are ALL Gold 1+. If what you're saying is true and there are that many people several tiers ahead of me who are the same MMR as me...why am I still not getting the skip-tier situation? Or we can look at it this way...if there are that many Gold 1 and Plat players who are at the same MMR as me, why aren't THEY in Gold 3? Doesn't that reveal a different flaw if not flawed on my end? There is certainly a problem here when there is that large of a variance between myself, my teammates, and my opponents, you can't deny that.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

if there are that many Gold 1 and Plat players who are at the same MMR as me, why aren't THEY in Gold 3?

The system is extremely lenient about demotions from plat 5 to gold 1. You have to drop all the way down to a gold 5 MMR before it'll demote you out of plat. Thus, you'll see a bunch of plat 5 players as you climb up towards making it there yourself; these guys were probably once playing at a plat level but they slacked off after achieving their goal for the season and now they're mid-gold tier players. The practical result of this is that you shouldn't trust P5 players in your gold games to be any good at all. Don't fear them, there's a good chance you're better than them if they're in your game.

As for the gold 1s with gold 3 MMR, they can exist due to grace periods and loss streak mechanics, but they won't exist for long.

One of the things that Riot does is match you into games with different average skill levels. You might be matched into a game where your team is on average gold 2, and you're the weakest player. Riot will also intentionally skew the matchmaking in some games, where you might be playing with or against a MMR disadvantage this game; if you win into the disadvantage, you get tons of LP. Both of these practices are intended to get a better reading on your skill level faster than just matching up a pure "all gold 3s play together" sort of thing.

I took a look at op.gg to see some of your recent ranked matches. I've bolded you in each of these: P5 G1 G1 G2 G3 vs G2 G2 G2 G2 G4 P5 P5 G3 G4 G4 vs P5 G1 G2 G2 G3 P5 G1 G2 G3 G3 vs P5 G2 G3 G3 G3 G2 G2 G3 G3 G3 vs P5 G2 G2 G2 G3

This looks like reasonable matchmaking quality to me.

Nethrom2 votes

Actually, all those games I played were as a Gold 4. So that definitely makes it a bit different, imo. I JUST hit G3 in my last game.

DaejinTye14 votes

Hey Nethrom,

I think I see your point that sometimes it can be confusing to players how the process of them being matched works. There's probably some room for improvement to clarity.

No doubt you've heard that your rank Tier is not the same as your MMR. When you press play, the system won't go, "Nethrom is Gold 3! I will find other Gold 3 Players!"

Instead it will go "Nethrom has XXXX MMR! I will match him against other XXXXX MR players". I figured I would poke around in our tools and op.gg to take a look at your team mates and opponents in recent ranked 5 games and there wasn't that much weirdness.

They've all been between Gold 3 and Plat 5; and share similar MMR as you.

The plat 5 players may seem scary, but it's likely their MMR is a bit below average, and it's possible they are on a downward swing when they play against you. If they don't improve it's possible they'll end up being demoted to gold.

I did double check your MMR though to be safe that something weird might not be going on, and it looks like it's right on target for a Gold 3 Player. It's also pretty cool to see you're on a climb still, no doubt if you stick it out you'll make your goals before the end of the season.

Bottom line here is though, if I as XXX Tier/Division am playing against people from 3-5 divisions higher than me and winning... I should just jump up into their divisions, seeing as how I am already playing at their level and beating them.

When I was climbing through gold and starting out in plat, I was against people more than 5 divisions higher than me both when Solo queueing and duo queueing with someone slightly lower ranked than I. Yet, I was still forced to go through 4 divisions in Gold and 2 so far in Platinum to reach P2 from G5. (Skipped G4 and P4 on the way to P2.)

Since our MMR is all that matters when matching us, make it be the only thing that matters when ranking us.... Right now you're basically telling people, "Yeah, you're seen as skilled as people in higher tiers and divisions, but we won't rank you any higher because you can't win 3 games in a row consistently, with the occasional 4 in a row." That's a direct spit in the face to solo queue players, because despite being considered as an equal to platinum players, you're only going to get gold level rewards. Same with Silver to gold and Platinum to diamond.

