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Riot Please Reconsider/Take an Objective Look at the Rengar Rework

Mine All Mein··60 votes·3,761 views

(Note that I posted this under the help and support forums earlier due to the fact it wouldnt let me post here saying I was still less than level 7, obviously I am level 30, anyway I am the original poster just giving this to a broader audience)

Dear Riot,

Get comfy, please get a drink or some food and your favorite blanket cause this might get long. Hi I am Mine All Mein and I have been a Rengar main over multiple accounts for the good part of 3 years now and after all the nerfs after all the changes through the good times and the bad times I have played and stuck with this champion through thick and thin because I fell in love with his hunter like fantasy and savage ferocious nature. But in his current state I feel his identity has become lost to you. Now this may be a rant/debate, but I am trying to take this objectively and in a civil manner as possible. Nor am I trying to single out a single Rioter, because singling out a developer gets nothing done, for this update and all the nerfs he has received post rework, it unfortunately is a group effort in this nature and I realize this so I will just refer to Riot as a whole for this argument. Lets start with some definitions according to Riot Rengar is primarily classified as a Slayer/ Assassin and by definition a Slayer is "a fragile but agile damage-focused melee champions that look to swiftly take down their targets." Then by definition the Assassin sub category is "specialize in infiltrating enemy lines with their unrivaled mobility to quickly dispatch high-priority targets. Due to their mostly melee nature, Assassins must put them themselves into dangerous positions in order to execute their targets. Luckily, they often have defensive tricks up their sleeves that, if used cleverly, allow them to effectively avoid incoming damage."

Now these definitions are key to finding the holes in where his rework, current itemization, and current play style (according to patch 7.8) are very off from where he needs to be to be classified as an assassin. Now you might think that Rengar is in a healthy state and this might sound bizarre but honestly I cant disagree with you, as far as a champion goes he is pretty balanced not to strong and not to weak, HOWEVER since we are talking about an assassin by nature they need to be strong to be a fear factor for the enemy team. Lets start this debate out with EXHIBIT A) Rengar 's MOST POPULAR BUILD :

  • item 1412 item 3071 item 3047 item 3742 item 3065 item 3026 Now I am no expert at the game by any means, but I can see the value of this build in Pro Scene where there is more coordination and jungler's need to be tankier to absorb precision damage but this is also in regular Ranked and Normal Queue play where there is inconsistent players, disorganized play, no voice comms for the whole team. Just you and maybe a buddy if this is Ranked and maybe a group of friends if this is Normals who, lets be honest, are just playing the game to have fun and not taking it to that LCS/LCK or whatever region of pro play level of strategy.

Well if Rengar is classified as an Assassin why is he building Bruiser like items in Normal and Ranked play? Shouldn't he be building items are high AD items like item 3074 item 3142 item 3031 item 3812 item 3147 item 3814 or item 3035 or similar items in games more consistently?

Well my friend, normally you would be right but this Rework changed some things about him that made Rengar say NO in a stern voice to the drugs known as AD Assassin Items and HELLZ YEA LETS BLAZE to Bruiser items.

Let's go back in time to before the Rework. Ah the good ol' days of popping squishies before they can react for their folly of picking squishies into a Rengar. That TRIPLE Q was really nice, it felt so fluid so satisfying but its gone so no use crying over spilt kitten milk and on to EXHIBIT B) FEROCITY STORING : This...THIS MAGNIFICENT BASTARD was what made Rengar so versatile, you had a immobile squishy out of position triple Q combo them, you had a annoying hyper mobile carry your team needed locked down hit em with the embowered bola and let the team follow up, you wanted to team fight but also have a little fun? say no more item 3089 Rengar wizard cat to the rescue with his handy dandy triple battle Meow. Paired this with the fact that ult gave you ferocity generation after use oh baby Rengar is the champ that can have an answer to any solution mindful though that as long as he was able to start the snowball he could do work for his team and pick up their slack.

Now lets look at current Rengar. Can he do these things still and be just as versatile? Well the short answer yes, the truthful long answer is NO. Now that ferocity storing is a thing of the past mobile carries into Rengar can shove that huge F U finger in his face. Want to gank that squishy with a blink? Oh sorry they blinked the second you landed from ult because you only can queue 1 ability mid air Oh but they were slowed but now they are safely in the middle of their team. Oh that squishy with mobility is right next to a tank and half hp you can kill them right? Sorry tank knocked you up the second you landed and both got away but don't worry that CC removal sure works wonders when you were only able to get one ability off before you got CC'd. Oh it didn't? Because you got instantly CC'd and only got 2 stacks because of the jump and what a Q, weird right? Alright I think you get the point how the loss of ferocity stacking actually hurt Rengar versatility with ganking.

Now on to this next point EXHIBIT C) PASSIVE : BONETOOTH NECKLACE: Rengar gains a trophy whenever a champion he damaged in the previous second dies. Rengar can only gain one trophy per enemy champion, up to 5, with an additional trophy made available through the event The Hunt is On!. Bonetooth Necklace 1 TROPHY: Rengar gains 1 (+ 1% bonus AD) bonus attack damage. Bonetooth Necklace 2 2 TROPHIES: Rengar gains 3 (+ 3% bonus AD) bonus attack damage. Bonetooth Necklace 3 3 TROPHIES: Rengar gains 7 (+ 7% bonus AD) bonus attack damage. Bonetooth Necklace 4 4 TROPHIES: Rengar gains 13 (+ 13% bonus AD) bonus attack damage. Bonetooth Necklace 5 5 TROPHIES: Rengar gains 20 (+ 20% bonus AD) bonus attack damage. Head of Khazix : Rengar gains 30 (+ 30% bonus AD) bonus attack damage.

