Tenacity worthless or is it just me?

MadViking·Oct 23, 2017·57 votes·4,106 views

Merc Treads , Sterak proc and Swiftness.

Still CC locked.

Lel.

62 Comments

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 23, 201728 votes

Nope.

A large problem is that tenacity does fuckall against displacements. A large amount of skills in the game (I'd argue at least 30-50% of CC) is displacement based. Which means your tenacity means fuckall.

Champion SkinOct 23, 201714 votes

A large problem is that tenacity does fuckall against displacements. A large amount of skills in the game (I'd argue at least 30-50% of CC) is displacement based. Which means your tenacity means fuckall.

Suppression is also unaffected by tenacity and there are also tethers (Morgana R which applies a slow while attached) and other reapplying effects like DoT's + Rylais or Soraka silence field or other such fields

All of those are unaffected by tenacity

5000000000000000Oct 25, 20171 votes

Does Morgana ultimate reapply slows? I thought it only applied the slow at the start. But agreed on the general idea.

Shadow HazardOct 23, 20176 votes

I actually counted once it is just lightly over 49% is displacement.

5000000000000000Oct 25, 20171 votes

That's probably constantly changing, too. Was that based on number of CC spells?

Shadow HazardOct 25, 20172 votes

I explicitly counted only the hard CC's. Even if it has been changing, since I have counted the only change that could be noted is the evelynn charm. That wouldn't even be a single percent change. Displacements are out of line and there is zero answer to them in a similar way that shields are currently out of line.

Professor WardOct 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Nope.

A large problem is that tenacity does fuckall against displacements. A large amount of skills in the game (I'd argue at least 30-50% of CC) is displacement based. Which means your tenacity means fuckall.

Problem is that displacements are already at such a low amount of cc on average, that any reduction would be un-noticeable, or completely counter the cc outright.

Tough spot.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 24, 20176 votes

Not at all. There's a simple way to fix this: Restore the CC triangle.

Original CC triangle was:

Displacements, which were short and couldn't be countered Normal CC, which was decently long (2.5-3+ seconds on average) but could be reduced. Suppression/Channels, which were the longest CC but forced you channel and could be cleansed.

Right now it's:

Displacement, which are short and can't be countered Normal CC< which is usually the same length of time as a displacement AND can be reduced. Suppression/Channel, which is slightly longer than a displacement and can be cleansed.

It's a joke that stuns, slows and snares are so weak that I'd almost always want a displacement instead.

gemini333Oct 24, 20173 votes

Are you talking about knock-ups? Displacements also include knockback/knock aside/pull, most of which are still quite short.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 24, 20172 votes

I group them all together. While displacements are short, they're also some of (if not the) most damaging CC because they push you further into/away from a fight. Knock-ups/knockbacks also usually have a stun attached to them, to prevent you from flashing out of it or something.

TwitchInMyPantsOct 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Are you talking about knock-ups? Displacements also include knockback/knock aside/pull, most of which are still quite short.

Stuns/roots have been getting shorter and displacement is about the same and there's more of them than there used to be in the game. Its basically creating a situation where they're more desirable and gradually becoming more common. Most stuns/roots/ect are .5-2s, knockups and knockbacks are usually 1-1.5s.

They're shorter but when other cc is often gated to match that duration or is only slightly longer, standard cc just ends up being weaker. Pretty much some of the last remaining exceptions are Morgana Q and Ashe arrow and their power budgets are pretty gated around the potential of those skills.

BarcidOct 27, 20172 votes

A lot more knock-ups are AoE than stuns as well. In fact I can't think of any knock-ups or displacements that can't affect more than one unit.

Champion SkinOct 25, 20171 votes

Displacements, which were short and couldn't be countered

There is one way to counter displacement item 3140 + summoner 4 (or some other mobility to override the displacement with)

Though all other forms of CC can be removed with only item 3140

And displacements does have one more strength you didn't mention in that they override/cancel dashes which is quite powerful of an effect and any displacement no matter how minor has this effect

BarcidOct 24, 20171 votes

Hi, Cap'n! I did a post about this where people said it wasn't a problem because intelligence is hard to use.

