Question about upcoming locket changes, Shaco, last season game statement and current meta.

LightingSaber··30 votes·2,888 views

1st of all im sorry for my bad english, Im having hard times of writing this wall of text. Anyway I hope u gonna understand what am I talking about. I want to ask some questions as a player which started to play this game in late 2009 and this season is the 1st time im really thinking to quit the game because i dont get most of huge changes especially last 6-7 patches. and its becoming more and more unpleasant for me to spent time in.

Let's start here: The 1st is: i almost got a heart attack when i've saw the item 3190 changes on pbe(which were moved to 8.6). Can any rioter explain their desision about this rework and which positive changes to the game you think it will bring? Because for me it looks the most disgusting change to the game ever and i clearly see what gonna happen(subjective ofc).

  1. This item gonna be overpowered even if it will be changed to 0 armor+magic resist and it gonna cost more then 3500 gold, because if u have this item u gonna turn over every 2v2(as a jungler+ laner vs jungler + laner, for example) or botlane with shield\tank support vs an ap support(cause locket naturally fits tanks and utility suppots, but not for an ap).
  2. Every defensive item(ga, tabi, maw, mallet) on adc increasing an effective health, so having even one of this items will make you unkillable under the locket shield area, so it gonna be like 2x times stronger then current locket in fights and such a musthave item in the game for almost every champion(if u want to win the game u need to buy it, even if it doesnt fit your champ) for its low price and only 90s cd.
  3. Falling more deep into the tank junglers meta, causes cinderhulk champions, like volibear, skarner, warwick for example(which are in such a good state right now, because of natural tankiness and huge base damage) gonna abuse this every game and they gonna win every 2v2 and 2v3 for sure, Becoming unkillable after jung item + new locket. Same with toplane (malphite, sion!!!, ornn!!)
  4. Question here: what assasins gonna do if 3 people(junger+tank+supp) in the enemy team gonna buy this and protect their mid and adc from being killed, this item gonna stop every assasin in the game even if you are fed + its cooldown is the same or even less than for example talon's or zed's ultimates at 1st 2 ranks. Even one locket in a team will counter an enemy assasin.
  5. Maybe im wrong about this, but i dont see any penalty of popping more then 1 locket back to back......
  6. From the start of this season the better botlane wins the game so if you want to win u need to camp botlane early to give your adc 1-2 kills and if hes not autofilled and almost 90% win. With this new locket disgusting twitch\kog + lulu or xayah+ rakan(not many botlanes can survive thei lvl 2 all-in) will become unkillable, so i expect how they gonna 2v5(3v5 with hard cc tank) an enemy team without any chance to turn the fight.
  7. As a result u gonna see cinderhulk junglers + lulu\janna\taric + autoattack hypercarries almost every game. No assasins at all, no off-meta champions at all. I was hoping that you will try change this tank meta after 2-3 months after start of season,and i almost sure that this is not an item players gonna see(ofc except support mains and ww abusers). Then u are nefing duskblade and adding this piece of s**t item.
  8. Current locket's version scales with level, what makes it good from mid to late game(you almost never buy it untill 2-3 completed items(except tank junglers because they dont really have another options), when new has flat 35% reducton, so how many times it will be stronger than now?
  9. This change wont be a healthy for league, JUST DONT DO THIS. the 2nd question is: Isitem 3800 not enough? You know what am I talking about. 3rd: The Shaco state and refusing to compensate duskblade damage loss on a champion which is heavily reliant on items damage because of no basic scalings. Let me explain my point of view about this:
  10. Shaco is the most item dependent assasin in the game with the most weak ealry game + his backstab is doing crit damage and its heavily countered by ninja tabi and 100% countered by getting the randuin's omen, his e can't execute a 35% hp tabi+ga even if Shaco is around 400+ ad after his E nerf + his box is not instant + oracle lens reveals him in fights, so support can shield their adc and its enough to destroy him dont forget about q animation and sound(its about "no counterplay"). Dont get me wrong here, I'm not saying that hes very weak or smth, ofc he got both some pluses and minuses. The fact is: you wanted to made him a lategame champion if i understand the rework correctly, but then u nerfed his E so the most correct way to play him is to play as an assasin. But assasin Shaco is strong lategame only because of dark harvest and items such as duskblade, ss and ie, even with this Shaco is struggling in assasination unless he is 1-2 items ahead. Ofc i'm talking about mid-high elo, not about games where people are lazy to ward and still going berserker greaves vs almost full ad low cc team with a Shaco(alot more champs can snowball game so much harder, but when people are playing vs Shaco they think that they lost only because this invisible champ is op, they dont think where they messed up, this is how low elo works, everyone is blaming an enemy champion, their own jungler or the whole team, while going 0-5 1v1 on lane or getting ganked while permapushing without vision). The question here is: why do you balance the game for people which dont want to improve their personal skill(volibear buffs for example) and refuse to compensate(not even buff, just compensate) item damage loss(especially, when this nerf hits Shaco much more then others). Here I offer a solution how to save his damage at the same state while giving him like slightly better early game( just an idea how to let him stay at least not bad\the same before rework) : take 0.25s q duration from rank 5q and add it to 1st, then cause shaco loses 200 true damage from double dusk proc lategame (which is the only chance to assasinate tabi+ga adc lategame) add this damage to his next attack after q like 50\55\70\90\120 bonus ad (gonna be almost same cause its reduced by armor(hello ninja tabi), but can crit,) for the duration of decieve and 1.5s after it ends( but reduced by 25%, so putting 2-3 points into q early will be more rewarding than now) The clone must save this buff if u press R under Q buff duration, so it gonna repeat the double dusk proc with the same damage. Reverting E to % of missed hp is another good possible change. 1 more thing about a champion's winrate: u cant compare how strong champion is only on winrate, popularity is important. For example: Shaco has around 2.5-3% overal winrate, he is an unique champion and at least 2% of his pickrate are OTP players and thats why his winrate is positive, random people cant abuse him to climb because u need to spent some time to learn how to play him correct, 1 mistake playing as Shaco can cost u a game easily. Lets take Sejuani and Warwick for example : let us suppose that at the same time this 3 champions have positive winrate at around 53% like it was around last 3 patches, but this champions have higher popularity around 15% and 7-8% and obviously less treshold, so people just abusing them to climb at every elo. So right here u can make correct desisions what to do with this champs because u have some information, but not about the clown or another specific low pickrate champion. Dont get me wrong again, i dont have anything against ww and sej state, i just wonder how mr.Meddler said that Shaco is pretty strong at every elo, which is 100% subjective and incorrect. You just cant keep game balanced if you dont play it at all, or playing one role\ 5 champs, it wont let you see the full picture of what's going on, to be honest i think LoL needs kinda get back to season 5-6(cant correctly remember which patch) to start again from better point. At least you need to listen the community and check some reddit boards if u want to see people thoughts about certain champions.