Now lets examine the failures of this passive shall we. Firstly lets talk about the worst part of this, "gains a trophy whenever a champion he damaged in the previous SECOND dies" now the reason this is bad is because the tools given to him from this rework they made Rengar want to extend fights rather than just hyper burst someone 1 second for this if played right by the enemy can easily be played around. Oh rRengar is coming to gank me and I'm low die run from him for 1 second when he lands and die to his team mate or tower or whatever. Now guess what if you are one of his last stacks to complete bone tooth necklace you can safely assume he will be back when his ulti cooldown and if the jungler is smart that is very simple and preditable counter ganks. Since Rengar can only see the nearest enemy champion he can easily be baited for those final stacks over and over and OVER again. Then you have an assassin with a similar assist/kill timer who is just as if not more bursty and does it in an AoE format, and I'm talking about none other than Katarina who has a whopping 3 SECOND assist window to benefit from her passive 3 FREAKING SECONDS. So what makes her so special that she deserves a 3 second window and Rengar gets a measly 1 second window hmm?

Then we move on to the next part of his passive the Trophy system. Oh boy Riot this screams to me easily not meant for an assassin. Firstly, off 1 kill what do I literally gain? 1 (+1% bonus AD) that is so laughable its disheartening, reason being giving up first blood to a him is no where near as punishing on giving it up to any of the following champs Katarina Khazix Ahri Fizz Zed Talon LeeSin Graves the list is much bigger however I don't think I need much more to show how weak it is. But for arguments sake lets say Rengar got 3 no lets go with 4 unique trophies now his damage is comparable to your average bruiser/ juggernaut Renekton Garen Darius but depending on how long it took you to get those stacks the time to effort ratio becomes more and more inconsistent. Then there is that all to important 5th stack that one champ is all you see so you tunnel vision for them. Now let me throw out that air of caution for an ASSASSIN that tunnel visioning is BAD DESIGN especially when that last stack is most likely not their squishy carry its a tank or another bruiser. Now if you recall a Slayer is suppose to "quickly kill priority targets" so why is it that I am forced every game to do try and do the opposite of that. Last I checked an enemies damage dealers 99% of the time take priority to kill when you are playing an assassin so why am I punished so hard for ignoring that rule? NO OTHER assassin in this game but Rengar is forced to kill every enemy on the opposing team to snowball, nope they just keep killing squishies over and over again and let their ADC clean up tankier targets. Oh that assassin mid solo killed their lane opponent 3 times guess I'm not roaming to that lane that guy will insta gib me if I do. Oh Rengar top did the same thing whelp time to rotate on him, he only gained 1 plus (1% bonus AD), and kill him then take his tower.

The next problem I see with a passive like this and I have noticed you did this is you toned down his base stats and scaling in order to compensate for this new passive which is not good either. This is because unlike other assassins Rengar is fighting on 5 fronts to snowball : his base stats, his scaling, his lane opponent (or jungle counterpart), his trophy system, and itemization/gold income when those other assassin only have to deal with 2 of these because the others are in good standing and that is itemization/gold and their lane opponent (jungle counterpart). Now I think I beat this passive to death but I am sure I have missed some nuances with it so if there is anything I have point it out please this is more of a debate then a 1 sided fight after all.

On to EXHIBIT D) (Q) SAVAGERY :

Now I like this ability honestly, its wave clear, its poke behind minions (sort of), its kinda bursty, and the scaling on it is pretty nice. However, this would't be a well built up case if I didn't go over it. Now I have already beat this horse but this Q SHINES on full passive stacks but is very lack luster without it at least for an assassin. Now, lets take that mystical time machine back to pre rework Rengar. Can you picture it, that clean Q animation that was an empowered auto attack and TARGETED so you couldn't miss it? I can it was glorious. Now I am not saying its hard to land Q but what I am saying is that it having a possibility to miss paired with the fact the piercing animation is also apart of the damage for this, that can also miss, and that cant be re aimed mid cast in certain situations this can become clunky. The fact it's also a casting animation rather than just a quick empowered auto attack leaves room for error also. Yes it provides counter play but at the expense of the Rengar player and the champion's fantasy of being a hardened and trained hunter. Then there is the actual EMPOWERED Q from before lets come all the tools it gave Rengar : 1) harder hitting Q, 2) attack speed, 3) increased AD for the next few seconds (which made Q hit harder, which made bola hit harder, which made auto attacks hit harder). Now compare this to current EMPOWERED Q : 1)harder hitting Q, 2)movement speed, hmm much less interactive nuances with the rest of his kit then before. Now like I said its a decent change to this new Q but the old one fit so much better for both his fantasy and game play consistency.

EXHIBIT E) (W) Battle Roar :

Let me start off with this sentence "This is sooooooooooooo counter productive for an assassin." Here is why the whole grey health thing doesn't belong or is needed on an Assassin, reason being is because of the current itemization for him right now as seen above. Why build like a normal assassin when this literally screams value for a bruiser. Besides the new QSS ability linked to his empowered cast this just doesn't work with how an assassin needs to be played instead it says hit me as hard as you can so i can make full use of this ability instead of let me quickly use my abilities to go for a kill because I am an assassin. The old flat heal and resistances gain was so much better for an assassin play style, made you harder to fight and gave a nice little bit of sustain. Now its like a "Please hit me but only burst hit me" sign on the champions back. Honestly not much to say other than these points so lets move on.

EXHIBIT F) (E) Bola Strike :

This right here is fine. Could it be better? YEP most assuredly. For example go back to the no cast time mid jump. But that horse, I am sure has been killed 10 times over. So for all intensive purposes this ability is fine for me and I wont argue this point. 1 FREE and EASY point for RIOT GAMES*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

EXHIBIT G) (R) Thrill of the Hunt :

