Currently, mid is comprised of two assassins, and extremely mobile junglers with cc. if youre past your turret, even just inside its range, and you're ganked, you will die unless you have an escape. This is silly. Non-assassins are currently unplayable. You have to invest a ridiculous amount of gold in wards just to be able to lane. Thoughts?
disregardable2 votesWhen counting stuns, what mid laner doesn't have an escape?
ValyrianBlade1 votesThe problem is you can't really count stuns. It's very unreliable to land a stun or other cc on a zed/fizz, both of which have moves to easily Dodge it while they gap close on you. Then your mobile junglers also have somewhat reliable means of either dodging your cc or still applying their own even if you land yours (e.g. As ahri I can land my charm on a vi mid ult but I still get cc'd).
Sticking with ahri, pre 6 (or when ult is down), her only 'escape' is charm. It also happens to be her engage/all-in, but ignoring the fact that it can and will be down and the cooldown can be abused when ganking, retreating from a gank often requires a successful charm and even if you land it sometimes you can't escape from these lanes.
Honestly, I've taken to banning zed whenever I'm first, I manage better with fizz because I can predict where he'll land and charm him and get a lead before junglers start ganking. I was starting to learn Syndra but I can't find any opportunities to try her recently due to always being against zed/fizz/kat/LeBlanc.
AtheosisX1 votesI was starting to learn Syndra but I can't find any opportunities to try her recently due to always being against zed/fizz/kat/LeBlanc.
Seeing as Syndra has it easier than most mages against that bunch I don't see what the problem is. Just hang back, farm, and poke them from safety. Once you've got some items point and click delete them.
ValyrianBlade1 votesI find with ahri, I can harass effectively pre 6 (same as Syndra) but then post 6 have the necessary mobility to escape from ganks or to push, etc... against these assassins. With syndra, post 6 I get demolished - probably because I'm not experienced enough with her yet to "delete" them fast enough (or more accurately, I'm too inexperienced with her to know when my ult will be enough to get the kill).
My plan was just to play ahri against these champions and when I'm picking before the opposing mid, and to practice Syndra when in easier matchups. Those opportunities used to come around frequently - maybe 20-30% of the time, but recently it's been less than 5% of the time and a teammate has taken mid in those cases.
Thanks for the advice though, I may just start picking Syndra in to them now - I did play her against a good zed once and managed to survive in Lane (so he roamed, I pinged, teammates ignored, teammates died, he got fed, teammates blame me despite only 1 death).
disregardable1 votesYou can though. You know how? You don't overextend when your ult+flash+cc is down. Fizz/Zed may be able to tower dive you, but their jgler sure can't.
ValyrianBlade1 votesThe thing is, you can't. You know how? Because pre 6 you have no ult, the whole point I was making is that most forms of cc are not targeted and hence can be dodged, and you can't expect a player to use flash whenever a gank happens (because, as someone who plays jungle, when I gank and draw your flash I leave for 30 seconds and come back for another gank).
And it's not overextending to want to hit cs in the middle of the lane (e.g. Where the wave will always meet for the first 3 or 4 waves before you get enough skills for it to actually be pushable, and even then your opponent needs to waveclear in order for it to push back). The current meta of junglers with these mid laners make it risky to just farm, let alone push the wave at all. The weakness of fizz/zed/kat is supposed to be that mage mid laners can harass them hard pre 6 because they don't have all-in potential yet, and This weakness doesn't exist because of how easily the first gank burns your flash and the second kills you if you try to push this advantage at all.
Oh, and Lee sin can't tower dive? He's probably the most popular jungler out there. Pantheon can tower dive very effectively at low levels as well. I'm sure lots of junglers can tower dive, especially for the amount of time necessary when a zed/fizz/kat/lb is diving with them.
There really is no doubting that those 4 mid laners are incredibly strong right now (and frankly have been for a while). The free mobility tied in to an assassins 100-0 potential just gives too much high reward - no risk kit.
SEKAI2 votes
And more.
disregardable1 votesDash, stun, blink, dash, knockback, root.
All have escapes.
SEKAI3 votesYer which is what I am talking about, mid ain't that bad.
Top is prob worse, send a range top and the other team has no choice but to send another ranged character, most of the time.
Sailing Wombat1 votesif ori or zyra are ganked, they die. idk why youre including them. Additionally, you listed two S tier mids, and an S tier top, and a high tier adc
AtheosisX2 votesIf you are using a champ without escapes you should be very conservative with your pushing until you have ward coverage or you know where the enemy jungler is. Assassins are a problem, but so is your play from the sound of it.
redniwediS1 votesThere's something you should look into, it's really OP and counters these high mobility, high CC junglers. It even works well against the low mobility ones, and even some enemy laners.
MalzaharAnyLane1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sailing Wombat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T5GhxKls,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-04T03:26:24.583+0000)
Currently, mid is comprised of two assassins, and extremely mobile junglers with cc. if youre past your turret, even just inside its range, and you're ganked, you will die unless you have an escape. This is silly. Non-assassins are currently unplayable. You have to invest a ridiculous amount of gold in wards just to be able to lane. Thoughts?
I've been playing mid since pre-S1, but the last two years basically can't play it without starting a ragefest in blind pick or having an hour-long queue time.
As a mid-laner I can tell you that a strong AD Mid lane is not an issue, but the vast majority of players are really bad at the mind games required in mid lane and the problem is those assassins have kits that let you play those mindgames without the extra layer of thought behind it. That means mediocre mid-laners are getting punished much much harder than they otherwise should be. Mistakes that laners who cut their teeth in mid generally don't make, that allow those assassins to kill them as often, or get ganked.
Mages who build tanky (like they should be in 50 percent of their games anyway, e.g. starting catalyst and rushing RoA not 3 freaking dorans rings or something asinine like athenes) will do just fine. It's the ones who insist on building no HP early-mid game for fear of falling behind on damage that feed in mid when they inevitably learn they are either bad at dodging skill shots, don't ward, or don't save any CC.
You have two really good options for dealing with an AD dominant mid, and that's catalyst, and seeker's armguard. Or even both, RoA to Zhonyas is not exactly going to make you useless in mid-late game. And that is without escapes, since I main Malzahar/Fiora. I assure you, I understand both sides of the matchup intimately in terms of itemization.