Approximately 50% of the champions in the game have some sort of displacement or knock-up, some of which have multiple of these.

Enjoy that.

ModCaptainMårvelousOct 24, 20174 votes

While the first part of your sentence is a bit harsh, I'm kinda surprised that displacement is so high. I was afraid of listing 50% because I feared I was highballing but shit, that's a lot of displacement.

LeetriOct 24, 20173 votes

To be fair, a lot of those are things like Trundle's pillar that only knocks up for a split second. Even if that was a regular stun tenacity wouldn't do anything with it because it's so short in the first place. Fun fact, tenacity does actually affect displacements because they consists of 2 things: a movement blocker and a stun. If you used something like QS or had enough tenacity you could flash while being displaced because you removed the stun that prevented you from using abilities. I remember hearing about people doing that against Lee Sin's ult when he was all the rage.

Champion SkinOct 25, 20172 votes

To be fair, a lot of those are things like Trundle's pillar that only knocks up for a split second.

Well then again any displacement no matter how minor is still good enough to cancel a dash if timed correctly

Sahn UzalOct 23, 201710 votes

The issue is that a lot of champions, especially more recent releases have a lot of Knockups, knockbacks etc, which are unaffected by Tenacity.

420 gramsOct 23, 20174 votes

Theres just too limited ways to get it, do you can't scale it. It would be a lot better if you could buy another item that gave 15% tenacity so you could build 50% in items, which would make a meaningfull difference.

PhantomGGOct 23, 20174 votes

Honestly it depends on the champion, for example Merc threads against malzahar can and WILL save your life. Malphite? Naw you dead man.

BenParadoxOct 23, 201711 votes

Tenacity doesn't reduce suppression duration.

Hèntaî Oct 23, 20176 votes

That mr will save your life though

KloqdqOct 23, 20174 votes

For the most part, Tenacity itself isn't terrible. It is actually quite nice to have tenacity and a lot of it. Part of the issue with how Tenacity works however is because it doesn't affect knockups, knockbacks, and just displacement in general. Due to this, and most champions have that as their main form of CC nowadays, it's really hard to see tenacity as a good and valuable stat. Now if we get more of it throughout the game than I think it would be a lot better but making these kind of affects also being affected by tenacity is just something RIot needs to do now.

Champion SkinOct 23, 20171 votes

It isn't just displacement there are other effects which aren't really affected by tenacity in any meaningful way

Like tethers (Morgana R applies a slow while attached and LB chain used to before the rework) and Suppression, Rylais + DoT and fields like Soraka silence field or Singed slow + grounded field (and any other effects that reapply CC)

KloqdqOct 24, 20171 votes

That's also true. Some of those I can completely understand why they don't work. Soraka silence field makes sense because it's a field that has a set time. Something like a Suppression on the other hand makes little sense. I can even understand tethers to a degree. Really CC is in a similar place to where missiles or stealth were; they need some serious recoding and updating to how they work because right now they are confusing and the main counter is pretty weak when it should be just that, the main counter.

Champion SkinOct 24, 20171 votes

Some of those I can completely understand why they don't work.