Another questionable thing(last in my post but not at all) is how removal of trackers knife(which is good change) and a normal sightstone(questionable thing, which is obviously goes with support changes, but not with both trackers+sightstone removal. I'ts kinda doing a negative impact on the game overall) interacts with LeeSin . Some people gonna stop playing him, some gonna change their builds and playstyle + there is a chance he will not lose his winrate at all(mythical), and everything looks fine, but... Lets think not from balance but from a normal player, LoL is more a popular game with a huge funbase rather than cybersport discipline, so the worst part of this change for Lee hides not in a winrate, it hides in less enjoyable gameplay and removal a key item which were with us for ages(sightstone ofc, not trackers) being a part of a champion's kit. Think about it) Some old things must stay unchangeable, the far you go from classic concept the more this game game turns into something different and impossible to control especially when u release new champions and items when their amount is almost critical.

Not that long long time ago in the galaxy of one MMOrpg( ask Ghostcrawler, maybe he knows)) some people decided that they know better what do players want(they actually said so and totally killed pvp system), and we dont, then over 4.5 million subs quit the game over last 2 expansions.

I wish i'll get any response from Riot, maybe.... Im sorry for my grammar again, I dont use english at all in my life. DONT CHANGE item 3190 OR RIOT!

38 Comments

Z3Sleeper13 votes

For locket it’s more about the concept than the numbers. Basically they want it to scale into lategame but they don’t want one person’s locket being 20x more useful than others (due to hp and level scaling).

Thus a flat % damage reduction makes more sense AND instead of adding effective shield health it just reduces damage. That means supports can’t press 1 item active to clutch save their 10 health adc with a 1000 health shield.