Now I am sure you have heard it all before but I gotta bring up the elephant in the room. Why, just why did this become what it is from what it was. Lets go pull up the definition of a Slayer again. "Slayers are fragile but agile damage-focused mostly melee champions that look to swiftly take down their targets. They are often highly mobile and specializing in single-target burst damage. What they generally lack in resilience, they more than make up for in their potential to cover large distances and quickly kill priority targets. Epitomizing a high-risk, high-reward playstyle, slayers are natural opportunists, and prefer to strike when their targets are vulnerable, rather than engage them in a direct assault, favoring damage-oriented item builds to capitalize the most on their offensive capabilities." Now I am sure you are tired of reading this but I gotta quote you on where you stand for what he is classified as versus what you have him. Lets start with the biggest point the indicator. Oh god this is so bad for so many reasons: 1)It instantly goes over the targets head when Rengar presses R, not when he can leap to them but for just pressing the freaking button. 2) the range of this is huge for this 2000 / 3000 / 4000 that is a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEE notification for the enemy that I pressed R. 3)The double movement speed from ulting thanks to old bonetooth necklace being gone means that people can easily run from you into the safety of a turret or their team if you ult just the smallest bit to far from them. 4)I can only see the nearest enemy champion instead of every champion in my range like before so getting baited into a bad fight is super easy now because of this and indicator. 5)the indicator is dynamic so it acts as a compass to where is Rengar and not targeted so once team fights start breaking down and the enemy team wants to group your team is looking at being engaged on as a 5 v 4 because you are looking to ult. Couple this with the fact when you ult the enemy team, once that first target sees you pressed R they will go hug a tank and your position will be roughly known because of that darn indicator totally giving up the element of surprise.

Now lets look at this. All of these downsides for a Garenteed, haha I got jokes (ill walk myself out), Crit on that indicator target just don't feel fairly compensated I mean sure the ult is long but that's just that much more time for the enemy team to pinpoint your location and protect their carries. But its cool for champs like Talon Evelynn and hell even Nocturne to come out of no where and not advertise to only 1 target that I am trying to kill you. But yet you can go full on assassin builds on these champs and insta kill that priority target but no one hard complains about them doing it to the point they are forced to turn into a bruiser so why is Rengar the one forced to suffer as as assassin?

FINAL THOUGHTS IN REVIEW :

This is not a 1 sided I hate everything about new Rengar cause truthfully I still love the champion but I am sad to see the current state he is in and think it needs some fixing. It may sound like I am saying bring back the old knife cat, while that would be nice, even I know old knife cat did have some issues and I wont try and glaze over that. While I am a believer in the synergy of his old kit I just want to say that these flaws pointed out cause him to suffer and not play like a true assassin. Also I personally know that Rengar can still 1 shot squishies as an assassin tends to do, going assassin builds in the current patch (7.8) but that requires much earlier snowballing than every other assassin in the game which isn't as consistent to pull off like others can do by camping a single lane. Regardless I will keep playing the knife cat because I prefer play a 45% winrate champ while having fun than playing any other one while getting bored.

THANK YOU FOR READING.

V/R Mine All Mein (http://pa1.narvii.com/5867/195a0e85f576b99ee56058e629d3e81d98cb7300_hq.gif)

80 Comments

Lowanti15 votes

Gonna call it and say that a bunch of salty Rengar haters will downvote and trashtalk your complaints. Post makes sense, I preferred to play as adc against old rengar than this one, because if he made mistakes we could kill old rengar, and he only oneshot if he was fed, dont feed = dont worry.

Mine All Mein2 votes

Thank you learning a matchup is half the battle in league of legends

Zero Skill Tank14 votes

You better pray that Riot doesn't take an objective look at Rengar, because that would mean Yoricking until Sion-level rework.

N3mO066 votes

I want just to say that if you have to go in the middle of 5 ppl to do your job: First I don't want to waste my w to gain stacks Second I want a secure font of damage. I can't rely on a .4 sec cast time to try to kill an enemy which is pilled and mobile Vayne Caitlyn Lucian or on a random crit.

The Dreamwalker4 votes

I like cats. Fix this poor kitty cat! (he like my favorite jg)

Mira Arya Enthe4 votes

WOW! A quality post with detail and length about a sensible complaint. So far even seems fairly unbias. I am going to have to read this when I get home.

Silverjust3 votes

I think the reworked version is better than the old one on paper But he gets too much damage and can build tanky and still do his job

subhuman team XD3 votes

If they could bring the concept of old Q and add it instead with maybe some new mechanics or maybe a tuned out version of old Q (maybe no longer grants attack speed bonus from emp effect but instead make your emp Q deal dmg based on enemy's missing health while also having a low base dmg to avoid instant oneshots).

idk they should Grant old Q some sort of mechanic while maintaining the concept which is an auto amplifier , take talon for exmple his Q is an auto amplifier and a gap closer at the same time which works perfectly with his kit (get in , do your dmg get out wih ult or E if ur close to terrain).

-personally if i were to make rengar VERY unique in the game id update his passive from not only jumping on targets when in bush but also every certain amount of time he can ignore terrain and bypass it by climbing it making him very mobile and agile to chase his target but to avoid no counterplay issues if he uses the terrain then his brush jump mechanic will be disabled for a certain amount of time so you'll have to think before going in and calculate your most effective route in order to catch your target.

-as for Q id leave the concept as it is (stabbing ppl is very satisfying) but make it not able to crit but instead whenever rengar use Q on a certain target then that target will be debuffed for a certain duration which will make his Emp Q deal extra dmg for the duration of the debuff , if the debuff expires before he manages to emp Q then he will only deal the normal base dmg of the emp Q this will be just for balancing issues and make his Q stand out as a solo target ability which goes side by side with his hunting theme.

-his W could be better than just healing dmg taken or breaking out of cc but since he already has an escaping/chasing passive then cleansing your way out of cc is unhealthy with this kit therefore i think his W should be more or less a defensive ability only and not afree getaway card.

-his E remains the same.

-as for his ult , i thought about this for a very long time but why not make his ult unlock his passive for the duration of the ult , that means he can jump over terrain as much as he like but his ult will remain a camouflage ability and also a solo target ability that means you'll need to position yourself carefully and you'll have to know where your target is before taking action , and as always when he leaps hes only allowed to use one ability mid air in order to avoid instant burst but also after breaking out of camouflage he gains an instant empowered stack right after his first ability chosen that means if u press Q after leap and your Q lands on your target you'll get an instant empowered ability to choose from wether its Q to takedown your target or W if ur scared that you'll get bursted or E to root your target right after.

