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Zoe's Real Problem IMHO

Yordle Xayah··33 votes·13,014 views

I don't think Zoe's main problem is in her Trouble Bubble or her Paddle Star. I think it's in Spell Thief.

As someone who enjoys playing Zoe a lot, I have no idea how this skill made it to the live servers and how it has survived for so long in its current form in the game.

  • Virtually no cool down.
  • Zero mana cost.
  • Upon activation, not only do you get the effect of the spell/item active but you also get a free Ahri Fox Fire for added damage.
  • You get movement speed.
  • You can pick up several spells one after the other and use them with no cost, risk or punishment.

And those are only the direct effects. Depending on the situation it can also enable you to roam with a Ghost or just get back to lane faster. Your own Summoner Spells get trivialized, as you can simply pick someone else's spells. If the enemy has a bunch of items with actives, you suddenly get so much free stuff to use. Zhonya's, Youmu's movement speed, Redemption, etc.

Very often I find myself winning fights or getting out of sticky situations just because how free and how powerful this W is. I don't think it's right that a character infamous for her burst and great neutral objective control gets to use such an overloaded skill on top of everything else. Sometimes I use a spell when I'm diving an enemy or whatever and what grabs the kill in the end is one of the missiles from the not-Fox Fire part of the skill.

I enjoy Zoe a lot, but I don't think her W is in the right place.

Tristana

55 Comments

Junkο8 votes

The only real problem with Zoe is the RNG, and maybe the speed boost.

Kind of insane that she is 1 and half years old and her W still hasn't been reworked into a healthier iteration. Just making it work something like Unsealed Spellbook instead of random minion drops would be so much more healthy instead of this "Ignite dropped 4 times in a row so I got a kill for free" or "Cleanse dropped 4 times versus a champion with 0 CC so I don't have a 3rd spell".

Ahri Baka8 votes

+1 her Q and E are fairly dodge-able the Amount of free damage and Sustain and tools her W gives is huge I get pissed off whenever I win a trade but she picks Heal or Redemption

Once I was playing adc and we were winning a 2v2 fight but somehow enemies got a redemption that won them the fight I was like : Who dafuq has Redemption at lvl 3 ? then realized it was that Zoe

not to forget the amount of Exhaust and Ignite she can pick , with her Free Sheen passive , she can do good pokes without landing anything

Titanium706 votes

I mean this has truth.. but ultimately that's no what breaks her.

Miss 10 Es is doesnt matter - hit 1 and decide the game.

The rest of her Kit is what enables her to do more and gives her flexibility but it will never be a reason to pick her.

Pretty much Nidalee 2.0

Leonaiten14 votes

Like every burst mage with enought gold or in the end game (I'm switching the "decide the game" by "kil someone", is more realistic)

Lux Orianna Ahri Velkoz Veigar

Bârd1 votes

OK, but if we already have so many champions with that exact play pattern... why balance Zoe to be just another one of those?

Isn't that kinda boring? Giving every mage the "land my skill shot and instagib" style?

I like the idea of a more DPS oriented Zoe, balancing around kiting with W/E and whittling down with P/Q/W rather than just fishing for kills with E/Q.

Z3SIeeper1 votes

CT/Balance team musta thought the whole EQ oneshot thing felt so good it should be an iconic part of her and now it is. And now that it is it's gonna be hard to change it without upsetting 90% of the Zoe mains/players.

Leonaiten1 votes

Is a cool and creative idea (make her combo simple and create a great complexity with her W).

Buuuut sadly bring a lot of problems for the Zoe player and her oponents. :/

Felvyne2 votes

Like, idk, Lissandra, Karma and, to some extend, Syndra? (Q dps, W and E CC, R is the burstkill machine). There is no type of traditional mages that has plenty of champions to play, so it's personal preference to this point.

Although I'm of the ones that think that mages should be bursting down weakened champions, no full hp in one combo. That's what was great from the wombo combo meta, you needed 2 or 3 ultimates to decimate the enemy team.

Leonaiten1 votes

I greatly agree with the first part. But the second (even tho I think is healthier for the game) is complicated. Because in the end game adcs can 3 auto attack you to death, divers and assassins became eraser for squishy champions. Sadly this problem comes with everyone, in diferent ways of course.

Aaaand we got snowball and feed champions, which ruin all of this (a fed Brand don't even need his ult to kill someone; have you ever lose 50% of HP for a Lux E?).

Anu3isII2 votes

None of them fish for kills from the same Range as Zoe.

