Tibbers has 0 counterplay

Bophaybayquay·Sep 6, 2016·9 votes·1,155 views

Why is this ability still instant cast? Giving her ult travel time gives her it counterplay without destroying her as a character, since her q is still point-and-click.

40 Comments

AgentBlackSep 6, 201614 votes

Annie's counterplay is her short range and lack of mobility, and in turn she counters short range and mobility. No changes necessary.

Gary B EnkelisSep 6, 20168 votes

Yeah... her counterplay is to be aware of her stun stacks (which are more visible than ever), be aware of her flash and ultimate timers, and be aware of her range. It's kinda clear.

Critmaster GarenSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Annie's counterplay is her short range and lack of mobility, and in turn she counters short range and mobility. No changes necessary.

flash tibbers or flash q has more than a 1000 units range. almost as much as a full length morgana binding, while the burst is 100% reliable.

sorry, but no. annies short range doesnt actually mean anything when she can circumvent that weakness.

op is right. riot made a mistake when they didnt add a single counterplay mechanism to her kit with the mage update. her charge bar for her passive doesnt add counterplay. it just replaced her buff/visual effect indicator and added some visual clarity. but you still dont actually have a way to play around her abilities or to avoid her stun.

her kit is unfair to any opponent in lane who cant just straight up outtank her burst chain. plain and simple. as soon as she hits lvl 6, she can sit on her stun and basically zone any other mage who doesnt outrange flash+q or flash+tibbers out of lane and cs.

Doctor JarvisSep 6, 20163 votes

You counterplay the abilities by being aware of them. Pretty much just always assume Tibbers is up (because, you know, it is) and know her flashes. If you see that she has stun, maybe don't stand next to her likely target or, if you're an initiator type, get in her face and MAKE her use her stun so your carry doesn't have to worry about it. Importantly, if you ARE the main stun target, for the love of God just stay the fuck away from her. Stay on the back lines where you belong, let her die if she tries to do anything to you.

Critmaster GarenSep 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T34KbW9m,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2016-09-06T16:28:46.930+0000)

If you see that she has stun, maybe don't stand next to her likely target

here is the issue.

as soon as annie hits 6 in lane, she can SIT indefinetely on her stun and zone you from cs. no mage has the ability to waveclear only with his spells at that stage of the game. at least not for long.

most of them need to walk up to the caster minions shes sitting next to to auto attack them, or lose them to not get 100 to 0ed.

Amasa DelanoSep 6, 20162 votes

If Annie is sitting on her stun, it's really really hard for her to CS, since she can only use her AAs and her shield.

Critmaster GarenSep 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Amasa Delano,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T34KbW9m,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-06T17:07:35.878+0000)

If Annie is sitting on her stun, it's really really hard for her to CS, since she can only use her AAs and her shield.

if you dont suck at csing, auto attacks are more than enough. she can still comfortably cs while zoning her opponent with her mere presence.

make one step too close towards her in attempt to get a minion and boom, youre dead.

NoRunesMasteriesSep 6, 20162 votes

Annie can uh? only flash and tibber stun ever so often... so yeah her weakness IS when she is being harassed for not having the two, etcs.

Even when she has flash (which you should be aware about and always force her to use it) you should be denying her from stunning you hence her short range... so meaning don't play melee champions or shorter range.

The OP is just annoy with not being able to react fast enough on the stun or have the awareness to prevent the stun. Sure some of them are un-predictable but that's where you should be outplaying annie with her weakness of short range abilities/range in general or hard CC/heavy burst denying her the chance to summon tibbers pre 6/get stun up.

IceemberSep 6, 20161 votes

My biggest frustration is the buffs in 6.9. Tibbers constantly having an AoE damage and going rage mode is what kills me when I actually do survive her initial burst. It's a pain in the ass mechanic and I feel it shouldn't be there. She gets a Sion passive basically for free...

BophaybayquaySep 7, 20161 votes

saying someone has short range does not mean you are counterplaying her

that is counter PICKING, since most characters' range doesn't change in game (except for kog/tris and some other ultimates)

and saying "stay out of her range is counterplay" is like saying staying out of any range is counterplay. having instant cast abilities is an unhealthy mechanic and encourages lack of interaction...which directly contradicts what riot tends to do with all of their updates. tibbers having cast time would create interaction and make her a) not completely reliant on flash for offense and b) let her opponents have the opportunity to avoid the stun/nuke (but likely forcing them to walk towards annie if they take that risk)

NoRunesMasteriesSep 9, 20161 votes

I think you misunderstood my message...

I stated long range counters her as she has to get close hence you can poke her while she tries to gap close for poke trade which you would win the trade due to the circumstances...

Counter picking doesn't mean jack... If you are good at playing a specific champion then it's down to skills and awareness. I've played countless games where I am countered YET I still do better. People can't expect to ChampionSelect and believe X champion counter picks X champions. I mean sure they do in the senses of abilities and just champion vs champion BUT you're NOT the champion... nor are you as expected to be good as them so skill vs skill is more counter picking plus the advantage you have against annie where she can't poke long range champions who harasses her then add the equation and volia.

You do know Annie has short range right? I literally stopped reading after your first incomplete sentence of your third supposedly paragraph...

SnugglePuggle94Sep 6, 20168 votes

No, it will hurt her way too much and give all the mobile champions a way to escape it, and that removes her description as a counter to mobility. Not to mention Riot likes how Tibbers is anyway.