Some? Well actually all of them have a reason to not work

Tethers usually have some end effect so having it end faster is usually bad and some tethers deal damage while they last and Tenacity reducing this damage would be a bit weird.... DoT's with some CC effect like Rylais obviously aren't affected by tenacity since the duration of the DoT isn't affected by tenacity (well it does affect how long the last tick of the Rylais slow last but that doesn't really help that much) **Suppression ** are usually channeled abilities which means that the caster is also unable to take actions and having the target get out of the CC before the caster is finished channeling the ability would be a bit weird (they are also usually ultimate abilities so them not being affected by Tenacity is kind of fair) AoE fields constantly reapply the CC while in the area so tenacity obviously can't do anything against it (since lowering the duration of the CC doesn't do anything when it is just reapplied again)

There is also terrain creation which can be quite powerful (especially so against immobile champions) and obviously tenacity doesn't affect it as it isn't counted as CC

KloqdqOct 24, 20171 votes

Suppressions, DoTs are the worst ones in my mind and what it really comes down to is why doesn't tenacity effect the strength of a CC effect. For example in Paladins you can get tenacity and it actually will weaken the effect of say a knockback massively. It's not impossible and would make something like a Lee Sin kick causing the target to not go flying back as far. That's where I think tenacity could go in League. It would be rather strong but I think it could greatly help weaken some effects.

Champion SkinOct 24, 20172 votes

Well of course you could make Tethers and other DoT effects that also apply CC tick faster (keeping the damage the same) however the obvious downside is that it would make you take damage quicker (making health regen and such less effective against the DoT)

And displacement are incredibly powerful not only because they can't be reduced by tenacity but also because it overrides other movement effects like dashes.... and interrupting an enemy dash is often a good way of getting them killed

LuigreinOct 23, 20171 votes

Yeah the fact that tenacity immune CCs are more common now has hurt tenacity some (not that there was ever a time without them, they just seem more prevalent now) but it can still be handy for other CCs. I treat it more like a counter stat to certain champs than a general purpose anti CC stat now. Enemy Morgana? Sure I'd love to shave just about a full second of that max snare length off. Tenacity isn't BAD, its just more niche than it used to be and the main source (Merc treads) is in competition with several other mutually exclusive options that have more general bonuses.

KloqdqOct 24, 20171 votes

Yeah. I would love them to do a similar pass to CC and tenacity like they did with vision and stealth or missiles in general.

Death RexOct 23, 20174 votes

If you really want to feel tenacity, play Garen and press W 0.50 seconds before a CC hits you. Voilà, here you go.

For every other champ, I have to agree.

AirKingNeoOct 23, 20173 votes

That's because he gains insane level of tenacity.

That's not even close to 30%.

KrinuOct 24, 20171 votes

Yeah, he gets... I want to say 60% from his W for the first 0.75 seconds, then 30% afterward? Something like that.

BârdOct 24, 20174 votes

If you're buying item 3111 and item 3009 in the same match, there's a problem here, and it's not tenacity.

Mercs effect most CC. The exceptions are suppression and airborne, which have trade offs.

Suppression can be cleansed by QSS and is dependent on a channel.

Airborne can also be cleansed with a QSS (in combination with a mobility spell), and the durations are generally low to begin with (the longest knock up in the game is Kalista's max rank ult, at two seconds).

GrReaper96Oct 24, 20172 votes

Airborne can also be cleansed with a QSS (in combination with a mobility spell), and the durations are generally low to begin with

How is that a tradeoff? Most if not all forms of hard CC can be QSS without even the need of mobility and at a much longer interval to react. Disabling CCs like stuns usually arent very long either.

TwitchInMyPantsOct 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you're buying and in the same match, there's a problem here, and it's not tenacity.

Mercs effect most CC. The exceptions are suppression and airborne, which have trade offs.

Suppression can be cleansed by QSS and is dependent on a channel.

Airborne can also be cleansed with a QSS (in combination with a mobility spell), and the durations are generally low to begin with (the longest knock up in the game is Kalista's max rank ult, at two seconds).

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Swiftness_(Season_2016_Mastery)

I thought it was obvious what he was talking about, most people who talk about balance aren't dumb enough to buy two boots

Shuyin178Oct 23, 20173 votes

We're getting a lot of Tenacity this pre-season, so look forward to that ^-^

KoKobotoOct 23, 20176 votes

I feel like "a lot" is an under statement. This is huge @-@

On average 50-60% tenacity for tenacity focused builds O-O

Than you got a bunch of niche cases like Irelia and Garen.