The only thing I care about getting in this game right now is that Diamond Border from season rewards... But after trudging through countless P1's and D5's, I finally ran out of steam at the bottom of P2... With what I had to go through just to get here, I should be Diamond 5 by default.

Bring back the old system where you just had a number. Screw this broken "Division+Promo series" bullsh** you have now.

Nethrom5 votes

Since our MMR is all that matters when matching us, make it be the only thing that matters when ranking us.... Right now you're basically telling people, "Yeah, you're seen as skilled as people in higher tiers and divisions, but we won't rank you any higher because you can't win 3 games in a row consistently, with the occasional 4 in a row." That's a direct spit in the face to solo queue players.

Pretty much exactly this paragraph. I like the tiers of ranking by metals, but not with it being as inaccurate as it is.

Boswick4 votes

Since our MMR is all that matters when matching us, make it be the only thing that matters when ranking us.... Right now you're basically telling people, "Yeah, you're seen as skilled as people in higher tiers and divisions, but we won't rank you any higher because you can't win 3 games in a row consistently, with the occasional 4 in a row." That's a direct spit in the face to solo queue players, because despite being considered as an equal to platinum players, you're only going to get gold level rewards. Same with Silver to gold and Platinum to diamond.

This right here is exactly why they never should've instituted the new ranking system and just stuck with elo/mmr. It's just the old system with a new coat of paint and a bunch of arbitrary BS added anyway.

SmokingPuffin4 votes

This right here is exactly why they never should've instituted the new ranking system and just stuck with elo/mmr. It's just the old system with a new coat of paint and a bunch of arbitrary BS added anyway.

The new ranking system has been phenomenally successful. The big 3 accomplishments:

  • Killed tactical dodging without an elo penalty
  • Fixed the ladder anxiety problem, resulting in more players playing ranked more often
  • Fixed the tier break problem, resulting in just barely gold/plat/diamond players not wanting to quit ranked to preserve season rewards.
Drukyul1 votes

Bring back the old system where you just had a number. Screw this broken "Division+Promo series" bullsh** you have now.

I said it as soon as they came out with the new system: it's just a sneaky way to get more players to play Ranked.

When Riot released the new system, they justified it by saying "well look how many more people are playing Ranked now, they obviously enjoy the new system!" instead of realizing the obvious: they're forcing people to play more games to get to their actual rank.

On the other hand, it cuts down on people getting to a rank they don't deserve, so there's that.

Big Sexy Himself9 votes

But why then have two completely different ranking systems? Why use a hidden MMR to match players together, but have a shown ranking that does not reflect the players skill? Shouldn't the ranked tiers represent a players skill?

This confuses me, because shouldn't a players skill be reflected in their rank? Shouldn't players of the same rank be pitted against other players of similar shown ranking? If you're telling us that a players rank is not indicative of their skills as a player, why not show a players MMR in-game to get a gauge on how well they are being matched up against?

SmokingPuffin3 votes

But why then have two completely different ranking systems? Why use a hidden MMR to match players together, but have a shown ranking that does not reflect the players skill? Shouldn't the ranked tiers represent a players skill?

Your league position is a lagging indicator. Over time it tracks your actual rating. If you go on a win streak, your LP will be lower than your MMR. If you go on a losing stream, the reverse happens. It still represents skill; it just reacts more calmly to recent events.

As for why we have it, the single most important reason to me is that you can have an LP penalty for dodging. This means that people can't tank their elo using the dodge penalty to go noob stomp and people still fear the dodge penalty enough to not dodge tactically. The other big reason is to repair ladder anxiety, which caused people that are e.g. just barely in the gold elo range to stop playing ranked in season 2.

SnowFall1 votes

Hey Nethrom,

I think I see your point that sometimes it can be confusing to players how the process of them being matched works. There's probably some room for improvement to clarity.

No doubt you've heard that your rank Tier is not the same as your MMR. When you press play, the system won't go, "Nethrom is Gold 3! I will find other Gold 3 Players!"

