can you lower first turret bonus gold

IllegalBagel·Dec 28, 2016·49 votes·10,837 views

its too much lower it by half

140 Comments

RiotRiot SotereDec 28, 201643 votes

We've had a lot of conversations about this since the original implementation of the first turret bonus. There's always been a a slight feeling that the number is too high. But, we aren't convinced that lowering it makes for a better game.

At the current number, it creates interesting decisions for players. Do you stick around for longer and risk your life for the turret? Do you attempt to create more pressure in lane? It's possible we could retain the those questions with a lower number, but nothing about the decisions it's creating would make us want to change the bonus amount.

The other important question, that other posters already reflected on, is what is it doing to the game pacing? It is a snowball mechanic, and on the patch it was released we saw the expected increase of snowballing off of the first tower. However, the movement wasn't that large, and there was a general sentiment I'd heard and agreed with that the game wasn't snowbally enough at that point in time. Winning lane or early game contributions didn't hold enough weight.

I don't know that we're in a perfect state now for pacing. But we've had game states in the past that were much more snowbally by my personal feel. If we determine that pacing is an issue and the game gets too snowballed, I don't know that we would actually reduce the bonus gold here, and might instead use a different lever.

AhristocatsDec 28, 201667 votes

it doesn't do anything creative

it makes people ganking as 5 botlane, getting 2 kills+first tower+drake and auto-win the game how creative is this? The first team that did this Won the entire game

i call this bullshit, i love riot's point of view on bullshit

DeathBurstDec 28, 201615 votes

If they gank 5 bot, that means 3 people on your team free to do whatever they want on the rest of the map. I regularly get tower first blood in Toplane...

AhristocatsDec 28, 201623 votes

first blood tower in toplane against a tower that has damage reduction and 5 enemies hitting botlane tower after killing 2 people

seems legit

Judge StevenDec 28, 20165 votes

Jax

AhristocatsDec 28, 201615 votes

what am i supposed to understand with this? that around 8 min in the game jax can push faster than 5 people~~ and against a tower that has damage reduction?~~

5000000000000000Dec 28, 20161 votes

Tower loses damage reduction at 7 minutes, no?

BardcookieDec 28, 20164 votes

At 5 minutes actually.

5000000000000000Dec 28, 20162 votes

Why are people even complaining? Most people wouldn't even hit tower before 5 minutes, even if there wasn't the fortify passive.

AMYS GRAVEDec 28, 20163 votes

It used to be 7, and removing those resistances 2 minutes earlier means that turrets are weaker overall. Part of it is the perception that turrets are too weak overall.

Also If you get ganked early (even if you don't die you lose some lane pressure) the minions will push to turret and they will deal more chip damage to your tower contributing to losing it quicker making the 6-7-8 min clown fiesta bot ganks more productive because that turret is already weakened.

5000000000000000Dec 28, 20161 votes

Does fortify passive affect minion damage? I thought it only applied to champion damage.

AMYS GRAVEDec 28, 20164 votes

Yup, just checked to be sure. From the lol wiki -

FORTIFICATION

Unique Passive - Fortification: 50% damage reduction from all sources, this effect expires after 5 minutes. (Reduction applies before armor.) (Fortification’s damage reduction does not apply to bottom lane turrets.)

TurquoiseYoshiDec 28, 201619 votes

It's getting to the point where I regularly have to tell people that every outer tower's damage reduction falls off at 5 minutes, and so top and bot are equal at that point.

Does anyone ever listen? Apparently not.

AhristocatsDec 28, 20168 votes

it doesn't matter, there is no way that toplane can keep up with botlane pushing power when 5 or 4 people are hitting a tower

DeathBurstDec 28, 20167 votes

If they are 5v2 bot, you can be 3 against a single tower elsewhere, and they have to actually kill those 2 people bot... If you can't coordinate, don't blame the game...

AhristocatsDec 28, 201611 votes

3 against 5 people, you're still not getting it

{quoted}

and they have to actually kill those 2 people bot... If you can't coordinate, don't blame the game...

i forgot that not everyone is playing in diamond

Reaper SorakaDec 28, 20161 votes

I think mid and top turrets have a passive buff for the first 8-10 minutes, reducing the damage they take by like 50%.

Bot towers do not have that buff, so if they 5man bot, and your other 3 were coordinated enough to attack a tower, but not coordinated enough to help bot lane, you lose your tower, dragon, and you still didn't kill a mid or top tower.