-and for the ferocity mechanic , i personally think that old ferocity mechanic was probably better since you would always be prepared before going in but the only difference is if u use ultimate you lose all your current stacks instantly just to avoid triple Q situations or double roots etc.

this is just my idea of how rengar should be since this new passive will allow him to be truly mobile because he can jump from everywhere and not just bushes i mean hes a frickin lion , lions can climb trees rocks mountains everything why cant rengar do that ?

And for his bonetoothnecklace i also believe that old bonetooth was generally better because it offered him more bonuses to hunt his prey instead of raw bonus ad with a litte bit of tuning (this is just my perfect version of rengar , i honestly think if they gave him the jumping mechanic from talon's E into his passive while also having the animation of a climbing cat [take it as if it was new warwick running animation but instead rengar used that animation to climb terrain] it wouldve been way cooler and matched his lore and theme as a hunter) but thats just me :/

crippler381 votes

Please go back through this and push enter every few sentences to make this less stressful to read please.

subhuman team XD1 votes

done , sorry i wrote this on ipad before i went to sleep cause as soon as i saw this post couldnt let it go because i love rengar as a champion , but the current rengar isnt the real rengar i know

Mine All Mein1 votes

Thank you! If you like it share it around the more brains that pick this the better.

Mine All Mein2 votes

I can sorry when I was writing this whole thing it was a straight type session as I wanted to get out as much of my thoughts as possible i know I missed things which are being fleshed out in the comments little by little but I thank you for reading.

crippler381 votes

Sir I didn't comment on you directly because yours wasn't a literal block of text.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

Well written.

Black T Poison3 votes

I agree with pretty much everything that says here, hopefully a rioter will see this a take into consideration

Blakiepug3 votes

I think it's sad that Rengar went from a semi-popular pick who was quite a bit of fun to play without being too oppressive to a niche pick since his rework. I really just don't like his rework. His new Q feels more lame than it looks and the new bonetooth passive's rewards just simply aren't as cool. They took a champion with a lot of cool snowball progression that took skill to utilize and turned it into straight AD. I also don't like the way his skill points decay, it just makes players mindlessly spam his Q to keep it stacked which I wouldn't exactly call skill expression.

Mine All Mein2 votes

Sad but true, his fantasy as a hardened hunter who knows what to do to kill his prey was kinda misplaced with current version. However their are saving graces to him right now for example I might not agree with bruiser build being his most popular I am however glad the option is there as fall back when behind. Hopefully something is done as riot as seen in the past dislikes assassins going tank/bruiser builds and changes things number wise/kit wise to be more appealing to go that assassin build while still leaving the tank/bruiser build as an option.

macromite3 votes

shold probably have reworked into a diver. stealth instant kills are not fun for the person palying against him, and if he can't do that then as an assassin he has failed.

Mine All Mein3 votes

Theme wise and lore wise, even with the new vastayah lore he overflows with the concept of a highly trained hunter/assassin and as such he would be efficient at killing his target so why would he want to extend fights? That fantasy of an efficient hunter is lost with his current iteration. I'm not saying he isn't still able to do assassin things but his current kit can make it harder to do them as stated in the post. And as to the fun factor of the enemy of the assassin class it kinda becomes irrelevant honestly. TBH when you pick an assassin you do it to take out high priority targets before they can react and like you said if you can't do that you lose out on that fantasy.

macromite2 votes

He can function as a hunter while being a diver.

hell man in more of the lore than not he expects to take a bit of a beating in his hunting bouts. he literally lost an eye on one of his bigger (attempted) catches, so why is it unreasonable for him to also realistically need to take a few hits in gameplay.

And again, in gameplay every single time rengar has had one shotting he has been beyond overpowered. He will NEVER be able to function as an assassin without either A, breaking league and being nerfed to obscurity or B, not being rengar anymore (removing stealth, nerfing or removing bola snare, nerfing or replacing bush jump).

Honestly I think more players that play rengar would rather keep the interesting mechanics no? because all of those mechanics would work just fine on a character that isn't meant to one shot people, it would make sense to try and make rengar more like one of those characters, rather than destroy him to keep one thing that he does not need.

IF you want a comparison, think about Azir and Darius Azir was destroyed to make sure he could keep access to his shurima shuffle Darius lost his perfect grab, and in turn got to keep essentially everything else he has without getting all too many heavy nerfs.

the weeaboo3 votes

I am fine with the rest of his kit but the Q feels ducking atrcious to use and clunky as fuck. If they just reverted the Q I'd probably start playing him again

TimX24968B2 votes

I don't even know why he was nerfed. He wasn't even strong.

xPride StaIker5 votes

its 100% clear to everyone who is gold+ or plat+ that rengar is not even strong atm but good luck at getting that idea into the heads of almost 50% of the league community aka bronze / silver

subhuman team XD2 votes

He was strong ever since the lethality changes and his new bonetooth , before it worked as % total ad now its just bonus ad but also the % at each stack were very high which made him VERY VERY strong match that With his Q huge ad scalings and you have a 0 counterplay kitty that either right clicks on u or presses Q once if not twice , thats why he got gutted and thats also why hes really really bad to play as and against (bruiser tank that goes in still kills the adc and survives) thats why he really needs an actualy rework that would fit his theme correctly

TimX24968B2 votes

the thing is, his whole design and archetype is a bit non-counterplay type. He's a hunter. He hunts. not much counterplay other than "appear and kill"

Mine All Mein2 votes

Thank you I do agree with this statement wholeheartedly however I would add he was a hunter of a single target at a time now he gets AoE shred which is kinda weird seeing his fantasy.

Mine All Mein2 votes

TBH Pre rework rengar did take more intricate knowledge of bush mechanics and a stack system to be as efficient as possible. However pre rework a snowballed rengar I know for sure was problematic mainly cause stealth mechanics are hard to balance. New rengar ate 3 nerfs in a row because higher elo abuse cases. Which I don't believe is the right way to balance an assassin. But it happened and we have to live with it. Rengar is suppose to be that solo carry very selfish hunter type champion. But pair his 3 nerfs with jungle nerfs and I do believe he was hit harder than most assassins.

SwiftKitten882 votes

i didn't read it yet.... but here's your upvote... if you spent that long to write it... you did your research...