Instead it will go "Nethrom has XXXX MMR! I will match him against other XXXXX MR players". I figured I would poke around in our tools and op.gg to take a look at your team mates and opponents in recent ranked 5 games and there wasn't that much weirdness.

They've all been between Gold 3 and Plat 5; and share similar MMR as you.

The plat 5 players may seem scary, but it's likely their MMR is a bit below average, and it's possible they are on a downward swing when they play against you. If they don't improve it's possible they'll end up being demoted to gold.

I did double check your MMR though to be safe that something weird might not be going on, and it looks like it's right on target for a Gold 3 Player. It's also pretty cool to see you're on a climb still, no doubt if you stick it out you'll make your goals before the end of the season.

He doesn't want other Gold 3 players, he just wants them to be Gold, not Plats or Diamonds.

wolfax2 votes

If the plat 5s play at a gold level why shouldn't he be matched with them?

Daen1 votes

When you press play, the system won't go, "Nethrom is Gold 3! I will find other Gold 3 Players!"

Instead it will go "Nethrom has XXXX MMR! I will match him against other XXXXX MR players".

From a logical standpoint, why is this desirable? The current system essentially separates actual skill level from visual representation in a pretty arbitrary way. Ideally, wouldn't your visible rank be totally locked into the level at which you are match made?

Also, the promotional system makes the disparity even worse. If someone is consistently banging their head against the top of a Division but not quite getting the 3/4 win requirement, their MMR continues to increase while their visible rank stays the same.

wolfax1 votes

I'd assume so that your shown rating doesn't tank horribly because you had a bad streak.

t4tNoFp4Ve2 votes

No doubt you've heard that your rank Tier is not the same as your MMR. When you press play, the system won't go, "Nethrom is Gold 3! I will find other Gold 3 Players!"

It's exactly the point, the system should match you against your rank, or ranks should cease to exist, since it's 100% pointless

This is why you see so many people saying "you are in the rank you belong to", but this is absolutely wrong, because you often dont get paired with people of your rank, but many ranks higher

iamthegoatofwar3 votes

IMO if you're matching a gold 3 players with plat 1 players and they're still winning half the time there's something wrong with calling them gold 3.

Yaddar1 votes

now PLEASE will you adress the problem of getting Tier demoted without any kind of warning?

a close frend of mine got demoted from Plat V to Gold I and yes, his MMR might have been lower (it's supposed to be one full tier lower) but the fact that when Tier demotions were implemented you said that we were going to get a warning well in advance

and no, it was not ELO decay, he lost a ranked, got demoted.

and add the fact we have No way to know how our MMR is doing (the fact that we have to check 3rd party sitesshould be a red flag for you guys).. I'm actually quite scared of continue playing, getting on a losing streak and lose my Victorious skin (I'm gold V) ... I'm pretty sure that a system that disencourages some players to keep trying because it is not working as intended (no warnings) or lacks clarity (no way to check own MMR if not for 3rd party sites) should be look'd upon.

and my friend is not the only one who has reported the no-warning demotion.. that has been reported since the begining of season 4.

with stricter afk/feeder/leaver tools, why is Tier demotion still even a thing anyways?

my friend's name is "Beat Suicide" you can confirm it was no inactivity demoted, his MMR might be one full tier below, but still, no warning was issued whatsoever.

I don't plan to play anymore rankeds this season, Im quite worried of losing my own rewards.

zane yalgir1 votes

Hey Nethrom,

I think I see your point that sometimes it can be confusing to players how the process of them being matched works. There's probably some room for improvement to clarity.

No doubt you've heard that your rank Tier is not the same as your MMR. When you press play, the system won't go, "Nethrom is Gold 3! I will find other Gold 3 Players!"

Instead it will go "Nethrom has XXXX MMR! I will match him against other XXXXX MR players". I figured I would poke around in our tools and op.gg to take a look at your team mates and opponents in recent ranked 5 games and there wasn't that much weirdness.

They've all been between Gold 3 and Plat 5; and share similar MMR as you.

