I made this post a while ago asking Riot for their take on Nid's state at this point but got nothing from Riot. I feel like what I have to say is just not important enough for Riotnto even care. Oh if asked about Morde Riot would have been all over it.
RiotRiotRepertoir3 votesHi there Nidalee SO HOT,
Sorry you didn't get a response to your last post; I must have not seen it. Nidalee threads usually get my attention, but I guess I missed this one.
Nidalee's winrate does look pretty low at the moment, but I do believe it goes up pretty substantially with both skill level and mastery of the champion. While she's probably weak for the average player that hasn't invested a lot of games in her, she's still seems capable of being pretty powerful at the moment.
One thing you addressed in your original post that I do tend to agree with is that throwing Javelins seems a bit to unreliable overall, and if I ever had the opportunity to look at her again, I might seek to increase their reliability at the cost of range, or something like that. That said, we don't currently have any plans to work on her.
boss100003 votesI loved Nidalee way back before you made her into that stupid jungler, she was perfectly balanced before then, the issue you guys created was your own doing, she was fine in the mid lane and the such, because it took skill to land a javelin, that then meant you could engage, the problem you have put her in now is, that she has crap all in her kit to really do anything (except jungle) to a high degree.
The best thing Riot could do is honestly take her back to patch 5.1 before that stupid hunt monsters crap then balance her as a mid lane poke mage again, she can't do anything because javelins are so dam hard to land (vs a none dumb player), and there are champions that do far better than her at poke, more damage, more safety and more utility all in one (cough * azir* cough) yet she has one of the slowest skill shots in the game, that had its hitbox made smaller many times (I like the size now honestly myself, allows you to skilfully thread it through minions if your really good.).
The whole issue then arises, is where you land a javelin, through skill, luck or bad enemies, and want to go into cougar and go in, the issue is that you then either:
A) Go in and get destroyed and melted cause your so dam squishy. B) Go in and do some damage but cause you built tanky you don't do much (other champions do this far better) C) Go in kill them and get out (then everyone complains about her)
The problem is everyone always complains when they get hit by that 1 max ranged javelin, then a Nidalee jumps in and kills you, but this rarely happens or that Nidalee land a long range Javelin,in which case you should die (no different to someone landing a long range Stun then killing you), it is in the similar boat to blitz pull or thresh hook, as a player you could miss 1 million hooks but then land 1 really good one and then you get complaining for days. This is also made worse by any sort of ping which makes it so an easy as hell to dodge skill shot on LAN or low ping, turns into a strong low chance to dodge skill shot on high ping (50+) that seems to appear and inst hit you.
Its the the same if you had a champion that had the random chance of 1 in 1 million of insta killing an enemy with the next auto, even though it would never happen 999,999 times, that 1 time it would happen will just annoy the other person even if it only happens 1 in the entire game, they would complain how OP it is, even though it rarely happens.
I honestly think Nidalee's style is perfect fine, as the concept, of:
The problem is that people get annoyed by that 1 javelin landing then her going in, but if she spent all lanning phase throwing 1 million javelins and the enemy standing in minions (cough* playing smart *cough), they never complain at all, it cause her javelin is basically, land it and go in and maybe get a kill and get out or try to poke and get nothing done at all.
There are many champions that can do that far better than Nidalee, and bring a whole lot more to the table than she does, as stated before Azir can poke enemies out (W Q) and then when there low enough go in (E) and also bring team utility with his R.
Nidalee however doesn't really offer much, she is known for her "Poke" but honestly that was removed with her rework and again there are champions that do that better and easier than her (Ziggs), she then became the land a spear and commit, which honestly didn't work well cause if you landed a masisve long range javalin 99% of the time you were out of range to go in, and even if you could go in, most of the time they are with there team and you going in 1 vs 5 is not a good idea.
Nidalee honestly needs to be revert to a earlier patch (pre jungler Nidalee) then riot needs to focus on what makes Nidalee, Nidalee and stop with the all lane champion, take her back to the mid/top lane and focus on the aspect of her, that make her, her, weather that be long range hard to land but high damage poke, or maybe get a bit of poke damage and fully engage champion.
Honestly she was fine patch 5.1 but since she was made into the Jungler, Mid, Top, Support champion that could be played literally any lane, then she stopped being able for Riot to focus on her aspects and focus on balancing in her one specific area, and then going with the part of her that make her and then encouraging those aspects as her play style/pattern of play.
Nidalee was honestly fine (patch 5.1) and she had the 100 or 0 play style, where she either lands a javelin and can go in , and more often than not, maybe kill you, or she can spam 1 million javelins and have the enemy dodge, miss them or Rito bugs, and do nothing cause her entire play style depended on being good with javelins and the enemy not playing around them (such as using the minions etc, to avoid them), she honestly needs to be brought back to her mid lane routes and have her aspects properly focused on and enforced to then re-enforce her play style and how she works and re give her back an identity that make Nidalee, Nidalee.