Leonaiten2 votes

Which is hard to pull off (hiting that bubble from far away is really hard), and Zoe can have lots off problems to land her Q. Like someone body block her Q, shields (ruin her combo nicely, and due to the E delay the support will almost always have that), mobility habilities, divers and assasins engaging her (her Q+R is not so safe as many think) or a lot of itens that make her life miserable item 3156, item 3139, item 3157, item 3102, item 3222.

And, most importantly, she need to have some lead to be able insta E+Q someone (her lots off Q nerfs made the job).

Meteora7071 votes

having ori and vel here makes no sense at all, veigar has 0 kill pressure after blowing his ult while zoe still has kill pressure on everyone from across the map. ahri? yeah shes also broken as fuck.

Leonaiten1 votes

Ori (Q+W+R), Vel (E+W+R).

If we have to disconsider ultimates you are getting to specific with the way the champions erare squishy champion, and kinda biased against Zoe, because she doesn't have a high impact/teamfight ultimate to use in her combo (which is bad by itself and also justifies the fact that her main burst resolves around her Q+E combo).

And, about veigar. A squishy champion can die for his Q+W combo depending on the champion and the Veigar state in the game.

Meteora7071 votes

ori combo doesn't actually kill anyone unless shes fed af, vel can spray you down if you have nobody on your team to retaliate or the ability to do so yourself yes.

kinda biased against Zoe

its not biased against zoe just comparing her to the champions you listed makes no sense, shes a lot more like leblanc, lux and zed, she just deletes you from mass range and gets out, the only difference is that she has the least risky and lowest CD option out of all of these.

And, about veigar. A squishy champion can die for his Q+W combo depending on the champion and the Veigar state in the game.

either its way past the time where games end or the veigar is 10-0 for this to happen

Leonaiten1 votes

My list was from mages who can consecutively try to burst single target with a full combo and kill its target. And this usually done by hitting one normal hability (like Vel E, Lux Q, Veigar stun or Zoes E).

Usually this only apply when they are going well in that game (same for Zoe, she is too AP dependent to deal damage) and that indeed is applied to all that champions that I listed (the point where Zoe can one shot someone with her Q+E is the same that Oriana can kill someone with her combo, she needs to be pretty fed). I was not counting any other external fact, even less the help from teammates (which is also the best counter for Zoe's combo too, actualy) or the habilities that are used for the combo.

Meteora7071 votes

Usually this only apply when they are going well in that game (same for Zoe, she is too AP dependent to deal damage)

this sounds like you have never played against a zoe tbhq

Leonaiten1 votes

I main Zoe (not in this account btw), and I know how she can be shit if you are stomped in the early game (usually for assassins) and stay behind in the rest of the game, she simply doesn't do damage and die easily (kinda of the default for a mage).

Meteora7071 votes

its quite difficult to get behind on zoe with her low mana cost waveclear, its also quite hard to die to assassins since you can just bubble em point blank.

Leonaiten1 votes

Her wave clear (and damage) is horrible in the early game, her mana cost is good, but not the best.

And the second didn't make any sence, because I could say the same for all mages with hard CC.

And you forgot her lack of mobility, vulnerability after using E and how hitting her E is the only option (without considering Summoners Spells) to avoid being killed by an assassin.

Netorare2 votes

{quoted}

I mean this has truth.. but ultimately that's no what breaks her.

Miss 10 Es is doesnt matter - hit 1 and decide the game.

Pretty much like any other skillshot relliant champion, its not only her... its about the player smh

Frosted Tips6 votes

The best part is that it is more damage than Fox Fire and it also gives move speed and that is not even taking in the fact that you get dropped summoners and items.

Crescent Dusk5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ts076mdB,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-04-07T02:28:06.157+0000)

The best part is that it is more damage than Fox Fire and it also gives move speed and that is not even taking in the fact that you get dropped summoners and items.

In exchange Ahri's charm is far more immediate and less telegraphed. You can virtually sidestep Zoe's bubble with her blatant animation time, but you can't sidestep a close range charm ever.

Ahri's ult is also significantly better than Zoe in terms of flexibility and laning power. Ahri also has better waveclear by far and her cleave in teamfights is much better as well.

Zoe is a snipe champ, while Ahri makes charm picks but functions much more as a strong cleave+burst mage with the best mobility of all non-assassin mages (like Le Blanc).

I'd honestly face a Zoe in TF than an Ahri because Zoe's bubble has way more counterplay than a charm landing on anyone. Assassins also have an easier time against Zoe once they get on her than an Ahri post 6.

