Why can't their be a happy point between Unique and Not Super Complex

Etonio·Jun 30, 2015·22 votes·1,377 views

I mean, I know a lot of people are upset with most of the more recent champs being super confusing. I recognize they are unique, but honestly you can have a simple kit that is also unique and fun to play. My favorite example of this is Singed. He only has one passive and all his abilities make sense. He is super unique, fun to play, isn't oprressive, and because of his unique kit he is able to be played in multiple metas in many different ways. He has multiple build paths and multiple ways to play him. He can go AP or Tank. He can proxy or lane normally or even go in other lanes occassionally. Stonewall at one point thought he was a good jungler. I like him mid against certain lanes. He has clear and obvious weaknesses as well as counterplay. I think we need more champs like Singed, and less champions with 6 passives unlimited dashes, sheilds and cc.

25 Comments

JamareeJun 30, 201512 votes

You might like Tahm then.

EtonioJun 30, 20157 votes

{quoted}

You might like Tahm then.

I do. Tahm is the first champion in a while who has made sense to me after a quick read of his abilities besides bard. Edited for clarity of what I meant

Phoenix Kotori Jun 30, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I do. Tahm is the first champion who has made sense to me after a quick read of his abilities since like bard.

Bard was only 2 champions ago :p.

NoMonkuJul 1, 20155 votes

The problem with simple straight foward champions is that they aren't as easy to balance. Take XinZhao as an example. He is so straight forward that it is hard to balance him because he goes in and basically either you die or he dies. Whenever he starts becoming a thing (mainly overtime due to nerfs to the top meta junglers) he gets nerfed because if he is on the stronger side, he is too rewarding for how easy he is to play. LeeSin is someone who is more complex and has been nerfed repeatedly, but if you can play him well he is very rewarding.

Also unique doesn't always mean a good thing. Some champions who are simple and straight foward with unique skills/playstyles are Singed Mordekaiser Poppy . Singed is all about playing farmville and not actively engaging with your opponent unless you have an advantage, making playing against him very unfun. Morde's R is incredibly OP, making it so his early game laning is crap to compensate. His E makes him push into tower all day, making it easy to gank him. Poppy is so strong late game that RIOT has said they will nerf her immediately if anyone can figure out how to get her safely to late game.

I just feel that having more variable in the champions kit makes it easier for RIOT to buff/nerf them at an easier pace, instead of nerfing them to the point of garbage. Elise is a good example. She has so much in her kit that she got nerfed to the point of useless, but it took a LONG ass time because of how much she has.

SaiannaJul 1, 20152 votes

That's actually the other way around imo.

What's easier to balance: 4 numbers from 4 abilities or 9-10 numbers from 4 abilities?

Simple champions are easier to look at, check their problems and fix that. On other side if champion is over-complex, then nerfing 1 skill might actually break him OR make no difference at all. And then you'd have to fix broken champion. Alot more work than it should be.

KingsgraveJul 1, 20154 votes

{quoted}

That's actually the other way around imo.

What's easier to balance: 4 numbers from 4 abilities or 9-10 numbers from 4 abilities?

Simple champions are easier to look at, check their problems and fix that. On other side if champion is over-complex, then nerfing 1 skill might actually break him OR make no difference at all. And then you'd have to fix broken champion. Alot more work than it should be.

The less stuff they do the less levers you have to pull balance wise

badoogaJul 1, 20151 votes

The problem with easier champions is that changing 1/4 numbers is going to have a much bigger impact than changing 1/10 numbers, as it is a larger portion of their kit.

EtonioJul 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The problem with simple straight foward champions is that they aren't as easy to balance. Take as an example. He is so straight forward that it is hard to balance him because he goes in and basically either you die or he dies. Whenever he starts becoming a thing (mainly overtime due to nerfs to the top meta junglers) he gets nerfed because if he is on the stronger side, he is too rewarding for how easy he is to play. is someone who is more complex and has been nerfed repeatedly, but if you can play him well he is very rewarding.

Also unique doesn't always mean a good thing. Some champions who are simple and straight foward with unique skills/playstyles are . Singed is all about playing farmville and not actively engaging with your opponent unless you have an advantage, making playing against him very unfun. Morde's R is incredibly OP, making it so his early game laning is crap to compensate. His E makes him push into tower all day, making it easy to gank him. Poppy is so strong late game that RIOT has said they will nerf her immediately if anyone can figure out how to get her safely to late game.