Rengar Rampage2 votes

I wish Riot would at least show that they're listening. This way I could know someone at Riot is at least aware of the fact that there are players who are no longer enjoying Rengar , and thus League of Legends as a whole.

I feel that Rengar was very feast or famine - but that was okay. This only seemed to become an issue when enough people complained about how "Rengar is too easy! He's killing me by pressing buttons!"

The problem with Rengar was that he could preemptively stack his ferocity. This led to combo's which allowed a lot of damage to come in a short amount of time. So how do you fix that? By changing the ferocity system, which of course they did.

But did the other part of his passive need to change? He obtained unique tools as he became stronger. Hell, keep the "kill unique champions for next rank" portion, and bring back his unique tools. Current rewards are boring and uninteresting.

Did Q need to change? To me, Rengar 's Q was the must fun part of his kit. If you're that concerned with players pressing Q before jumping onto his prey, create some restriction such as "can only be used if in combat", such as his new ferocity system.

I'm indifferent on the W change.

I'm indifferent on E, as it wasn't changed during the rework.

As for his new ult, though I don't like it as much as I like his old one, I don't find it so much different that I no longer enjoy playing Rengar .

There's my opinion on it all... Q change made Rengar (and League of Legends) not fun to play.

Make Rengar an assassin again.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for this post OP.

Rengooo2 votes

Well written post, next step: Storm Riot HQ and hold balance team to ransom over Rengar Revert.

I joke.. But man I miss Rengar..

Cyrusklep2 votes

As an adc main I did hate old Rengar buttblasting me but new Rengar doesn't feel that great. I also enjoyed Rengar in the jungle because he was one of the few I could play competently (or at least not feed too terribly). Frankly just bump this post.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

While its understandable Rengar mains are upset, but he needed the rework. He just didn't get a good one. Before it was completely unfun and oppressive to be 100-0 instabursted from stealth. Now he's just shit after being made a bruiser and got nerfed repeatedly for still 100-0ing squishies and being tanky.

Aptest2 votes

You made a very long post, but I feel the gist of it is very short: You want the stealth instagib with your tripple Q. You want the unreasonably lethal unavoidable opener: These are the parts of the kit that made everything click and made the character live up to it's power fantasy. The bulk of your post is basically a very long retelling of how satisfying these parts of the kit were, and how awful and clunky it feels to not have them on this character.

I think you understand how frustrating it was to play against repeated reliable insta-gibbing, and also how frustrating it is to play hug-your-support-24-7. But you rationalize it: every pick causes some kind of neccessary changes in the play style of the other team and it's reasonable to expect adaptation, and all in all rengar is supposed to kill shit.

I feel you do owe the other side of the discussion some concessions, though. While it is reasonable to expect adaptation of play style, if that adaptation is in a generally less fun direction than i don't think it's reasonable to say it's ok if it happens all the time. For me at least, I hated having to lulu it up and hug the ADC 24/7 because some guy on the other team is having fun with Rengar.

In addition to this, most of the characters people WANT to play are squishies. People are innately drawn to the eves, the yasuos, the rivens. You aim to punish the other players away from their favorite picks, simply by the virtue of you liking mr. knife cat. i don't understand how this is reasonable.

I agree with you that current rengar is not in an optimal place. what should play as a surgical lion jumping his pray from ambush plays now like a maddned boar on a rampage. I feel this challange requires a complete redesign, because the triple-q-from-stealth is both rengar's (desired) thing that makes him an assassin, and also the thing he can't really have.

Mine All Mein1 votes

Personally I thank you for this counter argument so so much it is always welcome here. Unfortunately I being a Rengar main obviously have my bias on the subject. However my aim for this post is to become as unbiased as possible. Am I asking for a return to the old rengar? No and let this be clear old rengar was problematic. However what my true aim is to have him change for the better in a way where his kit flows and matches his themeatic. I see your points about my stance on the old kit. I just want you to know I in no way shape or form was using it in the intention as a crying plea to return to that it was only used as a base point because obviously for playing from rengar's perspective the kit prior to the bola cast time change mid air was the kit that had the best flow, not the best counterplay, but the best FLUIDITY. And that is what I honestly care about. So my stance is not damage and the whole insta gib, but THEME, FUN GAMEPLAY, and KIT FLOW. And damage is obviously a factor when choosing an assassin but not my stance for this arguement. In memory the rework that met all conditions THEME, FUN GAMEPLAY, and KIT FLOW was Warwicks rework and I thoroughly enjoy it as a side pick to Rengar even if warwicks builds are kinda cookie cutter. Hopefully this replied to all your points made and if I missed things, as I am human, please I am more than happy to talk to you.

Edit: also going over why an assassin is going a bruiser build almost every game. When in recent memory riot is shown to stat adjust assassins seen to do this in order to have their assassin builds become more viable but still leaving the bruiser build as a fall back at the cost of damage trade off which I feel is lacking with him as his current form as stated above him having this go to bruiser build.

Aptest1 votes

change mid air was the kit that had the best flow

Flow is just a buzz word for getting your spell off when you want it without the character having to play animations or deal with internal timers. With Rengar, the "when you want them" was invariably "all spells immediately upon destealthing". I am not a rengar player but I feel that there is no other moment in Rengar's gameplay where efficient spell transition plays a major part.

I.E. "fluidity of gameplay" is another aspect of playing (OLD) rengar that is exclusively enabled and realized through the ability to stealth-instagib.

I apologize for being somewhat insensitive here: but having read your longer post above, it is clear to me that when you say "theme" this means "stealth instagib". and when you say "fun gameplay" it means "stealth instagib" and when you say "kit flow" you mean "stealth instagib". All the fun things you've mentioned, all the pluses to playing Rengar, they all either enable stealth instagib, or are directly resulting from the ability to stealth instagib.

The element that made rengar the least fun assassin to play against was his incredible "reach", combined with his short TTK. From the perspective of a support player, my personal gripe is that there are a lot of things in the game that i can do. I can threaten, initiate, chase, ward, etc. Against other assassins some measure of safety is received through warding and staying back, and this frees me to actually play as opposed to be leashed to the ADC and guard-dog. But rengar required tight point defense, which pinned me to the ADC.