Ragnaveil2 votes

Ok, but if Ahri misses, she loses out. But if Zoe misses, it becomes a trap that not only does the damage still, but sleeps the target for what, 3 seconds? Enough time for her to flash forward on an unfortunate ad carry that clipped a pixel of the trap and delete them with a R Q then flashing.

It Hertz When IP3 votes

Crescent's point (as far as I understand it) was that Zoe's E damage is stronger than Fox Fire because Ahri's power budget is more heavily shoved into her other abilities. Zoe's ult is interesting and a useful mechanic, but it pales in comparison to Ahri's ult.

You have to look at the champions as a whole. Is Ahri as a whole weaker than Zoe? I don't know, I haven't looked at the exact numbers, maybe. But the champion as a whole must be discussed.

Crescent Dusk1 votes

{quoted}

Ok, but if Ahri misses, she loses out. But if Zoe misses, it becomes a trap that not only does the damage still, but sleeps the target for what, 3 seconds? Enough time for her to flash forward on an unfortunate ad carry that clipped a pixel of the trap and delete them with a R Q then flashing.

I don't know how anyone walks into a clearly telegraphed zone when a bubble misses. You have to be really bad to dodge a bubble and then walk into the delayed spawn zone.

Zoe is more annoying than Ahri when sniping from the jungle, no doubt. But that is much more simply dealt with proper vision control in jungle or counterpicking like picking a Zed or LeBlanc to delete her out of jungle if she so much as wanders away from her group.

Ahri is a much more potent teamfighter imo and a better duelist by far. Zoe is the far superior poke and picks champ. In essence, one functions like an assassin while the other functions like a CC mage+assassin hybrid with more tilt toward the mage side.

Rock MD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ts076mdB,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-04-07T03:50:40.019+0000)

In exchange Ahri's charm is far more immediate and less telegraphed. You can virtually sidestep Zoe's bubble with her blatant animation time, but you can't sidestep a close range charm ever.

Ahri's ult is also significantly better than Zoe in terms of flexibility and laning power. Ahri also has better waveclear by far and her cleave in teamfights is much better as well.

Zoe is a snipe champ, while Ahri makes charm picks but functions much more as a strong cleave+burst mage with the best mobility of all non-assassin mages (like Le Blanc).

I'd honestly face a Zoe in TF than an Ahri because Zoe's bubble has way more counterplay than a charm landing on anyone. Assassins also have an easier time against Zoe once they get on her than an Ahri post 6.

Every part of this that is actually readable is 100% false.

Ahri's E is much worse than Zoe's bubble. They both have cast times and both champions have tools to gapclose on you with them, but Charm is 200 more range ONLY if you throw them straight at the person. In all other realistic scenarios, Zoe can get the drop on you because of bubble going through walls. On top of that, Charm doesn't sit on the ground for 4 seconds afterward as a zoning tool.

Ahri's ultimate is on a much higher CD than Zoe's. It functions better as an escape tool and a stick tool but "flexibility and laning power" go to the champion who can use it to threaten an all in every 20 seconds w/o blowing big CDs.

There's a reason that Ahri has been running Glacial Augment this season; she's simply outclassed as a burst champion. Adding characters like Zoe who do what she does much more frequently, are more lethal, and don't have to commit as many resources to do it is the big reason she's outclassed. So now she runs a utility build because that's the one thing unique to her.

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rock MD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ts076mdB,comment-id=000400000001,timestamp=2019-04-07T17:27:34.931+0000)

Ahri's ultimate is on a much higher CD than Zoe's. It functions better as an escape tool and a stick tool but "flexibility and laning power" go to the champion who can use it to threaten an all in every 20 seconds w/o blowing big CDs.

Compared to Zoe...

Ahri actually has a ultimate.

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

Compared to Zoe...

Ahri actually has a ultimate.

Zoe's R has so much functionality. Are you trolling?

VoraciousX5 votes

I disagree with her W being a problem as a lot of the time, at least early game, it's the only reason she gets a kill. Zoe does have a lot of utility and maybe she shouldn't have as much damage as she does, but then again, the damage and utility are so far removed from each other that it's not really that important if she can ghost from one lane to another. She's an immobile mage at heart, sure she has a lot of damage but that damage only comes if she's ahead. On top of this, her W is the only thing that gets her ahead. Zoe has been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed. Her damage has been lowered constantly, and some redistributed. Are we really gonna nerf her utility too when that's the only thing getting her to the point where she's ahead, despite her being really weak right now?

https://u.gg/lol/champions/zoe/build/

If anything, I think she needs buffs. I wouldn't give her straight buffs, maybe buffs with some requirements to fulfill. Perhaps take some of the things they took away and give them back, like her cooldown reduction on hitting E, but maybe increase the base cooldown on E, and increase the cooldown reduction from hitting it, so that Zoe's who hit E are more rewarded than Zoe's who just throw it out.

