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Veigar's Stun Can Have a Delay but...

ZerglingOne··173 votes·7,740 views

If it has a delay, its cast time needs to go away.

Currently it has a .5.25 second casting time. This is a cast time that veigar players have learned to work around. It's the same with his w. His w fall time isn't actually that long, but from cast confirmation to fall, it is extremely long. From cast confirmation to the 0 damage stun, it's a full 1 second.

Now, this isn't difficult to fix. Just remove the cast time entirely so he can cast it on the move and the cast time isn't added to the delay and instead of veigar's changes being an across the board nerf, you can actually claim you gave him something.

EDIT 3-3-15: ALRIGHT, Riot, when are you going to admit you made an absolutely massive mistake on this one? Veigar is down just above 40% win rate and is falling by the day. But yeah, these nerfs made so much sense on a rarely played immobile character who was sitting just under 50% win rate. Please revert until you can at least think of a better set of changes that aren't a straight up nerf.

Edit 3-4: VICTORY Veigar's E now stops dashes cold and the particle effects pop up at the beginning of his cast animation. Also fixed the cast times. Shorter than I thought, but still hurts him currently.

We did it boys and girls. I luff you all ^___^

63 Comments

Shinjusuke14 votes

I'm a full supporter of the Stunfield change (c'mon guys, anyone with working brains could've figured out that was going to get changed eventually), but also a full supporter of OP's idea.

Frankly, many old mages should have their cast times removed on some of their key skills.

kunkudunk1 votes

Agreed, the cast times are so large on some abilities that really don't need them.

Kobila20004 votes

I for one don't get the point of the cast time on Viktor's ult. It's like Riot saw that every single one of his spells is delayed and thought "you know what this kit is missing? More delay"

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

Nami has a delay on every single one of her skills and that's pretty much the only reason she's balanced. I think delays on spells have their place, depending on the skill and the kit as whole.

For Viktor, I don't really play him, so I can't say for sure. I'm just pointing out there might be a reason for it.

Kobila20001 votes

3 of her spells are delayed and that's because of the fact they're cc/utility. There is a huge difference between deadly utility like her Q or ult being delayed and pretty much everything in a mage's kit.

ModAcademy Kayn13 votes

Agreed. A technical 1.25 seconds to use it seems a bit too bad.

ZerglingOne20 votes

{quoted}

Agreed. A technical 1.25 seconds to use it seems a bit too bad.

At least without some kind of slow on the inside or any other CC anywhere else in his kit, yeah. So like, it would cause his E to come out .25 seconds slower, BUT, wouldn't cause him to stutter step, and would give the clarity they claim the ability needs (bs...Tibbers has no warning).

I think at some point they claimed turning his Q into a skill shot would be a buff because it could "kill 2 minions at once" well once 40% cdr and level 9 happens, it stops mattering because you can Q every minion in a wave anyway. His ult was straight nerfed. His W was nerfed by proxy because of E. His Q isn't guaranteed to hit anymore, another nerf, and a double nerf on top of needing to land his E. I don't know where they get off saying anywhere that it's a buff or a positive change.

I never recall hearing that Veigar is too strong. This is just stupid.

A Superb Villain31 votes

They removed a frustrating aspect of his kit, the instant stun. However, they neglected compensate him for that loss and the loss of Deathfire Grasp.

Raptamei10 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiH3Bq5E,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-02-23T06:22:25.371+0000)

They removed a frustrating aspect of his kit, the instant stun. However, they neglected compensate him for that loss and the loss of Deathfire Grasp.

There was plenty of counterplay. Just shut him down in lane, have your bruiser jump into his face so he has to waste the stun or die, etc.

People just refuse to acknowledge anything that isn't dodge-the-skillshot as counterplay so they whined and now Veigar is useless.

A Superb Villain10 votes

I never used the word counterplay in my statement. I said it was a frustrating aspect of his kit, not one without counterplay. Veigar has numerous weaknesses, but his stun was not one. A great Veigar always lands his stun when it matters most, and people find that aggravating. Was it fair? Most definitely; you stepped out of line and got caught, no one dived Veigar, no one built tenacity or magic resist.

It does not change the fact that people hated how it could set up a kill with little to no warning.