So, actually there's a point here, do the right play VS the right character. But if the right play is consistently not fun maybe next time i don't queue as support? I'll just get some other role and badger the other guy to go lulu and stick on the ADC.

from my point of view, the obvious solution is to dump the ult and reach some kind of idea on how to realize the thematic goals without the stealth instagib?

Mine All Mein1 votes

Thank you for your reply and I respect your opinion on the subject I will be sure to get back to you and give this awesome counter argument a equally awesome reply. As I am on my phone ATM I would like to reply to this on a computer where I can get my thoughts together better. Hopefully you understand.

V/R Mine All Mein

Aptest1 votes

Anxiously waiting your reply.

That being said I've talked on the subject of Rengar quite a lot. It is clear to me that most Rengar mains want Rengar to have an assassin feel and assassin gameplay patterns.

Whereas I feel Rengar is being bruiserised with every change riot gives him, and moves further away from the identity his fans expect.

Rengar used to be outright the single most common jungler. For his fans, he came through with a lot of fun. So this discussion of whether Rengar can be fun again, without making life pain for everybody else, is definitely worthwhile.

Kurogami1 votes

I'm aware that the conversation was between you two, but I hope you don't mind my own input on the matter, especially seeing as you're one of the few people that actually give legitimate criticism, as opposed to crying "waah waah he one-shot me"... I digress. I picked up the knife-cat midway through s5-6 ish, can't quite remember, and while the "flow" of the champion is somewhat difficult to explain to someone who (I'm assuming here, feel free to correct me) has played little to no Rengar. Also keep in mind that I played him TOP lane, so I can't speak for the jungle as well as I could top. I'm also writing this during a boring-af class, so I'll likely do a terrible job of explaining it. If more clarification is needed, feel free to ask and I'll update it when I'm back on my CPU.

First off, I'll admit it: Him unleashing 3 skills mid-leap was stupid. This has been argued so many times, and to some extent, I do agree. But that wasn't the only "flow" to his kit ruined with the rework. Previously, one of the most-used combos (at least top-lane), was: Jump> AA reset with Q, cast tiamat mid-Q animation. This created a kind of "double-q animation", since the tiamat active used the Q animation. Combo #2 was- Bola>Leap> AA Q reset> Tiamat. Same concept, but with another skill thrown in. The old W could also be cast mid-q. His kit was somewhat simple, but had more complexity to it than you'd think from first glance. That's more or less the issue we all have with the current rengo. ALL of those animation cancels/combos have been, more or less, taken out entirely.

Aptest2 votes

Rengar had a fair amount of hidden complexity to his kit. Like you said a bunch of hidden combos and the fact that you had to plan for them in advance is pretty nice.

The OP is talking about these at length actually. And in addition on the lack of complexity to the new kit and some of the boring parts of the kit like having to assassinate the other team's poppy.

However what is the value of all of those to the player? Once you go into the OP's post and dig for the examples he gives to when these game-play pieces feel really nice you find example after example of pressing R and mini-comboing some poor sod from 100 to 0 in a milisecond.

So is the OP talking about rengar's lost complexity in general? or for the specific loss of the triple Q from stealth? What is the important point and what does he actually want?

To me it seems that for the OP, the whole kit clicks into place in the 100-0ing of the enemy squishie. And that's the relatively short core of what he wants...

...i mean its fun to have all them short combos and such. But the deleting of the ADC is the actual big high point of the character and everything else basically leads to it.

Kurogami1 votes

All I can really say to that is that other champions did the same thing- and some still can. Talon, Katarina, Fizz, K6 (just to name a few) and a good number of other assassins right now still 100-0 close to how fast pre-reword rengar did. Katarina in particular is a pain in the ass due to her near infinite blinks and stupid amounts of AoE damage. The Gunblade + Lich LB is stupid right now (and she has dumb mobility, too)... And the list goes on. Rengars strength was that he did it from total stealth- something that's now been more or less balanced out with the camo change. So if your only argument is that he instagibs the ADC if he's not being babysat... I'd have to say your argument is somewhat flimsy. I will admit, though, the fact that when breaking stealth, the fact that the damage dealt was pretty much unavoidable was BS. But that's all from a balance perspective. While I can't speak for the OP, what enraged me the most about this rework is that Riot neglected the most crucial aspect of any rework- preserving the champion's identity. He went from an AA Reliant assassin to a weird AD bruiser/caster hybrid. Simply put, it's just not rengar anymore. I would have given up more than half of old rengars damage if it meant keeping his fluidity and identity, rather than being given this unbalanceable, unrecognizable champion.

EDIT: Regarding the triple Q, as far as I know, it's not been possible for a fair amount of time now. Don't quote me on this, though. I fell in love with the champion and his playstyle, but I've not been playing him long at all.

Mine All Mein1 votes

Ok I am back home, damn it was a long work day 23 freaking hours, any way I digress. Hmm, let me try and use an out of game example of something I find was in a simillar spot to Rengar, not matching him on a point for point bases, but needed tuning. If anyone here has ever played SMITE and remembers release Bellona, she was broke AF no matter what you did she had an answer for every thing and had the kill pressure to back it up. A auto attack was becoming a problem blind his ass, needed to duel someone here take this pantheon aegis passive form, needed to burst someone hammer form for days baby, needed an escape/engage plant that flag on the heads of your enemies. She could do it ALL, but after some tuning she was in a fine place, if she wanted that hammer form burst build she was forced to sacrifice being tanky and become a glass cannon, if she wanted all those utilities she needed to sacrifice damage. But regardless her kit was still solid no matter which way you wanted to build her and everything felt right on her and had smooth transition between spells. Now SMITE is most definitely not League. But what I am saying is kit synergy is important on champion design. I am not arguing in favor of the old Rengar to return honestly the opposite, however what I want is a synergistic kit for him one that flows on all elements. I am not saying damage numbers nor have I mentioned me begging for another one shot Rengar. What I want with Rengar is for me hard to get out into words, yes i love and want his assassin fantasy, obviously I am a Rengar main so that bias exist, but above that I want the build versatility that was in previous iterations of previous rengar's which at the moment is lost with bruiser build. I want a change to the Q, NOT SAYING BRING BACK TRIPLE Q, however i did like the single target aspect of it. Cause lets be real the AoE Q is very forgiving in a team fight and allows you to nuke multiple squishies if they stand right next to each other in 1 spell cast and lessens the precision needed to play him.