And with it only functioning in a zone, it has the new counterplay of “don’t fight in the zone”.

LightingSaber3 votes

{quoted}

For locket it’s more about the concept than the numbers. Basically they want it to scale into lategame but they don’t want one person’s locket being 20x more useful than others (due to hp and level scaling).

Thus a flat % damage reduction makes more sense AND instead of adding effective shield health it just reduces damage. That means supports can’t press 1 item active to clutch save their 10 health adc with a 1000 health shield.

And with it only functioning in a zone, it has the new counterplay of “don’t fight in the zone”.

Flat damage reduction is stronger than shield ( You have warwick's E for example), and i have no idea how anyone can kill twitch\kog under lulu e+ ult+ locket, they gonna destroy the whole team at 2-3 items( lulu only needs ardent and locket) if they have even a litlle lead. Op champions will become more deadly, assasins will be moved to the worst spot ever, when tanks with high base damage gonna shine even more than now. + you forgot that u can use lockets back to back without any penalty. Its unhealthy change to the game in general, dont forget that they didnt change stats, an item cost and cooldown which is too low. Games are short enough this season, they gonna be even shorter, because after one team will get a lead the game will be done. I have no idea what do rioters think about this concept, thats why i've wrote this, not only me wants a response I guess. Anyway its a crap concept, dunno why they even moved it to pbe.

Z3Sleeper4 votes

{quoted}

Flat damage reduction is stronger than shield ( You have warwick's E for example), and i have no idea how anyone can kill twitch\kog under lulu e+ ult+ locket, they gonna destroy the whole team at 2-3 items( lulu only needs ardent and locket) if they have even a litlle lead.

It all depends on what the final value of the damage reduction is. Trust me when I say a 35% damage reduction is not better than a 800 health shield.

Reason: ADC typically has around 2000 health lategame. Locket increases that by 40%. Overall 140% effective health.

New locket would add 35% damage resistance, basically meaning 100% + 35% = 135% effective health.

Overall it's a nerf numerically atm while also being a buff for less tanky users (who can't reach the insane shield levels tanky people could).

Also it can't be used to save low health targets. Someone with 200 health will only gain an extra 70 effective health while with the current locket they'd gain an extra 800 regardless of their health.

{quoted}

+ you forgot that u can use lockets back to back without any penalty.

Didn't forget. It's a non issue. Reason being this is not going to be a thing guaranteed. It may currently work like this on PBE but I can 100% guarantee there will be restrictions on this.

Now this is a huge buff to the early usage of the item guaranteed. Which is a good thing because it opens up more options for starting support items. It will most likely be having a level scaling added in the future.

Also this only affects in a zone. If they flash out or try to maneuver away from an assailant then they will walk out of the zone.

Anyway, the concept overall I have to disagree with you and say is good. The numbers can be changed. Shields in general are just too abundant right now and I'd rather have anything but them.

WiegrafOfValor3 votes

That's not how things work, that's not how any of this work.

35% dmg reduction means a lot of MR and AR worth of gold, on a class that is supposed to be squishy, on top of that if you had payed attention on what OP said his worries is an item like that on the hands of champions like Lulu and Janna that already have the ability to give shields, so they normally can cluch their ADC with 10 HP left with a 1K shield without the need of an item.

The changes to locket are extremely unhealthy and benefits ADCs and Enchanters only, will be Ardent all over again, the support that rush Locket first will win the lane.

In short: Locket will increase the value of Enchanters shields and heals making them more powerful than any other supports, while taking away one of the few options for Tank support to defend their ADCs.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

{quoted}

That's not how things work, that's not how any of this work.

I mean it is though.

In short: Locket will increase the value of Enchanters shields and heals making them more powerful than any other supports, while taking away one of the few options for Tank support to defend their ADCs.

But I do acknowledge this. And while I acknowledge it, it's still better design than current Locket.

Tank supports just need more itemization in general, they have pretty limited choice atm.

LightingSaber2 votes

Isnt it better to just add an item exactly for tank supports. They removed frost queen's claim(changed frostfang too) to stop ap laners\junglers from abusing it , new locket at a current form is going be stronger on junglers and enchanters rather then on tank supports, so it will be changed again but nobody knows how long it will stay.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

They should but that shouldn't mean we can't get more items in general.