I love Veigar, I enjoy playing him, and I am terribly sad to see his stun take a turn for the worse. However, I would be perfectly fine with this if Riot just adjusted him to make up for that loss. With the PBE changes, Veigar is a better farmer... and that's it; his kill potential has been seriously hurt. I fully expect to see buffs, and I would not settle for less.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

Thank you for a great comment that actually zeroes in on the problem without being too salty about it. Too long I have seen people just complaining and bitching at Riot without actually explaining the problem. It just doesn't feel productive.

Anyways, I agree, his farming is stronger. I'm on the fence when it comes to more buffs being required, seeing as he tends to get more AP than before. The removal of his stun cast time could be a great place to help him out, and I suspect Riot will do that first before touching his numbers. For me, its a wait and see. He might turn out weaker on live (I feel like, as Veigar, I was getting more farm on PBE than I should have on Live) or not.

Auz the Ripper7 votes

No one whined about veigar Riot took it upon themselves to correct what perceived as a "counterplay" issue

Awoof6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OiH3Bq5E,comment-id=00010000000000000001,timestamp=2015-02-23T14:15:16.854+0000)

No one whined about veigar

Because he was barely played. They amitted years ago he had problems and literally said it's ok because he is unpopular.

LeeDark2 votes

That's among the many idiotic things they've said. He was unpopular because those problems weren't actually problems. He was unpopular because he was easy to shut down, despite having this supposedly amazing instant stun/delete combo. He was farm dependent and immobile, making him one of the favorite mid laners every jungler liked to see on the enemy team. The changes just made junglers who see Veigar on the enemy team even happier.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

So, having two nukes only dodgeable by Zhoynas or the sheild of Yasuo and Braum was not too strong? Not to mention the stun that made landing E way too easy.

And why do people think that this is all they're going to change? They may have more ideas to expand upon his E or other things. They may be wanting to take his buffs slow so they don't end up making a lane monster.

ZerglingOne19 votes

{quoted}

So, having two nukes only dodgeable by Zhoynas or the sheild of Yasuo and Braum was not too strong? Not to mention the stun that made landing E way too easy.

And why do people think that this is all they're going to change? They may have more ideas to expand upon his E or other things. They may be wanting to take his buffs slow so they don't end up making a lane monster.

You just proved you've literally never played Veigar.

And no, they weren't too strong since he can only ever kill 1 person reliably and then he's done.

Awoof6 votes

I have to admit, when I see late game Veigar R'ing a squishy and deleting him without doing anything else, because he happened to be in range, yeah, you can argue it's the squishy's fault for being out of position/on his own/whatever, but it does look rather ridiculous.

LeeDark5 votes

ADC's getting destroyed because they are out of position isn't ridiculous. It happens literally all the time in games where Veigar isn't even present. Yes, every moment of every day, somewhere, there is an ADC getting out of position and dying for it almost instantly.

They are also dying when they aren't out of position, come to think of it. Because Jarvan or Lee Sin took a 1200 distance gap closer to them and deleted them. But Veigar reliably punishing squishies who are out of position? OH FUCK NO WE CAN'T HAVE THAT.

Shaabanglyy1 votes

{quoted}

At least without some kind of slow on the inside or any other CC anywhere else in his kit, yeah. So like, it would cause his E to come out .25 seconds slower, BUT, wouldn't cause him to stutter step, and would give the clarity they claim the ability needs (bs...Tibbers has no warning).

I think at some point they claimed turning his Q into a skill shot would be a buff because it could "kill 2 minions at once" well once 40% cdr and level 9 happens, it stops mattering because you can Q every minion in a wave anyway. His ult was straight nerfed. His W was nerfed by proxy because of E. His Q isn't guaranteed to hit anymore, another nerf, and a double nerf on top of needing to land his E. I don't know where they get off saying anywhere that it's a buff or a positive change.

I never recall hearing that Veigar is too strong. This is just stupid.

Doesn't making Q a skill shot add the slight bonus of being able to fight better over walls and in brushes and jungle skirmishes etc?

Im not saying it makes up for it entirely, but its something, right?

ZerglingOne4 votes

Bump

NinjaFifer2 votes

Doesn't do anything bud. It's all about the upvotes.