5000000000000000Dec 29, 20163 votes

That's the Fortification "item" that outer towers have. It falls off at 5 minutes.

SnowplosionDec 28, 20162 votes

I've seen people manage to get two towers of that trade. Not sure how my top lane did that, but it happened.

AhristocatsDec 28, 20165 votes

alright? on one game out of a billion?

nice friend nice

VoidStaresBackDec 28, 201610 votes

One thing people seem to be forgetting in this whole "lolz bot lane tower doesn't have fortification"

Fortification goes off at five minutes into the game.

If you manage to die in bot lane before five minutes, and your other lanes have allowed their enemies to roam before five minutes, your team has done something wrong.

People need to stop blaming the tower fortification thing for their woes, I've only ever seen it matter in bot games because of how early it falls off.

AhristocatsDec 28, 20163 votes

again it doesn't matter, since 5 min in the game botlane tower will lose at least 25% of its hp, while toplane towers will remain at full HP

which again makes the game polarised around botlane since it's easier to take first blood tower there and therefore DIVE

VoidStaresBackDec 28, 20162 votes

If you're losing 25% tower HP by five misenut you've done something incredibly wrong or are playing a weak early game champion, in which case it's to be expected you'll lose lane but try to make up for it later.

RivuoDec 28, 20164 votes

{quoted}

If you manage to die in bot lane before five minutes, and your other lanes have allowed their enemies to roam before five minutes, your team has done something wrong.

I mean considering junglers are ganking bot before the bot lane hits level 2..............

ItsOrvalDec 28, 20162 votes

As a Top Lane main, good luck beating 5 people to getting first tower blood by yourself lol. If you are playing top, you should have teleported bot lane when they got ganked.

ForgiveColourDec 28, 20165 votes

Ugh it actually means your team is trash and didnt react

Ad Vitam AeternaDec 28, 20165 votes

This whole 4-5 man bot lane gank thing is legit bullshit. I play all day every day over a lot of accounts at different elos ranging from silver to high plat and it's rare as fuck for a 4 man gank bot. 95 percent of the time it's just the jungler ganking bot.

People need to quit using this rare as fuck scenario as though it happens every game.

EnloctDec 28, 20168 votes

It sure as fuck happens in all of my games. Currently Plat 2 for what its worth.

DarkRitualDec 28, 20167 votes

It's the same as the 5-man premade vs 5 solos argument that we had for DQ. Very rare, but negative bias made people forget the 99% of games it didn't happen in.

SmileInABoxDec 29, 20162 votes

I seriously get 4 man ganked at least once a game in bronze. It's not rare as fuck, and feels like shit.

Ad Vitam AeternaDec 29, 20162 votes

You're simply full of shit, which isn't surprising since you're in bronze elo. You are bad and blame your losses and bs excuses.

SmileInABoxDec 29, 20161 votes

Did I blame any losses on getting ganked? The fact you're bringing up elo just shows how full of shit you are. I've also got a boderline 60% winrate and I'm working my way out of Bronze, but I supppose that's beside the point to an ass like you ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Ad Vitam AeternaDec 30, 20161 votes

60 percent but you are only halfway through, as the games get harder the win rate will go down and you'll probably get stuck around B2 like you made last season. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence would know the claim that you get 4 man ganked bot every single game is bullshit. Bronze aren't even that coordinated or smart. In fact I've been spectating bronze matches every single night watching my friend trying to get out, and I see zero 4 man ganks bot, and she plays bot so it's a spot I watch.

"at least once a game in bronze," yet, out of the last 20 bronze games I watched I've seen it zero times.

SmileInABoxDec 30, 20161 votes

Good for you buddy. It's anecdotal evidence against anecdotal evidence, don't claim any sort of high ground. Also, you'd be surprised how coordinate some Bronze teams are. All it takes is one decent shot caller and most will just follow without real thought. Thanks for the positivity btw, but I'm pretty sure I'm getting outta bronze.

ArdentEyeDec 28, 20161 votes

[deleted]

AhristocatsDec 28, 20162 votes

yep, and if your team isn't garbage then you won because riot put the most snowballing mechanic in league of legends

why is it bad? because you're forced to do so, if you don't do what is listed above you will lose the game if the enemy team did it the entire game becomes polarised around botlane

ModAcademy KaynDec 28, 20162 votes

Just saying, but when Rioters try to post their view and communicate with the community, calling their views bullshit, instead of trying to bridge the difference in opinions, isn't the best way to make a healthy connection for both sides to talk.

