Please Roll Back Nidalee Buffs (message from a nidalee main)

MacbethAndCheese·Feb 6, 2015·41 votes·5,142 views

Ever since the most recent buffs that allow everyones favorite kitty (sorry ) to hunt monsters, I have been hearing nothing but how OP nidalee is in jungle.

Now i know the way that riot balances things, and I worry that instead of rebalancing her so she less strong in the jungle (reducing her damage to jungle monsters) they will nerf her damage straight out, which will make her weaker in every respect. So im just asking, as a true nidalee lover, dont make her useless in lanes to make her not op in jungle, just revert your changes so she doesnt become the next olafed champion :(

69 Comments

AquariusGineFeb 7, 20158 votes

It really says something about Riot's balance, when people get worried about their favorite champion being nerfed into oblivion just because they are used in LCS.

AnonagonFeb 6, 20157 votes

She doesn't need nerfs just for the jungle - she has high pick and win rates in Top and Mid too. The simple fact is, she's too strong. And I'd rather have her be a jungler than a laner, because it makes more sense thematically. If I had to say anything specific needs nerfing, it would be her spear and heal scaling.

AbyssphereFeb 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She doesn't need nerfs just for the jungle - she has high pick and win rates in Top and Mid too. The simple fact is, she's too strong. And I'd rather have her be a jungler than a laner, because it makes more sense thematically. If I had to say anything specific needs nerfing, it would be her spear and heal scaling.

I'm curious as to what's going on here. Her win rate in both top and mid has apparently shot up this patch, but the change only affects jungle Nid outside of stuff like escaping into the jungle with Pounce... Wonder what caused the raise.

MrBuffingtonFeb 7, 20152 votes

I'm also very curious; there's also that visual bug where headhunter Nidalee spears aren't visible, that might be something? I mean, also she can sort of more reliably use her spear to get vision on monster camps, assuming she can hit a large monster or the small monster doesn't get one shot, but her trap already granted vision so I don't think that's a big deal either. Her win rates before this patch were at like, 47%, up to 49% according to lolking.

Leaf of the lakeFeb 7, 20154 votes

Headhunter nidalee bug is probably the main cause. If you can't see a spear, good luck dodging it.

metaworldpeace10Feb 7, 20156 votes

I don't like the way nidalee has been made. She's still toxic as hell to play against.

disregardableFeb 6, 20154 votes

Seriously, she's not even that good of a jungler.

PhriteFeb 6, 20156 votes

Say wot? She has a 55% win rate in jungle. Pretty sure she has the highest win rate in the jungle atm. That rating is based on Plat+ games only.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Jungle

DiostukosFeb 6, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Say wot? She has a 55% win rate in jungle. Pretty sure she has the highest win rate in the jungle atm. That rating is based on Plat+ games only.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Jungle

You guys should hold off on using that site for a good while and let it get a lot more sample stats:

Nidalee Jungle 16.84% Role Rate 10,270 Analyzed This Patch

Jarvan IV

Jungle 86.24% Role Rate 124,758 Analyzed This Patch

PhriteFeb 6, 20157 votes

Because 10,270 games isn't enough data? That's simply not true at all.

DiostukosFeb 6, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Because 10,270 games isn't enough data? That's simply not true at all.

Seeing as how Lee Sin and Jarvan have about 10x as much data, I think 10k isn't enough for a relatively new site.

PhriteFeb 6, 20152 votes

What does the amount of Jarvan or Lee games have to do with Nidalee's stats? Yes their stats may be MORE accurate due to larger numbers but that in no way shape or form means that Nidalee's numbers are inaccurate.

qetzelFeb 6, 201515 votes

Actually, the 10,000 is about as accurate as the 100,000. Diminishing returns. YAY STATISTICS!

DiostukosFeb 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Actually, the 10,000 is about as accurate as the 100,000. Diminishing returns. YAY STATISTICS!

That's interesting, actually. Can you explain how that works?

PhriteFeb 6, 201516 votes

After a certain sample size your data pool is large enough that it really matters less and less to get bigger numbers. It's sort of like you've proven your point and gotten enough data for statistically significant results but you are continuing to collect excess data is that is repeating the same findings while not giving you much more weight to your statistical significance.

10,000 games is a metric ton considering that generally speaking the Law of Large Numbers could be met with a sample size of 400 with a p value less than or equal to 0.05.