Direwolfiez2 votes

It does if you sort threads by "recent", but other than that, yeah, it's useless.

Narog4 votes

well this is good idea but also i hope the veigar changers dont go live on the next patch ,there is need for more fixing.

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

Why don't they speed up his W? It was designed based on the stun right?

KING OF MASKS2 votes

Swain's Nevermove now has a one second delay!

...wait...

Ablogqwer2 votes

Why is riot trying to turn Veigar into a bad version of Malzahar? Is it because they're both blue and purple?

Seriously though riot, I don't care how much you enjoy your cool new mobility champs that are always stupidly overpowered on release, trying to change the game to make sure they dominate it is terrible.

Big Bang Bob2 votes

I don't play veigar, and that stun is super annoying.

Which is why I'm going to bump this. Annoying CC is the best kind CC, and I say this as a Rammus player (also I think riot did over shoot a bit).

fooledha2 votes

You ruined it with that delay, now veigar = fed enemy team

InsaneSamurai1 votes

I so thought you were gonna ask: what about Tibbers?

So, what about Tibbers? :)

Pitong Traceur3 votes

Yeah, every time when I play as Veigar vs Annie I think the same. It is "I stun her or she stun me" fight, except in teamfight if I didn't stop her, she almost wipes out my team, while I can nuke 1 guy. But hey, it is not fair, circle edge is SO DAMN EASIER TO HIT THAN FULL CIRCLE AREA. Yeah.

Flemman1 votes

hopefully she will be hit with the nerf bat too (add a cast time on her passive, so she doesn't sit on hit for 1/2 min?)

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

At least you know when her stun is up. There IS such a thing as good Annie's and bad Annie's, you know.

Flemman1 votes

Yeah a good annie will keep her stun up for tibbers a great amounth of time and land it on 3 or more poeple, a bad annie will keep her stun up for tibbers a great amounth of time and land it on 3 or more poeple, but it's not the same :p

My point was, by forcing support annie to use mana for keeping her stun up, you actualy create an opportunity for the ennemy team other than "wait till she decide to use it, even if it take 5 minute"

By letting the passive in this state, if they nerf her because she become a to much powerfull support, it will hurt mid annie too (and we all know support annie is pick for the stun, not for her ratio)

TonyTonyMordecai1 votes

Yeah, but a bad Annie will also waste her stun on a minion or completely whiff Tibbers.

But I do see what you mean with the "stun up time" problem.

Annie also has an easy learning curve, but then there is the high amount of skill one can achieve once they've covered the basics of Annie.

Plus, all her skills are shorter ranged than other mages, and she doesn't have any escapes. I think it's a pretty fair exchange, IMO

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

A good Annie will use her stun on only 1 or 2 people if her team can get a pick. A good Annie saves her last two spells, throws her Q then activates shield to hide her stun once the Q reaches its target. A good Annie roams mid (if support) and gets her stun ready on the way so she can snowball her midlane too. A good Annie is intimately familiar with both her flash range and her Tibbers range. A good Annie doesn't get caught out so she can save her Flash for those oh so sweet teamfight Tibbers initiates that you were just talking about.

I don't like the idea of decaying passive Annie. Its like if Sona's passive decayed. It just makes all the planning and reaction involved with playing Annie go away. Annie doesn't cast one spell to get her stun up, she casts FOUR. Five if you count the spell she must cast to proc the actual stun.

If you see support Annie walking towards you with her stun, blow her up. She is incredibly squishy and her range is as short as Ryze's (possibly shorter). Gank her lane a lot, make her blow her Flash on escape. She doesn't have peel besides her stun, and she's lucky to get it up twice a fight early game, especially pre-Tibbers. An Annie without Flash is a sad Annie.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

Tibbers is pretty short range (shorter, I believe, than Veigar's stun range). Its also not in and of itself a stun, Annie has to make sure her passive is up before diving in. Her passive could be blown early, not be ready yet, etc--its something you have to plan for. Combine all of this with the fact that Annie is incredibly squishy and does not have a gapcloser, and you at least have a skill that is usually telegraphed and can be played around. Annie pretty much requires Flash (or a Kalista ult maybe) to get the jump on her opponents. Its also her ult and not just a regular skill she can cast anytime, so it can afford to be a tad stronger than, say, Veigar's stun (one has an 80 second flat CD at rank 3 the other has a 16 second CD at rank 5...shorter currently on PBE)

As a support, Annie performs poorly against the likes of Leona, and can fair bad against Thresh or Blitz because of their superior lane engage and natural tankiness. A decent Braum and/or Caitlyn can also make bot lane hell for her. In mid, Annie is terrible against poke and has to be really careful around assassins because of her short range. Hence why you don't really see Annie mid all that often.