Sorta like how people say they should balance the champions that are in the game before releasing new ones.

While they should do that, in the meantime of finding those solutions they shouldn't be shelving their other ideas.

Enchanters are definitely getting way too much right now though. With spooky ghosts and shurelias returning as well, they have like 8+ items dedicated to them while tank supports still only have 2 (Knights and Zekes).

Hopefully tank supports get on the radar again, and posts like this making front page is definitely contributing to garnering attention to the issue.

LightingSaber1 votes

Even full VGU(with all skins update ofc) of an old champion will never ever give even same money than new champ + skin + some chromas)).

LightingSaber1 votes

{quoted} the support that rush Locket first will win the lane.

Thats's what im talking about. Who wins the lane wins the game, especially when this season is 100% around botlane. Toplane and mid will do even less impact on the game.

LightingSaber1 votes

Thanks for your comments, i maybe get a little bit mad about its concept, but i think u agree with me that right now locket scales with level which cant make it a usual second buy for tank toplaners and junglers, so constant 35% damage reduction is an another issue here(didnt see u've already noticed it). I understand that Riot delayed its lauch on live because of such problems with this item, so i wish we can get some feedback there and discuss it.

50000000000000002 votes

So it would become more of an enchanter item than a tank support item? Didn't they make changes specifically to make locket more of a tank support item and less of an enchanter item?

Also, speaking of the zone, I think it could be a good idea to gradually change the size of the zone.

LightingSaber1 votes

{quoted}

So it would become more of an enchanter item than a tank support item? Didn't they make changes specifically to make locket more of a tank support item and less of an enchanter item?

Also, speaking of the zone, I think it could be a good idea to gradually change the size of the zone.

Size of the zone is not a big problem, it doesnt really matter, the problem is concept at all.

The problem is for example warwick\voli with cinderhulk+ tiamat+ this(2600 g lol) gonna just run over the map pressing it every 1.5 min(I think u agree that they are insanely strong without it) , what u gonna do if you are playing non-tanky jungler -> u just lose. U are playing an assasin - u gonna lose, there are enough shied supports, no need to change good cost efficient item into this, too many changes for the last couple of month, riot kinda lost right way to go(

y0r1ck3 votes

But it means every support has to build locket. I don't appreciate that. I want my different supports to be different.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

Eh I think it'll definitely be more comp dependent. Still a generally good item in almost all situations though.

But that's not anything different than our current Locket.

y0r1ck1 votes

Current locket scales with hp, meaning tank supports get the best use out of it. Support items are already must-build anyways, this change is going to make that even more true. That irks me.

I was wrong, everyone gets roughly equal value out of locket.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

It also scales with heal and shield power, meaning enchanters are getting roughly equal use as well.

Add on the fact that enchanters build bonus health too and the "tank supports get better use of it" argument becomes invalid.

item 3092 +200 health item 3069 +200 health item 3107 +200 health

Plus heal and shield power boosts both the base AND the ratio, whereas tank supports can only boost the ratio by building health.

Except Taric, he gets the best of both worlds.

y0r1ck2 votes

Alright, I was wrong. I still want more build diversity on supports.

Monster mode8 votes

Could you stop ignoring us Riot =]

T4underbolt8 votes

So basically the aim of this thread was to hide the true intention of the thread on the beginning. Yet another shaco main crying at a champion that is broken and has toxic game patterns that allow for free snowball.

LightingSaber4 votes

You didnt read the full thread i guess, because u just saw shaco's icon. Its more about development failure in jeneral rather than about Shaco. So if you disagree with me, just downvote.

SwiftKitten888 votes

first off the changes to item 3190 look fucking amazing.. 2nd.. lol asking for Shaco buff

LightingSaber1 votes

first off the changes toitem 3190 looks amazing because its a new mechanic for league,its true, but in current state it will bring a a huge side-effect for sure. We can discuss if u have your own thoughts about it.. 2nd..lol asking for Shaco compensation to damage loss

Slice n Dice em3 votes

Another shaco main trying to justify the item abuse on a 53% WR champion and yes he has decent PR 3%. Have you seen Vi, fiddle, Hecraim PR WR? You don't see them crying here, hiding their real intentions.

