conqueror is better on mages

kilyan mbardppe·Nov 29, 2019·4 votes·2,146 views

so precision is a tree that is supposed to be good for auto attackers right? well mages are taking this tree as a primary because conqueror is better on them than on bruisers. it gives adaptive force, which converts to 2 ap or 1.2 ad. at lvl 18 conqueror gives 50 adaptive force when at full stacks( 100 ap or 60 ad). that is a big big difference especially considering this is a rune made for bruisers, not mages. bruisers lost their only option against tanks with this conqueror rework and now, if they keep the adaptive force, in order to make it balanced for mages they need to make it trash for bruisers. remove the adaptive force and make it only give ad

24 Comments

Hemulen MagiNov 29, 20192 votes

I think precision is the tree that is supposed to be good for dps, not specifically autoattackers, even though those are often related. I think conqueror is supposed to be good for fighters (aka bruisers), which includes both AD and AP champions. Mordekaiser Rumble Diana Gragas Chogath Galio ap Shyvana ap Nasus etc.

I think Ryze Cassiopeia are not intended conqueror users though. As dps mages, they might make sense for press the attack to work for them or some other precision rune though. The trees aren't purely bound to classes/champions so much as playstyles/roles, though class/champion is usually related to that. For example, some marksmen have been known to use comet, dark harvest, or hail of blades at certain times, which is fine. A specific marksman might be more poke + ability-centered and less dps or autoattack centered, in which case they should be allowed to spec into a different tree than precision.

MortismoNov 29, 20191 votes

Ryze isnt even that good with conqueror compared to the mobility of phase rush

kilyan mbardppeNov 30, 20191 votes

trust me it is rly good. swain is also bonkers with it

NaughtyWordNov 29, 20192 votes

Bruisers are just buttmad that a couple of mages can make use of "their" rune.

It's not your rune, at no point did anyone of significance say it was a "bruiser" rune, and if someone else can make use of it, so be it. It is the exact same waffling I hear about item 3071 because all of 2 ADCs build it with any notable regularity Lucian MissFortune .

kilyan mbardppeNov 30, 20191 votes

im not saying other people cant use it, the problem is the precision tree itself is made for autoattackers. the problem is the concept of adaptive force always favors ap users. there are ap bruisers that use it on a healthy way because they need to get in melee range. however, since abilities give 2 stacks, champions like ryze, swain, cassio stack it giga fast and abuse it in a non-healthy way.

RagnaveilNov 30, 20191 votes

Conq's existence was for Bruisers in the first place. They had no keystone during the initial release of Runes Reforged. Hell, look back at what the balance team said when they were designing Conq: Giving Bruisers a rune since they were left with no real other options. Why wouldn't we get pissed about it? And just to make it equal they are making Fleet better for Melee. Like, who the fuck that is a bruiser wants to run fleet? Its a buff solely for the elephant in the room named Akali, who didnt get gutted despite being as popular as Aatrox in pro play, who got gutted for funzies pretty much.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 29, 20191 votes

so precision is a tree that is supposed to be good for auto attackers right?

I'm pretty sure Riot wanted it for sustained DPS.

If Ryze (as an example) is doing DPS, seems like he should be able to use the tree, no?

RagnaveilNov 29, 20191 votes

Sure, but not Conqueror.

ZephyrDrakeNov 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Sure, but not Conqueror.

Actually yes conqueror. The rune is designed for extended fights, the longer the fight the better. Every single dps champion should be able to use conqueror. They might have a better keystone but that doesn't mean that they can't use conqueror.

NaughtyWordNov 29, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Actually yes conqueror. The rune is designed for extended fights, the longer the fight the better. Every single dps champion should be able to use conqueror. They might have a better keystone but that doesn't mean that they can't use conqueror.

That and honestly how many mages can actually maximize this rune efficiently?

Only Cassiopeia Ryze and Karthus come to mind because they have a spammable ability. It'd be one thing if mages were dominating the charts with Conqueror but they aren't, hell it would be another thing if it were efficient on most mages, but it isn't.

NemeBroNov 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

That and honestly how many mages can actually maximize this rune efficiently?

Only and come to mind because they have a spammable ability. It'd be one thing if mages were dominating the charts with Conqueror but they aren't, hell it would be another thing if it were efficient on most mages, but it isn't.

Pretty much any DPS mage who can fairly easily proc it and benefit from the healing.

AurelionSol Cassiopeia Ryze Vladimir Heimerdinger Azir all see to get good use out of the room.

