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Kayle is dominating lanes right now for ONE REASON

CytheGuy··47 votes·23,855 views

Kleptomancy.

Before people started using this keystone, she was in a bad place. Sub 50% winrates in every role, easy to beat with literally any laner. I said it before and I'll say it again: Soraka could beat Kayle in lane. That is before Kayle started taking Kleptomancy.

This keystone has been nothing but problematic for the game due to the way it behaves and how it counts a spellcast. They fixed this for Ezreal because he was abusing it so badly, except in his case he could also farm.

I heard from someone on these Boards that Riot planned on nerfing Kayle Jungle if they saw her playing that role too much, because it was to circumvent her weak early game by placing her in a role that could minimize encounters with other champs. Well, people are definitely circumventing her weaknesses again by giving her an early source of gold from Kleptomancy. In lane she's supposed to struggle to cs and reach her item powerspikes, but now she can easily get to them by just poking people and sitting under tower in a safe zone because you can't dive her without 3-4 people hard engaging, and even then it'd be hard to get everyone out alive at that point.

Give Kayle the Ezreal-Klepto treatment; make her e not count as a spell cast until the ranged auto lands, then give her the opportunity to hit someone for gold.

I think after this people will go back to either not playing her or dedicating time to learning how to play her, and when those people figure it out they'll post guides and videos about how to do things and her playrate will go back up to a nominal rate. I have personally dedicated my time to learning how to jungle with her, but that's kinda hard now that she's almost permabanned because she has a bad reputation in top lane.

126 Comments

Quepha61 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kayle/

Her winrate is higher with conqueror It's still 55% with PtA, Grasp, or Comet It's still over 50% with NINE keystones (out of a total of 17)

Kayle isn't strong because of Kleptomancy, Kayle is straight-up strong and Kleptomancy happens to be her best keystone. If you deleted Kleptomancy today it would solve nothing and Kayle would still deserve nerfs.

Spicy Rice15 votes

This. While klepto can give her extra gold, is isn't the reason she is strong.

She is strong because for a champ who is supposed to be dominated by everyone, she has a really safe lane, considering she has 2 spells to farm from range, as well as a self heal + speed boost.

Combine that with the ease at which she farms under tower, and she honestly isn't that bad. She isn't going to win 1v1's early, but that is a non issue, if she is able to scale up no matter what she does.

IMO, what they need to do, is give her really really bad base damages, and give her good ratios. Make it so that she really needs to farm well in order to scale, not just get levels.

SpaghettiVase3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PxBGmE2Y,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-03-31T16:12:03.772+0000)

She is strong because for a champ who is supposed to be dominated by everyone, she has a really safe lane, considering she has 2 spells to farm from range, as well as a self heal + speed boost.

Combine that with the ease at which she farms under tower, and she honestly isn't that bad. She isn't going to win 1v1's early, but that is a non issue, if she is able to scale up no matter what she does.

Not even just that. Combine all that with junglers camping toplane/mid, then vertical jungling topside making it near impossible for your own jungler to farm safely or even gank without being spotted. She only has a weak early game if the person playing her has literally no idea how to play the game, and even then a jungler can just spoon-feed her the whole laning phase and from then on all she has to do is right click.

SweedishGunner2 votes

Or they can just remove late game power in exchange for early game power and admit a late game auto win right clicker with an invulnerability is a bad design.

Sir Saltarin11 votes

Her winrate is higher with conqueror

Yeah but Clepto has 76% pickrate and Conqueror 2.6%

Anyway I agree with you overall, she's strong on her own now that ppl have realized how to play her, it's not about a single keystone making her strong.

AirKingNeo2 votes

No, it's definitely klepto that breaks Kayle. She's just an average champion otherwise and doesn't need nerfs.

karolmo4 votes

She is above 50% winrate with thirteen out of 17 keystones.

AirKingNeo2 votes

That's not how statistics work. Lower pickrate keystones will have a higher winrate.

Quepha4 votes

Glacial Augment is really low pickrate and really low winrate. Your post is a lie.

AirKingNeo1 votes

No? That just means Glacial Augment should hypothetically be even worse.

Pointing out a single outlier in data while the rest of the data fits and using it as a reason to disprove all the data is a sin when interpreting statistics.