Decrit3 votesI loved Nidalee way back before you made her into that stupid jungler, she was perfectly balanced before then, the issue you guys created was your own doing, she was fine in the mid lane and the such, because it took skill to land a javelin, that then meant you could engage, the problem you have put her in now is, that she has crap all in her kit to really do anything (except jungle) to a high degree.
sometimes i still cry in my bed thinking about these javelins...
boss100001 votessometimes i still cry in my bed thinking about these javelins...
You should see some of the javelins i can do on low ping, thread them perfectly through moving minions waves, the amount of times people thought i was hacking cause i could perfect thread javelins, but that was on <20 ping, i miss those days, where you were reward for being a god at skill shots.
Retillin1 votesAll you need to do, is give a cost to her cougar form. A simple 10-15 mana per ability use gives her enough restrictions that she can get power put somewhere else if you feel the need to raise her "skill floor".
Nidalee SO NYAAA2 votesThey would have to raise her mana pool if they did that
Retillin1 votesWhy? It forces her to chose how she plays/builds. Now if she wants to spam abilities in cougar form, she has to either build mana or plan out her spells. It gives her counter-play. No longer can she spam high movement escape/engages endlessly. And I have no problem if they lowered the mana cost on her human form to make up for it. No more "free" spells.
Nidalee SO NYAAA1 votesThen they need to change Elise to do the same
Retillin1 votesAnd I am fine with that. Riot has said time and again how hard they struggled with form shifters. This could be a reason why.
Lord Boltrix1 votesHi there Nidalee SO HOT,
Sorry you didn't get a response to your last post; I must have not seen it. Nidalee threads usually get my attention, but I guess I missed this one.
Nidalee's winrate does look pretty low at the moment, but I do believe it goes up pretty substantially with both skill level and mastery of the champion. While she's probably weak for the average player that hasn't invested a lot of games in her, she's still seems capable of being pretty powerful at the moment.
One thing you addressed in your original post that I do tend to agree with is that throwing Javelins seems a bit to unreliable overall, and if I ever had the opportunity to look at her again, I might seek to increase their reliability at the cost of range, or something like that. That said, we don't currently have any plans to work on her.
...why not just reduce the damage and put it where it should matter: in the rest of her kit? Why not do what DFG and Fizz's ult does, and have the spear be the thing that sets up the combo and promotes damage? Perhaps a larger buff the farther it travels? I mean it can have damage, but the problem is it promotes a cowards game where someone just builds AP, tosses spears until they get one or two kills, and win by a 3v5 proxy.
At least Fizz has to go in to make his troll combo.
Which brings me to a way to deal with Fizz: make him vulnerable to being knocked up on his pole. Janna, Yasuo, Alistair? They can knock people up, and Fizz is literally just standing on his pole.
End of complaints, counter to Fizz is knockups.
#inb4Yasuorush
NudistMojo1 votesHi there Nidalee SO HOT,
Sorry you didn't get a response to your last post; I must have not seen it. Nidalee threads usually get my attention, but I guess I missed this one.
Nidalee's winrate does look pretty low at the moment, but I do believe it goes up pretty substantially with both skill level and mastery of the champion. While she's probably weak for the average player that hasn't invested a lot of games in her, she's still seems capable of being pretty powerful at the moment.
One thing you addressed in your original post that I do tend to agree with is that throwing Javelins seems a bit to unreliable overall, and if I ever had the opportunity to look at her again, I might seek to increase their reliability at the cost of range, or something like that. That said, we don't currently have any plans to work on her.
Do you have any data representing how many spear were hit pre and post nerf? I feel like the numbers on that would be really interesting.
My thoughts are that her kit and where Riot is trying to get her kit revolves around getting a mark on an opponent then jumping in for the kill.
"These changes continue to pressure Nidalee to really commit with cougar-form takedowns, instead of constantly fishing with poke from afar. " - Patch 5.15
But if Nidalee players cannot land spears, how can she get a mark which would encourage her to use cougar form as mentioned in the patch? Her traps have a time delay on activation so they cannot be placed under a champion and no player is going to randomly walk over them in lane. Again, not many opportunities to want to commit to cougar form takedowns.
Instead of making spears harder (nearly impossible) to hit why not reduce the damage or increase the mana cost. Lowering damage means no fishing (no more than ezreal and his q's). Higher mana costs means less javelins thrown. Late game mana costs could be run on a similar system as kog'maw or kassadin ult.
Hugify1 votesNidalee's speara were still too powerful,and losing 1/2 of your hp from fog of war was infuriating.
I think they should move her power elsewhere,probably In her leap combo.
Nidalee SO NYAAA1 votesTaking away the heal and give her something that fits her.