I'm not saying you can't disagree, but being hostile never helped anyone.

Covert Ops GnarDec 28, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NujBcyZp,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-12-28T10:59:49.070+0000)

We've had a lot of conversations about this since the original implementation of the first turret bonus. There's always been a a slight feeling that the number is too high. But, we aren't convinced that lowering it makes for a better game.

At the current number, it creates interesting decisions for players. Do you stick around for longer and risk your life for the turret? Do you attempt to create more pressure in lane? It's possible we could retain the those questions with a lower number, but nothing about the decisions it's creating would make us want to change the bonus amount.

The other important question, that other posters already reflected on, is what is it doing to the game pacing? It is a snowball mechanic, and on the patch it was released we saw the expected increase of snowballing off of the first tower. However, the movement wasn't that large, and there was a general sentiment I'd heard and agreed with that the game wasn't snowbally enough at that point in time. Winning lane or early game contributions didn't hold enough weight.

I don't know that we're in a perfect state now for pacing. But we've had game states in the past that were much more snowbally by my personal feel. If we determine that pacing is an issue and the game gets too snowballed, I don't know that we would actually reduce the bonus gold here, and might instead use a different lever.

There is no 'risking your life' bullshit. What happens is (atleast in Plat1-D3) is a 4-5man rapefest at botlane that turns into a free drake and usually a midlane tower and a botlane tower. It's fucking stupid. Get rid of this shit, the whole game is unfun to play right now because there's 25-30 OP pick or bans in addition to broken itemization, broken class reworks, and paper meche useless towers. I can't continue playing if these things dont get fixed. Played since Season 1 and this shit is not fun nor competitive. Games are pretty much decided in champion select.

Caitlyn Jhin Caitlyn with Janna Thresh and Ahri Leblanc

DunkinNoobsDec 28, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Covert Ops Gnar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NujBcyZp,comment-id=0002000c,timestamp=2016-12-28T14:46:37.648+0000)

Get rid of this shit, the whole game is unfun to play right now because there's **25-30 OP pick or bans **

ROFL.

AirKingNeoDec 28, 20162 votes

25-30 is a bit exaggeration but I would say 15-20 loosely?

DunkinNoobsDec 28, 20161 votes

I can't even think of 6, let alone 20. The only "must pick" champ right now I can think of is Poppy because she fits well into basically into any team comp, wins most lanes, and doesn't take much skill to play at a competent level. All of the other top tier picks atm take a fair bit of skill to play, can be easily countered, or require teams to play around them for maximum effectiveness.

AirKingNeoDec 28, 20161 votes

Ok I'll name them. In order of recent to still not nerfed.

Rengar, Kha, Camile, Leblanc, Shyvana, Vi, Lee Sin, Shaco, Syndra, Viktor, Kennen, Jayce, Poppy, Rumble, Fiora, Yasuo, Gangplank, Karma

DunkinNoobsDec 28, 20161 votes

Half those champs aren't even ban-worthy, let alone pick or ban,

AirKingNeoDec 28, 20161 votes

Yes they are. Rengar 1 shot, kha 1 shot, camile's everything, leblanc 1 shot at level 3, shyvana's absurdness with dragons, Vi's constant disables + CotC, Lee Sin's ult, Shaco's AP ratios, Syndra's R = dead, viktor QE = dead, Kennen's great laning phase with great teamfight, Jayce's combo into dead without counterplay, Poppy's immortal tankiness, Rumble's manaless permapush, Fiora's percent health true damage, Yasuo's Q and base MS, GP's sit on a barrel spam Q, Karma's perma shield healing.

They've all been top tier for a while.

DunkinNoobsDec 28, 20161 votes

The very fact that your list is a bunch of assassins and doesn't have Poppy in it makes you have absolutely 0 credibility. Hell, your list doesn't have Ivern or Ryze in it either. Those are the most busted champs in all 3 roles and you don't ban any of them.

Chromatic EagleDec 28, 20165 votes

I'm not sure how much of an effect this has on bronze players, so I don't know how to articulate this, but, aren't you adding even more pressure to bot lanes?

It's already ganked by junglers, roaming mids, and teleporting tops.

It's nerve racking trying to not give up at least two kills.

It's already ganked for dragon control, and now it's a strong target for first blood gold.

Meanwhile, top is still an island, even with Rift Herald.