Ragnaveil1 votes

Im starting to think the utility is the issue on top of her E duration. If those got addressed, she could see some power come back elsewhere (and safely added in, of course. We dont need her broken again)

Warpes4 votes

don't forget her cancerous passive... miss every ability and still kills you.

where's that qtpie clip at when you need it?

Thefrostyviking3 votes

https://clips.twitch.tv/EnchantingDullYamKappaClaus

Salron1 votes

It's been nerfed since then, along with her W damage, and ignite if you wanna include everything That qtpie clip would not be possible today

Bârd4 votes

Couldn't disagree more.

It's by far my favorite part of playing Zoe, and aside from the random drops from creeps I don't really mind going against it.

I honestly couldn't care less about her E-Q combo. A champion who punishes you for using your lifelines is much more interesting to me than yet another "Land my skillshot and oneshot you" champion.

Zoe would be much healthier if they:

  • Removed the random drops from creeps.
  • Balanced her around dancing around fights with her W movement speed with a longer time to kill.
Salron1 votes

I think people would have less of a problem with her W's RNG if you could see the drops before she pops the balloons If the balloons showed what active was inside while they're still on creeps you have more time to play around her drops or seeing certain actives might push people to try and Zoe miss the kill on the minion to deny the drop

Bisaknosp2 votes

her existence

iDarkWind2 votes

If they simply removed the movement speed she gets from using summoner spells or actives on her W it would help a lot. It's so frustrating to never be able to follow her flash with your own because she will outrun you anyways, or even when you want to run away from her you also can't.

Meteora7072 votes

zoe's real problem

lists the entire kit of zoe, yeah seems about right.

MankeyMadness1 votes

I just think she needs to lose Redemption and Gun blades actives until level 9. Or tie the strength of her W actives to the rank (-50/-35/-20/-5/+10%), including Redemptions range.

Daddy Ants1 votes

{quoted}

I just think she needs to lose Redemption and Gun blades actives until level 9. Or tie the strength of her W actives to the rank (-50/-35/-20/-5/+10%), including Redemptions range.

Gunblade hasn't been able to drop from Zoe's W for a long time.

Only way she can get Gunblade is if an enemy uses it in lane against her.

V8.1 Spell Thief Minions can no longer drop shards for Hextech Gunblade.

SgtAwesomeness1 votes

I just feel its odd that all her power is in one ability/passive...

Craft Zeppelin1 votes

Well I get your frustration guys, but have you even played this champ. She is hard as balls to actually get a win these days. Her overall winrate is tanking badly.

Yordle Xayah1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Craft Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ts076mdB,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2019-04-07T07:28:27.851+0000)

Well I get your frustration guys, but have you even played this champ. She is hard as balls to actually get a win these days. Her overall winrate is tanking badly.

I opened my post by stating that I enjoy playing her a lot.

Always angry tbh1 votes

Allow everyone to see what she will get before it drops so the enemy can plan ahead and not get a random ignite on their ass, forcing them to flash which just allows her to flash after them. Maybe have each spell have a cooldown a bit like how Sylas R works. Also don't allow her to steal items. Since she won't be able to steal items anymore it'd be possible to keep track of the cooldowns with a small window a bit like Kindred and Neeko. Or a "debuff" that shows the cooldown.

Zed genius1 votes

I honestly think the damage part of the ability should be completely gone. There could be some compensation for that, but Zoe's W is not an ability that should deal damage imo.

Shahamut1 votes

Personally, my only problem playing against her is the cooldown of trouble bubble. I think if it were longer, but rewarded her with a shorter cooldown when hitting a champion, it would feel better to play against since dodging it would feel more rewarding.

Ionian Vulpix1 votes

Even as someone who is a big fan of Zoe, I hate her W. It's too random. I've seen her go 4 waves without a single bubble minion.

Kenneky1 votes

One thing I wish her W could do is steal random summoner and item spells from minions. She can get summoner 14 or item 3030 for free at early levels. Or at least remove the item spell steal, that will make me play agains her a bit better.

ORB1TS1 votes

Naaaaah lets keep nerfing her Q Kappa

hotarse1 votes

People who play Zoe are the problem.

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