Not even saying it's really a problem per say, but it definitely seems to have some strong benefits on certain mages. Another big benefit it has that the bruisers using it don't is that these mages can usually opt into strong frontloaded pen options, namely item 3135

Bruisers only really get item 3071 and sometimes not even that depending on the bruiser, and as such don't get nearly as much healing out of conqueror as these mages do.

Only some skirmishers that use it can really get comparable healing, and their ability to attack is less reliable.

In theory anyway, I haven't personally used it or seen much of it yet.

kilyan mbardppeNov 30, 20191 votes

swain r, akali, katarina, azir,

NaughtyWordNov 30, 20192 votes

{quoted}

swain r, akali, katarina, azir,

Are Akali and Katarina mages?

I don't think so.

On probuilds, no one is building Conqueror on Swain. The favorite rune is Electrocute and Phase Rush.

https://www.probuilds.net/champions/details/50

This combined with including ap assassins as "mages" tells me you are purposefully trying to hype this up.

RagnaveilNov 30, 20191 votes

I mean, are they really AP Assassins? LB just feels like a glorified burst mage, yet is labeled "an assassin"

NaughtyWordNov 30, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I mean, are they really AP Assassins? LB just feels like a glorified burst mage, yet is labeled "an assassin"

You heard it here first folks, Katarina and Akali are not actually assassins, they are burst mages.

RagnaveilNov 30, 20191 votes

I mean, Gunblade feels like a glorified burst mage item. Just look at the base damage and AP scaling of the gun active. They aren't blowing their whole combo and retreating if it fails, they are blowing their whole combo then blowing it again. So I wouldn't say Burst mages, i'd say DPS fighters if we are going for a wrong yet somewhat accurate label. The only thing stopping them from being glorified burst mages is the fact they dont buy mana items (Lich Bane is iffy).

RagnaveilNov 30, 20191 votes

So, lets just give mages another rune, this one being designed SPECIFICALLY FOR BRUISERS. You know, the class that was left without a keystone on runes reforged initial release? But if Mages want Conq, then fine. Heres what their version will be:

Same AP coversion to AD (meaning only 30 AP not 60) Spells give one stack, Max 10 stacks. Grants increased mana regen and not 15% healing.

Done. Mages have been coddled and if people cant see that idk what else to say.

DuskDaUmbreonNov 30, 20191 votes

So...what other keystone are they supposed to use then? The only other one that could be feasibly viable on a mage of any kind would be Fleet Footwork, and I'm 99% sure Riot doesn't just want everyone who wants precision to run that.

kilyan mbardppeNov 30, 20191 votes

he can stack it faster than a bruiser because abilities give 2 stacks while staying at safer range.

IMelchorINov 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I'm pretty sure Riot wanted it for sustained DPS.

If Ryze (as an example) is doing DPS, seems like he should be able to use the tree, no?

why can a ranged champion still get two stacks per spell? they can stack it easier.

nerf the stacks on spells for ranged to 1. nerf the timer from 8 seconds for ranged to 4.

Drakath2002Nov 29, 20191 votes

Mages get more AP than Bruisers get AD, however because of Mages' current state of being overly fragile that every class short of Tank and Support (Obvious Exceptions Senna Pyke Sion ) can oneshot them faster than a Talon can score a Level 2 First Blood, Bruisers will actually last longer and get to use that 60 AD more than Mages can last to use that 100 AP

RyzeReworkNov 29, 20193 votes

Ehh a bruiser can also get kited up and down summoners rift by a mage with conquer

RagnaveilNov 29, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Mages' current state of being overly fragile

Im sorry, but I legit laughed when I read this (im not laughing at you, im laughing at the idea mages are fragile). They ain't fragile, hell, they are far from fragile right now.

Drakath2002Nov 30, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Mages' current state of being overly fragile

Im sorry, but I legit laughed when I read this (im not laughing at you, im laughing at the idea mages are fragile). They ain't fragile, hell, they are far from fragile right now.

it depends on which mage you look at, Battlemages are in a better state since their subclass identity is being the Mage's counterpart to the Fighter's Juggernaut, which you can see clearly from some (though not all) Battlemages such as Vladimir Swain thanks to sustain or Malzahar Anivia defensive passives

however thats just a part of a Subclass

the Mages of the other two Subclasses and Battlemages who dont have sustain or defensive passives are indeed fragile, and would pop against Bruisers, let alone Marksmen and Assassins, with their only defensive options to build range between bellow average to straight up noob trap

and this is coming from a Malzahar main, so im not speaking of Biased experience, as I play one of the less fragile mages, im speaking of things I witnessed happen to other mage players