Critmaster GarenSep 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

No, it will hurt her way too much and give all the mobile champions a way to escape it, and that removes her description as a counter to mobility. Not to mention Riot likes how Tibbers is anyway.

annies ranged point and click stun a shitty mechanism to counter mobility. there are better ways.

her lack of counterplay doesnt just hurt hypermobile champions but other slower mages aswell. as soon as she reaches lvl 6 she can 100 - 0 someone without counteplay with ignite.

at that stage of the game even long range mages dont have the ability to waveclear with their spells yet. they still need to come close enough to lasthit caster minions with auto attacks. meaning they need to walk into annies threat range.

staying more than 1000 units away from her when shes sitting on her stun isnt actual counterplay.

SchàdenfreudeSep 6, 20166 votes

Then don't play those champions. Play some long range artilery mage like Xerath.

Critmaster GarenSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Then don't play those champions. Play some long range artilery mage like Xerath.

even xerath needs to auto attack to lasthit minions early game. no artillery mage, not even lux or xerath have the ability to waveclear from maximum distance with their spells without running out of mana in 2 waves at level 6.

SchàdenfreudeSep 6, 20162 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

try reading the first comment on this post.

Also go look up Xerath's passive. If you really think both Lux and Xerath, who both typically rush Morellenomicon first item, are going to run out of mana, you must be delusional.

Critmaster GarenSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

try reading the first comment on this post.

Also go look up Xerath's passive. If you really think both Lux and Xerath, who both typically rush Morellenomicon first item, are going to run out of mana, you must be delusional.

xerath only gains little mana from his passive when charging it on minions. its not enough to sustain him when he has to use his abilities to wavleclear early. he also has to walk into auto attack range to get the mana on a minion.

means if annie sits somewhere between or next her own minions, she is in flash/q range when he tries.

lux cant waveclear minions at level 6 with her spells alone. she needs to walk up to them into auto attack range to trigger her passive, or shes going to run out of mana really fast.

all mages. especially longer range poke mages have gigantic mana costs on their waveclear tools. it is to not make them completely obnoxious early game and force them to conserve mana by auto attacking minions to lasthit them.

its not as easy as saying, these guys can just waveclear from 1200 units away. because in the early lane phase around lvl 6 they cant.

SchàdenfreudeSep 6, 20162 votes

I am done posting to you. This is actually so stupid lmao.

Critmaster GarenSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I am done posting to you. This is actually so stupid lmao.

well. ive not seen you make an actual argument. so its not really a loss to the conversation.

BophaybayquaySep 7, 20161 votes

that is counter picking, not counterplay. counterplay, in the way that i understand it, is actions that you take based on the situation in game to counter some strategy or advantage your opponent does. like dodging a nid spear.

counter PICKING is not something you can do in game. if summoner spells were attained in game, i think you could say summoner spells are "counterplay"

but since this isn't smite, it doesn't work like that

SchàdenfreudeSep 7, 20161 votes

I'm really sorry but you basically went from +6 upvotes to -8 downvotes so rofl.

NoRunesMasteriesSep 6, 20162 votes

Yes let's ADC melee form the Annie...

SchàdenfreudeSep 6, 20164 votes

I like how this guy went from 5 upvotes to instant 0. lol

SnugglePuggle94Sep 6, 20161 votes

Ah haha I might've had a hand in that lol

BophaybayquaySep 6, 20162 votes

Should her ult have travel time? Yea or nay?

Gary B EnkelisSep 6, 20165 votes

I see no reason for it.

NoRunesMasteriesSep 6, 20163 votes

If so then Ashe's ult should have a reloading the big gigantic arrow onto the bow where she then pulls back with all her might reload time...? Ya?

BophaybayquaySep 7, 20161 votes

yes, a channel on ashe ult would be fairer. the longer you channel, the longer the stun. or make the stun have a shorter duration at close ranges

but that is irrelevant

NoRunesMasteriesSep 9, 20161 votes

It was sarcasm. That would kill her ultimate... and her ultimate at close range IS already a short duration.

RalanrSep 6, 20162 votes

Didn't you already post this?

BophaybayquaySep 7, 20161 votes

yeah i was trying to add a poll but it wouldn't let me, plus i had worded what i was trying to say incorrectly

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20162 votes

Better nerf yasuo?

VoidStaresBackSep 6, 20161 votes

Better nerf Irelia.

GULAG 4 USep 6, 20161 votes

But we gotta QQ about yasuo, and scream for nerfs because we can't play around his kit...

~~when it's actually neraly fucking impossible to play around irelia's, can we qq about her now??~~

redfeenixSep 6, 20161 votes

You can smite Tibbers. Easy counterplay.

BophaybayquaySep 7, 20161 votes

if smite was on an item that you bought in game, yes.

i think they actually do that in another game...(spoiler alert, it's smite)

LoLKiruSep 6, 20161 votes

Xerath main here, He's fine mana wise once he has morellonomicon (as long as you aren't spamming your spells every time they come up, and he doesn't need to because Annie can't really complete with his waveclear lol)

While I think Flash Tibbers lacks adequate counter play, it would be utterly stupid to balance around flash in that regard; its a 5 minute cooldown, and if you balance someone around using their flash to initiate, it makes them feel like complete crap when they CAN'T use it to initiate.

Many things in this game lack counterplay when combined with flash, I just don't think we should be balancing around something thats only up maybe..... 7 or 8 times in a game at most, and thats not counting the times you're forced to use it defensively.

BophaybayquaySep 7, 20161 votes

instant cast abilities in general have 0 counterplay. and i think it's more interesting and fair for her to throw her bear. like a ziggs ult, the speed tibbers comes out could be affected by distance. so if you were a bit closer than max range ult now, it could still be instant. but from a bit farther away it would have travel time (and also a bit more range to compensate)

i think it's at least worth considering