I feel like Annie is one of the few examples of a decently balanced champion. Yeah, her Tibbers can be annoying, it can be a game-changer, but there's also plenty of counter-play against her (squishy, short range, you can see when she has her stun). She's CAN change the game, but she's not a dealbreaker from champ select, especially in solo queue.

Kagan1 votes

They could leave the cast time there and reduce the delay instead, That way, you can still tell he's casting, and "react" accordingly (assuming you can react within a second)

Urdnot Entar1 votes

Basically, all cast times that are shorter than an actual channel (think Ezreal or Lux ults), should go away. I'm thinking the cutoff should be like < 1 second. They're just a giant pain that cause all kinds of bonkers interactions and behavior (so many wasted flashes).

Steinick1 votes

Riot plz.

ArkenStorm1 votes

unless they cahnged it to .5, its actually .75. .5 would be fine IMO

BetaDude401 votes

The cast time is separate from the actual delay. You select a location, Veigar walks up to it, and then he basically channels for half a second. The new delay on the stun means that now there's the cast time of 0.5 seconds plus the 0.75 second delay on the actual stun, totaling at 1.25 seconds until someone actually gets stunned.

This is exactly what the OP wants to prevent from happening.

ArkenStorm1 votes

oh i gotcha. my bad. yeah I do agree about removing the cast time, but I also think .5 second delay would be better, .75 is just barely too long.

chumbler1 votes

I will accept the Veigar changes only if any champion hit by his W just flat out dies.

I mean the changes would still be stupid as shit and not "put him in a more balanceable state" because Riot doesn't know what the fuck that phrase means, but it would at least be funny, and anyone who actually gets hit by a Veigar W now that he has no stun deserves it.

aaronconlin1 votes

I think they should compensate the delay by adding a slow inside the area of effect

ZerglingOne1 votes

Oh my good god the upvotes ;A;

I never expected this thread to explode like this. Well, the changes shipped guys. Let's see if we can keep this thread around and visible.

Pretty interested to see how hard his win rate tanks because of this. I feel like his win rate is based almost completely on his E's reliability and almost nothing else.

Saplingz1 votes

To be honest. I spent a lot of time testing him this morning. He seems to fit real well with everything being balanced except for his stun. Lets think of champions like Annie . Her, "warning" is that she has the white swirl around her when her stun is available. Veigar could stun at any time, but his was VERY difficult to land compared to other champions. It was a highly skill based ability.

Now ignoring the fact that they added an illustration on the map for his ability, would it not be smarter to simply increase his cast time instead? The surprise of Veigar was in his ability to land his stun instantly. If professionals can abuse this, it shouldn't make it right to nerf it to hell for the rest of the fanbase.

To summarize, all I'm saying is that if we have a positional requirement as opposed to a VERY obvious marker, it would require both the player and the defender to make much better positional choices.

That is all, Thank you! item 3070 Veigar item 3070

ZerglingOne1 votes

Bump

ZerglingOne1 votes

Update Bump.

Mouse5341 votes

Some corrections to this post

One other minor point - Veigar's E has a 0.25s cast time, same as all his other skills. not 0.5s. - meddler

Source: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Q6AojjfV-not-a-riot-bashing-post-why-was-veigar-changed-at-this-point-in-this-way?show=flat&comment=002d000400000009000000000000000000000000

That made the value exactly 1 second.

Currently on the PBE, they have the effect of casting it at the beginning of that .25 cast time on the PBE, making E activate at the value .75.

Source: http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/03/33-pbe-update.html

Just video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU3koHXOLm4

Not saying that this is the right way to go, just what they have up on the PBE.

ZerglingOne1 votes

Victory bump

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