Here's an article with maths that sums it up nicely in comparison to my poor attempt at a layperson's explanation. http://badassdatascience.com/2013/09/06/diminishing-returns-on-increased-sample-size/

NarasimhaFeb 7, 20152 votes

Now I could be wrong, I haven't taken Stat in a LONG time, but doesn't the significance of the sample data have to correlate with the total population? In this case, there are at a super bare minimum, 1,000,000 playing League. Assuming each person plays one game, thats a grand total of...1%. On the other hand, Lee Sin and J4 have around 10%. That is a considerable difference in context.

Kitten of EvilFeb 7, 20153 votes

The other thing is, most of these winrate aggregators aren't even sampling. They can pull statistics from literally every game. It would be like polling every single person in the country.

Acidic PuddleFeb 7, 20151 votes

Im in stat right now, and actually it is bad if you get above 10% of the population. I dont really understand why but the independence condition for testing these kinds of things is: (Sample size) > 1/10(Population size)

Drunk RummateFeb 6, 20154 votes

I used to like Nidalee a lot when her AD build was popular. She actually had presence in lane and was fun to play. Since they've shifted her back to AP I've really disliked playing her in lane, so pushing her into the jungle was one of the best things Riot could have done for me and it really sparked my desire to play Nidalee again.

I feel like if they knee-jerk nerf Nidalee in the jungle it will make a huge statement about what they want the meta jungle to be, and I'm not sure I would agree with it. Currently she's one of the first completely different champions if you compare her to J4/Lee/Vi/Kha in the way she operates. Quite frankly, it's nice to be able to play a champion that isn't one of those four and actually have a dramatic impact on the game.

More than anything, I would like to see more champions brought up to Nidalees level to give us some real diversity, rather than have her get nerfed back down to "lane only" Nidalee again and go back to the 'only bruiser/fighters in the jungle' meta again.

Auz the RipperFeb 7, 20151 votes

I haven't seen Kha in forever

Newbert NewmanFeb 6, 20154 votes

I don't want them to roll back the buffs, cuz I've been secretly (and actively among my friends) asking for this since I first played Nidalee before S1.

DecaedeusFeb 6, 20152 votes

Liar. Nidalee didn't even have Hunt before S4.

Newbert NewmanFeb 6, 20158 votes

I've been wanting jungle nidalee to be a thing since S1 because the theme of the champion is more suited to the jungle. I didn't say anything in my post about wanting "Hunt" to be changed lol, just Nidalee to be a jungle champ.

MacbethAndCheeseFeb 8, 20151 votes

I love it too (i always wondered why she didnt get it when they did the rework, but it makes her so strong that It concerns me item 3070 )

MrBuffingtonFeb 7, 20153 votes

Fellow Nidalee main here; I've also been pretty concerned that Nidalee is getting something else nerfed about her. Honestly though, I don't think jungle Nidalee is a problem (I also don't think AP Nidalee is going to be a stable jungler; AD Nidalee has more potential as a jungler imo, but I've discussed this at length in other threads) aside from one thing; the root on hunted monsters. This is basically a Nidalee specific loophole to the soft-leash changes they made that killed all the ranged junglers (ie. Twisted Fate) before (as a reminder, the old soft leashing let ranged junglers clear while basically taking no damage, which is why they nerfed it). Given that they nerfed soft-leashes, I'm pretty sure this is an unintended effect.

This is what really allows her to get those early ganks off; otherwise her sustain in jungle is pretty iffy early, much like many other junglers. I think the intended use for the root is to allow Nidalee to pounce over walls to monsters after a max range spear, otherwise the monster would just walk out of pounce range, so I'm thinking if they just make it so only "max range" spears (1300-1500 range, where she gets max damage) roots monsters, since that way she'll be well outside auto attack range and can't "soft leash" for herself.

There's also the clear where she leashes monsters into traps for extra damage, but I'm not sure if this is as abusive; it does allow her to clear jungle pretty fast IIRC, so I think a cap on damage to monsters might be in order for some of her spells?

MacbethAndCheeseFeb 8, 20151 votes

the root is insane

MacbethAndCheeseFeb 8, 20151 votes

but jumping would be very hard otherwise, the just might remove it and make the player make sure they only spear when they can jump immediately

Anger FaceFeb 7, 20153 votes

I like the fact that she can hunt jungle creeps, but I don't like how it roots them. It allows her to safely farm and have increased mobility throughout the jungle (which she doesn't need).