As I want to answer your points lets start with the theme counter argument :

  • Bushes are what I like about Rengar over the one shot, the bush outplays are so fun for me personally. Just like Skarner spire if you see bushes you should be cautious and fearful. I like the mind games it brings of "oh shit this Rengar knows how to effectively use bushes im so scared of bushes now. Just like the just released maokai buff to sapling in bushes or with ap schao boxes in bushes every bush should be fearful to go near as that is now his territory of power. Open lanes where there is no bush near you, he should feel weak and way less powerful.

I guess my Fluidity of Gameplay counter argurment could be I want Rengar to have this fluidity when he is in his element as stated above, the bushes maybe i can see the speed at which abilities come out is effected by him jumping out of a bush. Maybe its slow and clunky by itself but use a bush and the speed and fluidity of the abilites start to synergize. This is just a potential that I have gone over it sounds good to me but maybe not so good to everyone else.

Aptest2 votes

IMHO the core design issue that makes all the bad aspects of rengar necessary is that he is all-in with jumping in through ulting.

In that I mean that his follow up mobility is very weak. His ability to execute additional jumps is very restricted given that opponents can and will make the fight outside of bushes and generally a 1.5 second MS boost isn't the best mobility tool out there.

Ok so khazix can make do with that, butKhazix gets multiple instances of MS boost on demand, and also gets a short instance of stealth and collision avoidance on top that helps him at least avoid skillshots while he's running.

In the absence of real outplay mechanics, Rengar relies on tanking up through battle meow and Dariusing his way through the situation. Which gives your the "wild boar on rampage" experience. Not sure what exactly you mean by kit flow, but im pretty sure you don't mean this.

Rengar's mechanic with the bushes makes him a very polarized champion. near bushes he has a lot of outplay potential with a good number of tricks to play but out in the open he's like a Darius that gets dropped on top of you: If you can peel off the initial, what's he got left?

If Rengar is weak outside of the jungle, this means you have to constantly think about how to make the other team fight you in the jungle. I am not sure this can be done reliably enough and if you are punished because you have to fight off a counter-push straight down mid lane because you are trying to control dragon, it is possible that the reliability of the champion is taking too big of a hit here.

In addition there is the same problem that khazix is generating through isolation damage. if you're guaranteed superiority over the other jungler than that makes Rengar oppressive same way khazix is/was ??? (not sure, havn't kept up with events).

IMHO the solution to both issues is to find some way to give rengar more mobility, and specifically more reliable mobility. If this happens there is no more need for the rengar insta-gib or the tanking solution, and also regar can be less polarized between jungle and no jungle and become a more reliable champion.

here is my proposition for a solution:

R: thrill of the hunt.

  • thrill of the hunt begins it's cooldown when it is cast.

Active: Target a large area of the map. for 15 seconds, The area is filled with bushes of random size and direction. The bushes are not connected, including to any existing bushes. Rengar's bushes grant vision inside and around them for the duration. Large and epic monsters are not hidden by these bushes.

Active: While thrill of the hunt is on cool-down, rengar may activate the ability to dash (600 range) into a nearby bush (12 second CD).

Notice that this replaces the stealth with something that can be similarly used as stealth, through exploiting bush mechanics. The basic idea is to allow rengar to exploit his passive into an engagement in the middle of an open lane, and to extend rengar's mobility to give him outplay and dodging potential.

Mine All Mein1 votes

I do find that an interesting prospect, as at least for me when I play Rengar i tend to not rely on my ult as much as i rely on my bush mechanics so that ult sounds very fun and interesting to me. I also dont like the whole wild boar mechanic either never sat right with me in the first place. If I wanted to jump into that playstyle I would just be playing Darius or Garen . Also I do like how you said how the bushes are Vision inside and around them, question though was that for everyone, Rengar , or his team cause I was curious. I also like how you mentioned MS/chase potential, because that to me is what I personally like about an assassin thematic outplaying your opponent through skill and the speed needed to do so and scatter the enemy. Which is why I find Khazix fairly fun also. After all he is my second main. Damage sure an assassin needs to do their job but that feeling I get knowing I used every aspect of this champions kit and outplayed the mess of my opponent is what I love about the role. Zed feels satisfying this way, riven same thing even though she is fighter primary, rather than just brute force my way though like a Camille or Darius there is more to the list but I hopefully think this expresses my stance.

Aptest1 votes

Vision inside and around them, question though was that for everyone, (), or his team

IMHO vision should be for both rengar and his team but not for opposing team. However a situation where these bushes do not participate in the vision game at all (they dont count as obstructions) is also possible.

Rengar having vision in the area is a must because otherwise he'll have to face-check into his own ult which sucks.

His team should share the vision because otherwise there is a huge difference between "competitive rengar" (where the rengar feeds his team info through voice comm) and "soloQ rengar"

I really like the concept of just blocking out the vision for the enemy team and putting them in "panic mode" through just killing their sight lines. I am not certain how close this is to Rengar's thematic but the denial of vision does allow him to play out the "jungle predator jumping out of the bush" theme, IMHO.

Also breaking vision through abusing brush mechanics very much sound like something that will be good on rengar.

The core of the idea is to allow rengar to outplay opponents by sneaking into a brush and breaking the sight line, and then abusing his passive to jump back onto his target.

Once you press your ult button, you have a second dash available for you that accomplishes that, and the ult makes sure that there is a brush nearby that enables you to use the second dash.

So the kill combo is actually, to get into a brush nearby to your target and passive jump to them and do your first rotation, and then jump out into a close bush and wait for your cool downs and/or dislodge any exhaust / pacify etc that you got tagged with. once you have your spells back up there is a bush near your target and you jump on the target again.