I just feel that having more variable in the champions kit makes it easier for RIOT to buff/nerf them at an easier pace, instead of nerfing them to the point of garbage. is a good example. She has so much in her kit that she got nerfed to the point of useless, but it took a LONG ass time because of how much she has.

I think Elise is a very poor example. I understand your point and you might be right, that is a good point, but I am having trouble thinking of an example where one of these overloaded kits are in a good place. Like they are either garbage and nerfed to obscurity (Elise) or are resistent to any nerfs, (Thresh, Kalista). I can' think of a good example of your point. Also these overloaded champs are almost always op on release.

NoMonkuJul 2, 20151 votes

Well I didn't really give it much thought on a specific champion. I just used her as an example because she had a very overloaded kit and she got repeatedly nerfed over a few seasons until RIOT felt stepping on her AGAIN was too cruel. She has a lot of abilities which means a lot more variables that RIOT can work with to try and tune her to a point where she isn't a problem. I say RIOT went too far with her, but the fact that they had so much to work with means they had a lot more wiggle room to change a small portion of her kit without it impacting other portions of her kit.

Lil SoybeanJun 30, 20154 votes

That's exactly what Tahm is, isn't it? Very unique, adds a lot of depth to team gameplay, but it's mostly just based around his devour. (And his ulti.) So he's not super complicated either.

AbiwonKenabiJul 1, 20151 votes

I was thinking the same thing. Q is a ranged slow, Devour is very unique without being too complicated (eat allies to keep safe, eat enemies to CC), E is a shield that is unique but also straightforward. Auto 3 times passive makes Q stun and W able to eat enemies. R is a taxi system. It's all pretty straightforward. Sure, it has a little bit of nuance, but any good kit does, no matter how simple or complex.

I would argue Azir is simpler than people realize. There's no doubt that he has a high skill cap and takes more time than most to master, but he's centered around one mechanic: his soldiers. Summon soldier, move soldier, jump to soldier. The only sorta complex thing is his ult, and really you could describe it as similar to a Trist ult but is also a wall. Simple in concept, a little difficult to master.

TehNACHOJun 30, 20153 votes

Braum's pretty cool in that regard.

TotalJerkJun 30, 20152 votes

If you think any of the champions in this game are too complex, you've never played a fighting game.

Joe DreddJun 30, 20151 votes

because there's already more than 120 champions

NateKillerJun 30, 20151 votes

Nasus

KingsgraveJun 30, 20151 votes

I honestly can't think of a single LoL Champion that is actually that complex. Hard to pull off? Maybe, but not Complex.

All kit designs are pretty straight forward, even the Kalistas and the Azirs.

SaiannaJul 1, 20151 votes

That depends on invidual perspective.

Imo champions with overloaded kits like Yasuo or Kalista are by far more complex than old, simple champions like Fiora or Sivir.

KingsgraveJul 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

That depends on invidual perspective.

Imo champions with overloaded kits like Yasuo or Kalista are by far more complex than old, simple champions like Fiora or Sivir.

"overloaded"

Their kits wouldn't work without the passives dawg

Besides, neither is really that complex. This isn't even about perspective.

Yeah sure they are more complex than Fiora, but so is a piece of toast.

TurquoiseYoshiJun 30, 20151 votes

Kalista could have been an example of this, but then she got her W and E to give her too much stuff. Without her W and E, she's unique and not too powerful.

DanLikesBaconJul 1, 20151 votes

Skarner Malphite

DanofDemaciaJul 1, 20151 votes

Umm Lulu

magic poleJul 1, 20151 votes

might just be me since people love to complain about new champs, but I think Yasuo is quite unique and pretty simple. The ability descriptions are a bit wordy/lengthy, but once you know what they do, they are quite simple.

also, i don't find him toxic. when losing or dying to a Yasuo isn't frustrating bc it feels like you were outplayed imo. unless he is fed of course, but then someone was outplayed earlier in the game.

Left Hook LarryJul 1, 20151 votes

I think Braum was a perfect example of not too simple and not too overloaded

Only Play DariusJul 1, 20151 votes

RekSai

Also, Tahm seems like he's going to be hella fun. His gameplay is simple and solely revolves around eating people, yes you have to memorize the effects for whatever you eat but still the core theme is unique without being complex.