Do not talk about statistics since you clearly do not understand them.

Quepha1 votes

You literally made the blanket statement "Lower pickrate keystones will have a higher winrate." and it looks like your best explanation for that post is that you meant something completely different from what you said. You are in no position to lecture anyone about statistics.

AirKingNeo1 votes

lower pickrate anything has a winrate. Same applies to keystones.

That's how Kayle has a 52-53% winrate throughout season 7 despite being underpowered. She had a 2-3% pickrate.

Quepha1 votes

https://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=ascend Dr. Mundo jungle has a 0.12% playrate and a 44.09% winrate. That seems like a pretty low playrate and a pretty low winrate.

(I know what you're trying to say, but you're still wrong and it's too annoying to explain why until you properly and clearly express your point)

AirKingNeo1 votes

that just means mundo sucks even worse.

again, cherrypicking outliers doesn't disprove a general trend

Quepha1 votes

You didn't describe it as a general trend, you described it as an absolute statement.

But you're also wrong in a couple other key ways.

CytheGuy2 votes

Right, I see that data now. But she's essentially pick/ban because of Klepto. The people using those other keystones found their niche, and while they are ridiculously good, they don't need nerfs nearly as badly.

UnRealDemon2 votes
  • DESERVE NERF?????? WHAT? PEOPLE who DON'T MAIN HER DON'T KNOW THE PAIN OF USING HER EARLY GAME SHE DOESN'T NEED A NERF,NERF KLEPTOCRAPPY AND LEAVE MY KAYLE ALONE ...I ONLY USED KLEPTOCRAPPY ONCE AND I LOST...... DIDN'T FEEL FUN...AT ALL FFS..ONE OF THE JOYS OF USING KAYLE IS REVENGE LATE GAME ..OH THAT SWEET REVENGE. IF THE GAME HASN'T ALREADY....over.
Z3Sleeper1 votes

Meanwhile people that do play her know that that "pain" you're talking about is nonexistent and her laning phase is actually braindead easy to get through with Klepto.

funkdubious22 votes

I’m maining Kayle since 9.5. She’s very difficult early game until reaching level 11 and even then the game shifts from leaning so it’s harder to get from 11 to 16, when she really shines.

Assuming my teammates haven’t given up by then, I find myself always being the cheer leader (good looking but judgemental one at that) and keeping people motivated. The sub 25 year olds playing can’t imagine playing past 30m mark and are ready for bed, and that’s when the adults start to shine.

AirKingNeo3 votes

#TWO POINT SIX PERCENT PICKRATE ON CONQUEROR

STOP CITING STATISTICS WITHOUT MENTIONING PICKRATE

It's fucking moronic that people fall for this shit.

Z3Sleeper7 votes

That Conqueror winrate is based on ~3,997 games played with it (3.17% of 126,000). I think that's a valid sample size.

AirKingNeo2 votes

2.6% is not enough in the slightest.

Z3Sleeper3 votes

Well let's stop looking at the percent right now and look at the actual number.

AirKingNeo2 votes

the actual number doesn't matter because it's a small sample size compared to all games.

also you ignored small pickrates cause higher winrates.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

That's not how sample sizes work tho... It's never based on percent vs percent, it's all about the flat number.

Xhaiden1 votes

{quoted}

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Kayle/

Her winrate is higher with conqueror It's still 55% with PtA, Grasp, or Comet It's still over 50% with NINE keystones (out of a total of 17)

Kayle isn't strong because of Kleptomancy, Kayle is straight-up strong and Kleptomancy happens to be her best keystone. If you deleted Kleptomancy today it would solve nothing and Kayle would still deserve nerfs.

True. Klepto might give you some extra/pots here and there - but Conquer makes Kayle even more broken after lvl 11 - paired with the usual item 3115 item 3124 item 3146 item 3078

Vlada Cut1 votes

{quoted}

True. Klepto might give you some extra/pots here and there - but Conquer makes Kayle even more broken after lvl 11 - paired with the usual item 3115 item 3124 item 3146 item 3078

OMG. My favorite build.