MacbethAndCheeseFeb 8, 20151 votes

this, if she didnt root, she wouldnt be SOOO op vs crab which is where alot of hidden power comes from

ArcaneFoxFeb 7, 20153 votes

I also main Nidalee Mid. I have been taking her jungle since the new update with the rooting, and... it's amazing. However, I strongly believe that she is only OP in the jungle when the person knows how to play nid well. We all know landing the spear is really important, and what makes her jungle strong is the ganks, and landing the spears. I think a lot of nid mains are trying out the jungle, and contributing to the higher rates. The most people see good Nidalees do this, the more other people will try, and not do as good. She is not a hard champ to play, but to play her well does take a bit of skill.

I also fear an incomming nerf, because Riot loves to ruin champs that I play, and I LOVE her kit currently. Playing her jungle is SO MUCH FUN. I Main Mid, and Jungel second. I play very few champs jungle because its not as viable as last season. Nid jungle is a breath of fresh air. Every game is exciting and I just want to play more and more.

If they must nerf her, I also hope its just a minor nerf to her jungle. If they nerf spear damage, or cougar damage, Im not going to be happy because Mid lane she is PERFECT at the moment, IMO.

Her jungle clear can be iffy, just because the monsters sometimes turn away and regen life, and its really glitchy when that happens. I dont think reducing her jungle damage to MONSTERS will have a giant impact, because the issue is her insane ganking and mobility in the jungle (which of course is what makes it fun...)

I wish the pros didn't take her jungle, and she could be left under the radar and leave poor nid alone :(

GalewingsFeb 7, 20153 votes

I'm honestly worried to death about this new-found jungle dominance in Nidalee, since she is the only champ I'm comfortable going to the top lane with. I like to jungle but I'm bad at it so I wouldn't really do it with Nidalee.

Now that Nidalee can match a certain blind monk that Riot has favored over the years in the jungle I am seriously scared that they will decide to nerf her all over her kit to the point that she is just outclassed at everything by everyone. They already gutted her potential to go ad, what's going to stop them from nerfing her ap damage output as well?

Please Riot, if you're going to nerf Nidalee just decrease her damage to neutral mobs or something. Just don't absolutely gut her to trash tier!

LostFr0stFeb 7, 20153 votes

I actually really like the idea of jungle Nidalee , it's in-lane and when ganking that is the current problem.

I don't know why they don't just remove the hunted passive from lane minions. Currently she can miss her spear and still go in due to the practically pre-nerf Akali range dash from hitting a minion. It would be fine if dodging the spear did something, but currently it does not. She just goes in anyways because she gets the gap-closer regardless of hitting the champ.

Remove passive for lane minions = No gutting required imo.

what do you guys think?

-LostFr0st

DiostukosFeb 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I actually really like the idea of jungle , it's in-lane and when ganking that is the current problem.

I don't know why they don't just remove the hunted passive from lane minions. Currently she can miss her spear and still go in due to the practically pre-nerf range dash from hitting a minion. It would be fine if dodging the spear did something, but currently it does not. She just goes in anyways because she gets the gap-closer regardless of hitting the champ.

Remove passive for lane minions = No gutting required imo.

what do you guys think?

-LostFr0st

But if she hits a minion but still goes in that's a LOT of damage lost. She'd be practically a free kill if she does that.

LostFr0stFeb 7, 20151 votes

Indeed, you are correct... If you have the burst or cc to do so. Otherwise you have a very hungry kitty in your face.

In addition, due to having likely killed said creep, her spells will reset; so she is then quite sticky.

Slightly off but quite likely related: Before this, one of the Nidalee's counters used to be waveclear, but with the passive as it is now that is no longer valid.

mtman318Feb 8, 20151 votes

Her passive doesn't activate from minions (unless that's somehow changed in the last 24 hours), I don't know where you're getting that from. It only activates on champions and (now) neutral monsters.

LostFr0stFeb 8, 20151 votes

Hmm, tried it in a custom and you're right, guess she can just jump really far regardless :/ well that's moot then.

Not sure what action to take now...

Serenity NowFeb 7, 20152 votes

Riot doesn't like ranged champs in top lane because they tend to dominate melee bruisers.

So they are intentionally trying to shift Nidalee into a jungler role to get her out of top lane.

AuryielFeb 7, 20152 votes

Get ready for the idiotic Nid nerfs Riot almost never goes back so quickly on stupid changes they make

Maybe in 6 months they'll start talking about how it was a bad idea and they should have reverted it

HawkefireFeb 7, 20152 votes

Honestly, the only reason I dislike nidalee jungle is actually the same reason why I dislike nidalee period.

Her execute is literally an IMPROVED version of garen's ULTIMATE, and it is on a 4 second cooldown.

PrinceOfStormsFeb 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, the only reason I dislike nidalee jungle is actually the same reason why I dislike nidalee period.