LightingSaber1 votes

U got me wrong, im talking about an item change which probably can't work as intended(with current numbers) with this meta.

Blåbæret2 votes

This thread again. Shaco is a toxic champion with hands-down the most cancerous kit in the entire game. He shouldn't ever be strong for this very reason. Thank goodness Riot won't compensate cancer.

LightingSaber1 votes

They gonna compensate kha'zix with 15% pickrate and 51% winrate))))

rtbf863302291 votes

Remove duskblade/change completley rework it and put it on a new jungle enhancement called assassin ez?

LightingSaber1 votes

[{quoted}](name=King of Clones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R37kWJGQ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-03-01T21:54:13.043+0000)

Remove duskblade/change completley rework it and put it on a new jungle enhancement called assassin ez?

Alot of champions with ad scalings gonna abuse it, + its an important part of some non-junglers kit right now, too much to rework, its better to save what we have and be more carefull with changes))

Cocho1 votes

As a Katarina main and player that enjoys playing a lot of assassins, I am really looking forward to the locket change. As it is on live, the supp or tank just has slowly react to me jumping in. Then since my damage is delayed, they will always get off an effective shield. Very low skill to using this item.

With new locket, the delay should be long enough so that I can get off most of my damage if they're playing reactively rather than pro-actively. Kinda like redemption. It doesn't really matter what the % is as the assassin player.

LightingSaber1 votes

Supports nowadays have some shields to keep their adc alive till locket activation, what do u think about its 8s duration when damage reduction is not decaying? Im not talking that im 100% right, just want to keep riot's eye on what are they doing. The main issue of this item is more about tanky junglers impact and even less potential to turn the game over even if u a little bit behind. I dont know what would i think if it was applied prev seasons, but it doesnt fit current meta in my opinion(especially without stats, cost and cooldown changes). I guess they wanted to decrease amount of towerdives and strong engages by creating defensive field, but an opposite Zac can jump in and create the same field for his team, so both teams gonna take -35% dmg which is fine, its probably was good on paper, but this item mostly gonna turn games to 1 side domination rather than this teamfights protection scenario.

Cocho2 votes

{quoted} Supports nowadays have some shields to keep their adc alive till locket activation,

That isnt different than them waiting to activate locket. It still gives me some time to kill them before locket comes into play.

what do u think about its 8s duration when damage reduction is not decaying? Im not talking that im 100% right, just want to keep riot's eye on what are they doing. The main issue of this item is more about tanky junglers impact and even less potential to turn the game over even if u a little bit behind. I dont know what would i think if it was applied prev seasons, but it doesnt fit current meta in my opinion(especially without stats, cost and cooldown changes). I guess they wanted to decrease amount of towerdives and strong engages by creating defensive field, but an opposite Zac can jump in and create the same field for his team, so both teams gonna take -35% dmg which is fine, its probably was good on paper, but this item mostly gonna turn games to 1 side domination rather than this teamfights protection scenario.

8 seconds is too long, but a team clunking together like that isnt necessarily even what you want to do. You're right on your points, but even with these numbers, it's probably more friendly for assassins just because of the delay.

GrReaper961 votes

Shurelyas Reverie is simply to replace the old item 3306

LightingSaber1 votes

item 3306 was a replace to the old shureliyas))

DracosKasu1 votes

TRacker blade was remove because only 1 champ use it mainly and this champ is also the fastest one who can gank early in-game which already many player complaint about. (See top lane)

LightingSaber1 votes

I though it was removed because other jungle items were at 0% pickrate at pro scene.

Jenks31 votes

I believe the change to locket doesn't have anything to do with raw numbers or the health scaling. They wanted to give locket some skill to use (such as giving it a limited stationary area of effect).

The Rioters have been talking lately about how reliable defensive abilities are (locket being just a click to shield button) while offensive abilities have gotten increasingly unreliable for game health reasons. This has caused the game to swing wildly in favor of the reliable defensive abilities. They want more of the defensive abilities to be like Mikael's Crucible or Redemption where some choice of when/where to use it involved and you can tell a good use from a bad use.

Now whether or not this iteration of locket was too strong, probably. But I see what they were trying to do.

LightingSaber1 votes

You are right, but i want to see smth before it goes live.

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