RiotAD Yuumi34 votes

While I understand concerns of the "riot special" (where we nerf the champion and then nerf the item/rune), Kayle is crazy strong even without Klepto. If we nerfed the rune's interactions with her she'd just switch to some other keystone (like fleet or conqueror) and be just as strong. The champion sKayle's too well with levels right now and we're adjusting that next patch before looking at any one rune or item build problem.

If we were to nerf Klepto on her, I'd rather we looked at specific abuse cases instead of just making a spell on her kit randomly not count as a spell. Am heavily considering removing her unique interaction with Elixir of Skill for 9.8 (the extra point lets her ascend early). It's working as intended on live, but that doesn't make it ideal. Since Klepto is a random rune, it felt fine that Kayle got special random outcomes. Looking at it now though, Kayle getting 16 @ 15 can feel waaaay more powerful and waaaay more random than an Ezreal getting 2 gold bags and buying a Tear or Sheen early.

ModAcademy Kayn18 votes

The champion sKayle's too well with levels right now

If you think you're capable of slipping in a pun without people noticing anymore, gonna have to try a lot harder than that.

Myrmiron7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PxBGmE2Y,comment-id=001c0000,timestamp=2019-04-01T07:49:08.280+0000)

If you think you're capable of slipping in a pun without people noticing anymore, gonna have to try a lot harder than that.

I thought that was a typo... [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Tomoe Gozen2 votes

Oh shit...
My small brain wasn't able to comprehend because i thought it was a typo.

Oleandervine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PxBGmE2Y,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2019-04-01T05:56:59.848+0000)

While I understand concerns of the "riot special" (where we nerf the champion and then nerf the item/rune), Kayle is crazy strong even without Klepto. If we nerfed the rune's interactions with her she'd just switch to some other keystone (like fleet or conqueror) and be just as strong. The champion sKayle's too well with levels right now and we're adjusting that next patch before looking at any one rune or item build problem.

If we were to nerf Klepto on her, I'd rather we looked at specific abuse cases instead of just making a spell on her kit randomly not count as a spell. Am heavily considering removing her unique interaction with Elixir of Skill for 9.8 (the extra point lets her ascend early). It's working as intended on live, but that doesn't make it ideal. Since Klepto is a random rune, it felt fine that Kayle got special random outcomes. Looking at it now though, Kayle getting 16 @ 15 can feel waaaay more powerful and waaaay more random than an Ezreal getting 2 gold bags and buying a Tear or Sheen early.

I honestly think she needs to be rebalanced across the board. Her late game is incredibly strong, and her early game is incredibly weak. I'd rather have some of that power siphoned out of that late game to put into her early. She goes from absolutely miserable to play as to absolutely miserable to play against. No other hyper carry I can think of becomes such an absolute monstrosity like Kayle does, because Kayle's power is wholly linked to her leveling, and not at all linked to how well she's doing in the game. This is a problem to me. You need to be rewarded for doing well, not simply surviving to level 16.

Furthermore, Kayle is a starter champion, one of the 450 BE ones. She shouldn't be this nuanced to play, not when new players will be exposed to her so early.

Jendalynn1 votes

{quoted}

I honestly think she needs to be rebalanced across the board. Her late game is incredibly strong, and her early game is incredibly weak. I'd rather have some of that power siphoned out of that late game to put into her early. She goes from absolutely miserable to play as to absolutely miserable to play against. No other hyper carry I can think of becomes such an absolute monstrosity like Kayle does, because Kayle's power is wholly linked to her leveling, and not at all linked to how well she's doing in the game. This is a problem to me. You need to be rewarded for doing well, not simply surviving to level 16.

Furthermore, Kayle is a starter champion, one of the 450 BE ones. She shouldn't be this nuanced to play, not when new players will be exposed to her so early.

I agree with a lot of your points, but I disagree that old champions that get reworked need to stay mechanically simple. Honestly, Riot is doing us a solid by keeping completely reworked champs available for these cheap prices. If Riot called out more clearly for new players which champs are good to start with (aside from "difficulty" which is sometimes misleading or is so buried that it doesn't get analyzed by new players anyhow), this could be more helpful.