Her execute is literally an IMPROVED version of garen's ULTIMATE, and it is on a 4 second cooldown.

Not really. Garen's ult does % missing health damage, whereas Nidalee's Q scales up with health missing, to a cap. (Maximum damage with 99% health missing is effectively 300+250% AD + 120% AP). Garen's ult, on the other hand, when maxed, deals 40% of the target's missing health.

Garen also has a 2.5 second silence. Nidalee has no CC against champions to be seen.

Garen's ult can delete a 1000HP tank, Nidalee's Takedown can't.

Nidalee is also rendered completely irrelevant by a Banshee's Veil, as it makes her spears pretty much useless.

ZelnorackFeb 7, 20153 votes

Garen would need the tank to be around 750 for it to be a near certain kill. Generally that's the area in which Nidalee would have a near certain kill.

The way this works is unless it's champion with at least 6K life, if Garens ult can kill it, Nids Q can too. Remember that the scaling at end game usually has Nid with 700 or so AP. So that's 300+267.5+840.

Please remember Nids Takedown... I believe... Scales off total AD rather than bonus. Even if it did not, that's 1140 magic damage. Equal to or more than Garens ult at that point assuming normal tank build which has ~3K life 150-200 MR. 250-300 armour. I could be 10000% wrong.

HawkefireFeb 7, 20151 votes

Keep in mind Garen's ultimate does magic damage (just like Nid's execute), however Nid generally does build magic penetration, but Garen does not. This makes her Q even more effective against enemy squishies and tanks alike.

Ada WongFeb 7, 20152 votes

There is no problem with Nidalee in my eyes, if you are having problems its because you are playing wrong, or have an unskilled team, Nidalee is too weak honestly She is a single target champion taking up a champion space on your team that could be used for a champion like Morgana or something with crowd control, she deserves the high risk high reward just like Lee-sin she is no different form Lee-Sin honestly.

If you want to beat a Nidalee understand the rules.

1.) A good Nidalee will try to get a early game advantage, so not warding, and not watching those walls, or over extending is a big no unless your jungler is near you to cover you and they are good too.

2.) Nidalee Falls off later game, assuming they don't go tank she goes down way too easily unless running tanky build which still isn't as good as a Sejuani tank for example which does more for the team over-all.

3.) If you can't catch a Nidalee or dodge spears while you catch her don't chase.

4.) I like the changes to nidalee allowing her to jungle, now they need to make Katarina and other assassins easier to jungle rather than always needing to use a champion like Maokai LeeSin Nidalee Sejuani Tryndamere or any of the such.

Also what would this game be like if the entire team shared experience points and was the exact same level at the same time rather than falling behind at all how would this work out for league it is currently in Heroes OF The Storm entire team shares experience points.

MacbethAndCheeseFeb 8, 20151 votes

the problem i see with nidalee is that she really just is CRAZY early threat wise, if she lands a spear on you (the other jungler) you have to run, or die, theres no way to fight her if she can just snipe you, and having incredible clear/map control makes it really scary (she feels alot like lee sin in that regard) (and we all know how balanced he is kappa )

SerageFeb 7, 20152 votes

RIOT does this all the time! You know Akali was fine? Then the dragon buff came with +AD and +AP... 42-45% winrate. And you know what games are funny? If your team doesnt get the buff :D

VelasanFeb 7, 20152 votes

I get the thread reasoning. They often random nerf champs seemingly out of the blue and make us fear our fave champion is the next "whack-a-mole."

The rest of it has taken a strange turn. First, her win rates haven't changed that much yet and can just as easily reflect that more people are simply playing her. In other words coincidental due to higher pick rate. The sample size is obviously large enough because N only needs to be relative to the total players to get usage rates of occurrence and not win rates.

The jg buff was obviously intended to work this way being jg specific and in response to our reaction to the current jg champ pool meta.

However, that does mean she is being looked at for buffs and nerfs. So, cross your fingers!

MacbethAndCheeseFeb 8, 20151 votes

Yea, i just worried, since everytime i see the oddone's stream, he just complains about how op nidalee is in jungle :/

MrBuffingtonFeb 8, 20151 votes

Same thing with night blue. Imls seems like the only person I've seen that realizes she's too reliant on early game snowballing, isn't a stable pick in jungle

MacbethAndCheeseFeb 8, 20151 votes

imls seems to have a complete different view on most things

MrBuffingtonFeb 8, 20151 votes

He's also more invested in the Korean meta, so that's something to consider, but I do think he knows what he's talking about. Nidalee excels in skirmishes, where the current meta is pretty big on huge teamfights and AoE.