The plat 5 players may seem scary, but it's likely their MMR is a bit below average, and it's possible they are on a downward swing when they play against you. If they don't improve it's possible they'll end up being demoted to gold.

I did double check your MMR though to be safe that something weird might not be going on, and it looks like it's right on target for a Gold 3 Player. It's also pretty cool to see you're on a climb still, no doubt if you stick it out you'll make your goals before the end of the season.

this is a load of crap i cant got 20/9/10 take 2 ults and lose cause team cant do anyhting and then beilve some bullshit that there the same mmr. how about you realese your mmr calculator which you of course wont do becuase the moment you do there our people like me who can and will use it to making climbing easier. you say mmr is akin to skill? no sadly it isnt if it were i would be having such a shitty time getting out of bronze. agian 20/9/10 in a 4v5 where the duo had there parten afk yet no one else came close to me but there at my skill level.... what a load of bs

Destîny6 votes

Personally I hate promos. And it doens't even make sense to me. I want to win to increase my mmr, but if I have a really bad game or if I do happen to get placed with players that DC/afk then the system is holding my rank back from where my mmr is. At least with the elo system my rank was my elo. If I won I increased my elo, and my rank.

At the very least, promos for 5-2 shouldn't exist, only promos from bronze-silver; silver-gold; etc should exist.

Nethrom4 votes

Another really big flaw in their system. Promo's are basically DESIGNED to hold you back needlessly. They're not fun, theyre stressful, and yeah, a single afk or troll can just hold you back for NO reason.

Destîny1 votes

And going along with your OP, forcing you to have a 75% winrate over 4 games (one game to get into promos) is bogus. Especially when you're playing it against people ranked way higher than you (although mmr is the same)

Quietimp2 votes

MMR = matchmaking rating, I don't think anyone needs to argue with that... Tier is just icing on the cake for you to try and get 1 tier higher but it's all about wether or not your mmr is high enough or not.

Edit: I looked at your history and I see no problem at all, it's completly normal.

Nethrom1 votes

I know what MMR is, that's why I mentioned it up there. The issue isn't my history, it's the fact that I was in Gold 4, going to Gold 3, playing against Plat 5-3's. Do you not see the flaw in that logic?

Diljic1 votes

Have you lost a couple of promo series? That might be why you have higher MMR compared to your placing. It seems odd with your record that you haven't skipped a single division. I have gone Gold V > Gold III every time and I recently made a second account and went from Silver III > Silver I and Gold V > Gold III without even getting a series I just straight hit 100 LP and was promoted.

As for your gripe I agree 100%. It is quite annoying when you are going up against X to be promoted to Y when X is many divisions above Y.

Nethrom1 votes

Actually, now that you mention it, to this day I don't recall losing a single promo game this season. I could be mistaken, but certainly none recently.

OhBoyItsaMegaman1 votes

I was in the same situation as him on my other account, playing against Gold 3-2 in my promo games out of Silver, and then Plat 4-Gold 5 in my promo games out of Gold 5. They did skip me over Gold 4 and into 3. So division skipping does exist if you're decently high above your current tier and it's possible that Nethrom has just been a teensy bit short of qualifying for a skip each time. If it has looked like you're well above your current division, that's just the MMR/tier system being a little misleading.

Zealsz2 votes

Following up on this thought. I did my placement matches about half a year ago and did a bit of ranked and I was in Gold 4. Since then I've stopped playing ranked until recently, as such I've decayed to Silver 5. However, I'm still going against Gold 4 opponents.

I assume the logic of ranked decay is that as you stop playing your skill decreases, and your ranking should show that. I agree, that makes complete sense; my skill did decay quite a bit in that time and I totally lost track of where the meta was and all that.

It seems though that even though my rank has decreased, my MMR has stayed the same. This seems to be not the way it should be. If I'm Silver 5, I should be playing with people around Silver 5, namely Silver 4 through Gold 5. But I've mainly seen Gold 4 and 3. Sure this could be a problem with the time when I'm queuing and there being no Silver 5's available, but somehow I don't think that's the case.