Sire Hippington3 votes

Any thoughts on Klepto regardless of kalye? For me, it feels like a horrible design, it creates hidden power(a big gold difference/itemadvantage despite same K/D/A, CS and objectives), it's RNG based and it's part why i don't play tanks top, cause as a tank vs Klepto, you just feel like a walking Pinata... I think this rune more than any other increases the ranged vs melee issue in lane.

emarythomp22 votes

With klepto you have a change of getting 3 sly stacks of gold with 100 g each meaning you basically earned a kill for hitting ur opponent 3 times.

And it's come close in games. As illaoi i've gotten 100g and 80 g from two sly stacks. a free 180 gold. close to 200! 2/3's a kill.

This rune just needs a rework or to be removed. RNG is never good in this game.

Fízz v25 votes

Id unterstand that reasoning for other runes/items, but if you ask me Klepto shouldnt exist in the first place. so...

Anime Fizz2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot jinxylord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PxBGmE2Y,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2019-04-01T05:56:59.848+0000)

While I understand concerns of the "riot special" (where we nerf the champion and then nerf the item/rune), Kayle is crazy strong even without Klepto. If we nerfed the rune's interactions with her she'd just switch to some other keystone (like fleet or conqueror) and be just as strong. The champion sKayle's too well with levels right now and we're adjusting that next patch before looking at any one rune or item build problem.

If we were to nerf Klepto on her, I'd rather we looked at specific abuse cases instead of just making a spell on her kit randomly not count as a spell. Am heavily considering removing her unique interaction with Elixir of Skill for 9.8 (the extra point lets her ascend early). It's working as intended on live, but that doesn't make it ideal. Since Klepto is a random rune, it felt fine that Kayle got special random outcomes. Looking at it now though, Kayle getting 16 @ 15 can feel waaaay more powerful and waaaay more random than an Ezreal getting 2 gold bags and buying a Tear or Sheen early.

How about reworking or removing klepto?

I dont feel like it brings anything good to the game, you think its cool for champions like kennen as a lane bully to run it and then max their disengages and just farm you for gold to the point where even if you dont die to him you still lose because hes 1000 gold up on you?

Thats not even mentioning all the other klepto abusers, i think the rune has to go.

emarythomp22 votes

How about changing or removing the rune and replacing it with something healthier? RNG in league has never been a positive. Noone has ever said in league "I really like the RNG on 'X' and 'Y'" It's not healthy for a game like this. Maybe a little RNG, but not to the extent of klepto.

Especially when klepto is ONLY being used either by Ezreal, or ranged champions who want to abuse melee tops (and gp, but he plays like a ranged bully because of his q and e, but even then he'd prefer grasp as it does more damage). And that's not some hashinshin exaggeration literally everyone using klepto are those two categories. I never see kepto used by anyone going mid (except for leblanc occasionally) or jungle, or support (Except for sona situationally) or adc (Except for ez). At that point I'd change to make it more of a good pick for champions in general like you guys are trying to do with other runes.

Farm With Jayce1 votes

Respect to you for actually replying, many Rioters won't even give us a reason to why they nerf/buff things.

iiGazeii24 votes

Honestly, I think Kleptomancy needs a rework. It's only really great on champions that can abuse it, i.e., champions that have spells that also auto-attacks. It's mediocre on pretty much everybody else. It allows champions like Kayle and Ezreal who are supposed to have a weak early game to not only pad their health, mana, and vision control with the free items, but also use the free gold to accelerate themselves past their early game.

I think Kleptomancy should store the gold you get from it in a sort of investment. The proc itself it a lot easier (e.g., any auto-attack/spell, not spell-then-attack), but the gold gets put away. You can't touch it. After a specific time, you get all the gold that's stored up in one lump sum, plus interest.

This would allow Kleptomancy to do what it's supposed to do (give you extra gold for staying in combat with enemy champions) without the acceleration. You are still stuck in your weak early game, but when you crack open that Klepto gold, your mid/late game gets a huge boost.

Quepha2 votes

Every keystone is only really great on champions that can abuse it, that's a tautological point.

iiGazeii4 votes

{quoted}

Every keystone is only really great on champions that can abuse it, that's a tautological point.

I think we have a different definition of what it means to "abuse" a keystone.