Champion SkinOct 23, 20174 votes

Tenacity is not additive it is multiplicative which makes it less effective than one would think when it is stacked

For example item 3111 (30%) + item 3053 (30%) + item 2138 (25%) = 63.25% Tenacity (**NOT **85% Tenacity)

0.7 (30% reduction) X 0.7 X 0.75 (25% reduction) = 0.3675 = 36.75% CC duration

1 - 0.3675 = 0.6325 = 63.25% Tenacity

KoKobotoOct 24, 20172 votes

Merc Treads + Sterak's Gage is additive so that gives you 60% off the bat lmfao.

However you don't even need sterak's to achieve 50-60% tenacity. I've played on PBE with tenacity focused builds and 50-60% is really easy to pull off.

Merc treads + Legend: Tenacity + Perseverance is all you need.

DurzakaOct 24, 20172 votes

And then you pick Irelia and can never be stunned.

And then someone hits you with a knock up and you cry as you crumble before the enemy.

SkorchOct 23, 20173 votes

That depends. A full Tenacity Garen/Irelia it really does help. However, I see a lot of people expecting to just be flat immune to stuns for buying mercs and im sitting here like http://crankycoder.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/What-Meme-13.jpg

DragonSheaOct 23, 20172 votes

{quoted}

That depends. A full Tenacity Garen/Irelia it really does help. However, I see a lot of people expecting to just be flat immune to stuns for buying mercs and im sitting here like http://crankycoder.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/What-Meme-13.jpg

People want their tenacity to be effective.

SkorchOct 23, 20172 votes

Yeah but a Merc/Sterak Irelia gets stunned WAY less. But a Malphite with just mercs? no.

PePsiLemoNNOct 24, 20172 votes

Not just you , there are lots of salty bruiser mains on the boards cause they can't make every CC useless.

iLBGAMingOct 24, 20172 votes

I mean the highest Tenacity you can get is by buying these item 3111 item 3053 item 2138 , but yeah I agree no matter how much tenacity you will get you will get CC chained, something I don't consider healthy in this game. But at the same time I get why it exists... Yasuo Riven MasterYi Zed Katarina

ProfirixOct 24, 20172 votes

Tenacity should affect displacements by applying the percent tenacity to the displacement range. The more tenacity you have, the less you should be moved.

ShiznyteOct 24, 20171 votes

It's worthless VS knock ups that's for sure... and it seems like more and more champions are getting knock ups!

JackMcSnipeyzOct 24, 20171 votes

Oh sorry, i guess you want tenacity to cut all CC by half? CC chain means enemy team are wasting all their CC on you, tenacity isnt supposed to make you ignore CC but help you soak it and get away slightly faster, it also helps in 1v1 against champs who rely on stuns

Rıots Bad ClientOct 25, 20171 votes

I'd actually would really like if it help me more the more times they stack.

So for example. lets get crazy and lets say I got 30% Tenacity, A big boi Fiddlesticks comes to spook me, but with my tenacity his fear go from 2.25 to something like 1.75. which is fair. BUt now, IF Morg comes all mosey on, and snares me. I'd get a +4% tenacity for every 10% I got so I get a bonus 12%.(So I get 42%) So that snare she goes from 3 seconds to a 1.75(or something)

And now lets say an ash hits me with her Big stun Full map distance. I don't gain the extra, I just get to keep the 42% and the buff stays and keeps refreshing the more I'm CC'd.

This way stacking CC on a dood with tenacity becomes less reliable, but with champions that have just 1 cc, will only have that original 30%.

**Tldr; ** For every 10% of Tenacity you get from items has a trigger effect so that when you first get hit with a CC You will get a bonus 4% The Buff is only applied after the First CC is used up. The buff only is triggered once but is refreshed upon eating another CC