Yasa2 votes

I think elo should be more limited. Gold 1's should be going against plats to prove by winning that they are platinum material, but everyone else should be going against people their same rank. We just need that cap on elo and I think we're good.

Nethrom2 votes

Yeah, I have NO problem at all consistently facing, like, 1 tier higher to advance or something. But 4-6 tiers higher is ridiculous and should not be happening.

Imperial Red2 votes

Should see it as a good thing that your MMR is at that level. If nothing else, it gives you chances to learn what you're doing wrong and learn from the opponent you're facing. Can't learn how to improve if you're fighting against people you're above. From what I've heard, once you get above gold, most strategies and the way people play have to change, so it's an opening for you to see what you'll be up against. Perseverance is the greatest gift.

Nethrom2 votes

I definitely am using each game as an opportunity to learn, but at the same time, the goal is to climb tiers and if it's harder for me to climb through Gold than it is for most Gold players just because I have higher MMR...that is a flaw in the system.

wolfax1 votes

If you're MMR matches that of plat players why shouldn't you be put with them?

Nethrom2 votes

Right. The ultimate question is that if I am playing against plats who are the same skill level as me, why do they have the benefit of plat border, plat rewards and everything, but I still have to fight for it? That's the ultimate flaw...

Communismo2 votes

To the OP

The point you are missing from the red post is that while you may be matched against people in higher divisions / tiers from you; it is solely because your skill level is higher than average for your tier.

The purpose of MMR based matching systems like this is to eventually get a player to a level where he is winning around 50% of his games. (because at that point he will not be advancing or declining very much if he stay at the same skill level)

Keep in mind that most people will not be climbing the ladder, but staying in their current position or declining. (this is obvious when you look at the player distribution for the leagues, and how the number of people in each successive league goes down immensely)

So keeping these points in mind, when you are in gold 4 and are being matched against gold 1 or platinum 5 or whatever, it isnt because your mmr is at the average of those tiers. It is because the people you are playing against likely have a below average mmr for their tier. (and likely that your mmr is above average for your tier)

The system is not broken this is how it is supposed to work. In my experience with the exact same kind of system, (getting to the master league in starcraft 2) the best thing you can do it just not think about your league or mmr so much and just focus on improving your game knowledge and mechanics, and the ranking will take care of itself.

Kereton Arindale1 votes

Mine is even worse. I'm in Silver 1 and I constantly face high golds and low-mid plats (a couple of plat 1s, actually).

I just want to get the rewards for being in Gold, but I shouldn't have to face high Golds and Plats to prove I am gold quality.

WookieeCookie, I know the likelihood is slim to none, but can players in my situation hope to get a bone thrown our way as the end of the season nears? Thanks!

blissless1 votes

I've had the same experience as the OP. I'm consistently the lowest-tiered player on either team no matter what the outcome of a game. Sure you can say it's your MMR that matters but then why have tiers at all to begin with? I'm playing with plats, playing against plats... you know, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck.

Marenjii1 votes

As Wookie said those players of a substantially higher rank than you, that you are being matched up against are not playing at the level for which they are ranked. That is why you are not skipping divisions. Why have you skip a division because you played someone higher ranked, but with similar MMR?

Grey Wolf1 votes

Don't worry, the next season will be here soon. And, based on this past season, you'll probably go 5-5 in your promos and be put in Silver.

Yes, Ranked is broken. Unfortunately, normals is worse.

CoolSpot21 votes

It seems to me that you under impression that there are enough people of same rank playing at any time .

Then you must realize that the important part is to get Qs that don't look for match for 20 minutes which I have seen in games that tried to do what you want

laehorian1 votes

clearly broken. as i climb my mmr up with succesfull win streak, i get match with person less skill than me. you defenetly need also more tier for splitting bronze players. wayyyyyy too many bronze players. some are fuckgin good and cant climb cuz 1 chance of 2 to get a retard. the average players should be in the middle of the ranking system, not at the bottom. you guys need to add more rank under bronze but to lower the number of people also like you are doing while you climb to challenger but in the other way. :) hope you get the thing and watch cs go ranking system. way better.

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