What I'm saying is that some champions have a mechanical advantage when using Kleptomancy. When they can cast a spell that also counts as an auto-attack, they can proc it with less resources and commitment than other champions. They get around what is supposed to be a restriction on its use.

For comparison, Electrocute needs you to hit someone three times to get value. It's not restricted to champions that have specific three-hit abilities that can proc it instantly. Virtually any champion can use Electrocute. There are certainly those that use it better, but it's not useless without a specific mechanic that exploits how the ability is triggered. That is what I mean when I say "abuse".

Quepha1 votes

Some champions end a gapcloser with a stun, auto, auto reset to get electrocute, or most of their progress towards activating conqueror, in the blink of an eye while some just try to poke with a single ability once every few seconds and never want to blow enough abilities to proc electrocute except in emergencies.

Some fire off poke abilities with slows or roots that guarantee comet will land every time while others depend on autos and auto steroids with few abilities that can even proc comet.

Some champions have no disables in their kit at all and can't use aftershock while others have ways to guarantee a proc at the start of every trade.

Every champion goes for keystones that are easy to proc and work with their kit. When you use the word "abuse" you literally just mean "I don't like it," with nothing meaningful to add to the conversation.

iiGazeii3 votes

{quoted}

Some champions end a gapcloser with a stun, auto, auto reset to get electrocute, or most of their progress towards activating conqueror, in the blink of an eye while some just try to poke with a single ability once every few seconds and never want to blow enough abilities to proc electrocute except in emergencies.

Some fire off poke abilities with slows or roots that guarantee comet will land every time while others depend on autos and auto steroids with few abilities that can even proc comet.

Some champions have no disables in their kit at all and can't use aftershock while others have ways to guarantee a proc at the start of every trade.

Every champion goes for keystones that are easy to proc and work with their kit. When you use the word "abuse" you literally just mean "I don't like it," with nothing meaningful to add to the conversation.

I explained what I meant by "abuse". Don't put words in my mouth or put me down because you feel you are superior.

Quepha1 votes

You said "mechanical advantage" which applies to literally every keystone in the game. Your description was completely worthless, you fail to understand how my examples expose this, and you contribute nothing to the conversation.

iiGazeii4 votes

{quoted}

You said "mechanical advantage" which applies to literally every keystone in the game. Your description was completely worthless, you fail to understand how my examples expose this, and you contribute nothing to the conversation.

Kleptomancy users do have a mechanical advantage that is above and beyond how most champions use their keystones. Yes, a champion that is able to dump multiple cooldowns at once and proc Electrocute will use that keystone better than a champion that can't, but exploiting Kleptomancy with a spell-attack is different. It's taking advantage of how the keystone is used to circumvent what would normally be a restriction. Multi-hit or stacking keystones still require you to invest the resources, whether that's time, cooldowns, or energy/mana, to get their intended effect, but Kleptomancy users get around the normal requirement by bundling their attack together with the spell cast.

They aren't just better at proccing it than other champions, they proc it in a way that other champions can't. They aren't just doing it very fast or with better range than other champions, they're doing so without the restriction. That's why I put it a cut above normal use, and call it "abuse". They're abusing the fact that they can use the keystone far better than other champions, forcing the keystone to be balanced around them and making it even worse for everybody else.

Quepha1 votes

Keystones are supposed to be balanced around the champions that use it. Kleptomancy being more tied to its champions isn't bad in any way.

iiGazeii4 votes

{quoted}

Keystones are supposed to be balanced around the champions that use it. Kleptomancy being more tied to its champions isn't bad in any way.

It isn't bad for a keystone to be tied to its champions, but when its pool of regular users can be counted on one hand, it's time to think about reworking it to be more accessible.

SweedishGunner2 votes

If that happened Viktor could have his Q CD reverted and be playable again.

DeusVult14 votes

klepto simply shouldnt exist. If you see the way that it is used the majority of the time, IMO it doesnt bring healthy interactions to LoL.

Lane bullies (mostly ranged ones ie. Kennen Jayce etc) take it in matchups that they will already win, so by continuing their play patterns where they already win lane and poke, they get more gold than their opponent.

And its also used by champs with really weak early games who can proc it (again, from range) to circumvent their weak early games by getting more gold. IE Kayle Gangplank

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