Nymzo2 votes

Here's my opinion as someone who played against Rengar A LOT since the end of season 3:

The only problem that I have with Rengar are his bonetooth necklace and his ult.

The first version of Rengar was really strong because of his ult, however, his bonetooth was not free unlike the last 2 version. It was an item to buy for 800 gold that was pretty much another stack item.

But then, the second rework came around and then they gave sooooo much free shit on his bonetooth. Like, I know this is part of his theme but come on, with the jump in the bushs and with the ferocity mechanic, it's too much for a passif (I know ferocity doesn't count as his passif but it's at best 2 passif and we all know how much we hate double passif champions Yasuo).

Now with the assasin rework, it got changed and I really hate this new Rengar too. They made him harder to kill in exchange to delay our dead by like 1 extra second. So I'm on your side for that part.

His ult, on the other hand, is where I'm disagree.

I know as a support main, I have less experience when it comes to Rengar. However, I believe his ult is the source that ruin Rengar, for both his fanbase and his opponents. Riot never had the bright idea to I don't know... change his ultimate. His ult only had some minior changes like the indicator and now the vision and... free crit?

This is like Ryze's w all over again, they change everything except the source of the problem.

See allow me to quote you:

But its cool for champs like Talon Evelynn and hell even Nocturne to come out of no where and not advertise to only 1 target that I am trying to kill you. But yet you can go full on assassin builds on these champs and insta kill that priority target but no one hard complains about them doing it to the point they are forced to turn into a bruiser so why is Rengar the one forced to suffer as as assassin?

Because there's a massif difference between all of them and Rengar.

Nocturne is a diver that does delay dmg, he doesn't burst at all so he is forced to be a bruiser, his ult doesn't hurt that much.

Talon only has 3 damaging abilities and he needs to use one as a gapcloser if he wants to kill someone quickly before they escape.

I am not a fan of Evelynn's passif either, however she is very frail and very predictable once she reveals herself.

The problem with Rengar is that he's a ball of stats that can gap close to his enemies super easily. He's basically a strange mix of a hypercarry and an assasin.

I know what I'll say will seem farfetched but bear with me for a second: imagine that Nasus would receive a rework when he would lose his tankiness but in exchange, he would get a quick access to the enemy backline while also keeping his stacks mechanic.

That would be broken right? Well that's Rengar in a nutshell for ya.

Yes he doesn't have a stack mechanic, but his bonetooth necklace is the reason why he's a ball of stats. The assasin rework just made the ball harder to kill while also slighly nerfing the ball itself. Quick reminder that every champion that is a ball of stats are not as mobile as Rengar, hell they are mostly slow. But Rengar's ult make him very fast and very unpredictable because of the stealth.

Aptest1 votes

It is funny that the OP uses Evelynn as an example. Because each and every problem that exists with Rengar's design, they all originate in the design of Evelynn.

The original design, I mean.

Mine All Mein1 votes

Yea I realize she was the original offender of stealth but her inclusion was by chance and not on purpose just an example that popped into my head. Stealth is a hard mechanic to balance in a multiplayer game obviously and I am not saying I know how either. Obviously the nature of the beast is that assassins by design are not suppose to be easy to deal with with. Which is why I try to avoid the whole stealth conversation, as truthfully stealth is a hard thing to please everyone with either you please the people who want it while alienating the people who have to fight it or please the people who have to fight it and alienate the people who want it. It's an easier solution in an FPS and TPS but much harder to solve in a MOBA.

Edit: not saying I don't comment on the stealth aspect because I have but as a rengar main it is easier for me to see nothing wrong with stealth which is why it's hard to discuss stealth in this game honestly the whole subject reminds me of a meme I saw, and sorry if this offends anyone since it's a 9/11 joke. But the meme goes "Genders are like the twin towers, there use to be 2 of them, then it became a touchy subject." And where I'm going with this is stealth is a cool mechanic but it's to hard to please everyone so picking a side makes it a touchy subject to dissect.

Aptest1 votes

It is obvious to me that stealth is not the problem. While it has been a long road, stealth champions have all reached a state where their stealth is not the big issue that breaks their design.

And there are a lot of examples to this: Evelynn Twitch MonkeyKing Shaco

The champions that do show problems all have one thing in common: it's not the stealth itself, but how much they can accomplish immediately upon destealthing.

for instance with Vayne the common complaint was that the tumble->AA->condemn->AA outright deletes people. Or with Akali R->Q->E->gunblad->AA (not sure about the combo) straight up deletes people no stealth required (only when fed). Rengar same issue as akali - the problem is not stealth, but triple-Q from stealth.

In the context of this thread. I do have some ideas for Rengar and I do feel i understand where the design problem is. However, the triple Q from stealth can not return and i feel the great effort invested in preserving rengar's 'jump from stealth' is the first major roadblock to making him a different but interesting champion.

Mine All Mein1 votes

Hello thank you for commenting and it is highly appreciated, I will be sure to get a proper response back to you when I get to a computer I am on my phone ATM and I don't want auto correct and phone misclicking to mess up giving a very valid argument a reply.

Astoreth1 votes

I read most of it, I'm, proud of myself. Book for this week, checked.

Jokes aside, I would love one of the following for Thrill of the Hunt:

  • Keep the indicator and crit, but at certain distance you get vision of champions nearby. (i.e. They are all in mid river brush and you come to maybe twice jump range or a bit less and you can see the garen, thresh and sejuani hiding behind ashe)
  • Select a target to be hunted, who will get the eyes on top of their head and you will have true sight of them. You don't get vision of her team unless you can actually see them, but they will be vulnerable to your additional damage for being hunted.
  • Last one I'd like reduce stealth times, switch back from camo to invis, give us a bigger move burst (sort of like Talon) Current position indicator without the bonus damage on nearest target but vision of all enemies withing your ult range.

EDIT: Disclaimer, I suck so this ideas probably suck too are probably not what he needs on his R, but for me they seem like something that could make it feel more llike a hunter again.

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