MasalarAug 12, 20151 votes

The thing about Veigar is his ult is "Do tons of unavoidable damage to a non-tank enemy. Do more if they have AP". Would he be better off if did Crazy (more than current) damage to ap users, but less to non-ap users? Drive home the "Anti-ap" aspect and lower "anti any squishy" aspect? So push more power into the enemy ap part, or make it do less if they have 0 ap? Would that be good or just unpleasant. Like, I want Tri-force, but they have Veigar. Drat. Would that be good or bad? Probably bad. Interesting though.

SwapShadowsAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The thing about Veigar is his ult is "Do tons of unavoidable damage to a non-tank enemy. Do more if they have AP". Would he be better off if did Crazy (more than current) damage to ap users, but less to non-ap users? Drive home the "Anti-ap" aspect and lower "anti any squishy" aspect? So push more power into the enemy ap part, or make it do less if they have 0 ap? Would that be good or just unpleasant. Like, I want Tri-force, but they have Veigar. Drat. Would that be good or bad? Probably bad. Interesting though.

Idk if that's a great idea, what if the ap midlaner is 0/10 but the ADC is 10/0 and veigar's ultimate does no damage to their ADC and he won't be able to just rely on Q and W because those can be blocked and dodged easily.

Curling VeigarAug 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So.. that E change is a direct buff, and .1 seconds off a delay can actually be the difference between a spell feeling undodgeable and unusable, as funny as it sounds.

The R changes seem like they may be a step in the right direction. Veigar's R is one of those things where you want to retain its identity as anti-caster anti-ap, but the way it expresses itself as those things is just "kill certain enemies instantly," which is somewhat lame. I wish there was some more way to optimize use of the spell that wasn't just click on a guy when they get in range, but I also think its reliability is really important to it, so I guess I'm torn.

For any Veigar players out there, are you guys more interested in being less of an anti-caster specialist if it meant you didn't feel so bad against others. My suspicion is that perhaps a large portion of Veigar players play him just to watch their ult literally 1-shot the enemy AP mid.

I'll chime in, as I played this champion to diamond and continue maining him up here so I'd say im somewhat credible.

Anyways, what I and a lot of other veigar players would like is you could remove the enemy AP scaling altogether and just increase his own ratio on his ult to be like 1.4-1.5 or something so it isn't overkill against mages but also better vs everyone overall. Perhaps you can increase its mana cost/cooldown as well a little bit.

Right now most of his power budget is in his W which outdamages his ult by only 180 damage if say they an enemy has an AD mid laner. This being said with the extra AP gained from his Q I'm having a lot of instances where my Q+W combo leaves an enemy about two auto attacks worth of HP left from full HP-- and I'm thinking, why would I want to ult someone that low on HP? Often times my Q+W ought right kills a squishy on its own and my ult flies in the air and hits nothing because the person I targeted already died and I wasted it. This being said, the increased AP ratio on ult (but removed enemy AP scaling) could help with dealing with carries that are hard to catch, like, say a Vayne with a QSS. She's not going to get hit by my W ever.

The change I mentioned earlier is what I'd like to see because it'd make him more overall reliable without being overkill versus certain guys.

And as for the stun change, I don't particularly care about it as later on I don't need it to gib people because I can just Q+R any squishy and they'll die instantly. But I'm not too sure if riot would be willing to take away his "antimage" identity, would you?

Spicy RiceAug 12, 20151 votes

How do you play him at diamond? Im having trouble getting him to work down here in silver

Mr PopoAug 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spicy Rice,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nbvshjbu,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2015-08-12T04:16:59.144+0000)

How do you play him at diamond? Im having trouble getting him to work down here in silver

Positioning is key. Also make sure you get good at farming two minions with one Q. Outside of that, my personal preferences are to run Flash/Teleport and CDR boots, and it seems to work out well.

junglerboy16Aug 12, 20151 votes

Ok, not really a veigar player, but what I always heard as the explanation for his R's enemy AP ratio was that it was a way to keep him from falling too far behind, but also a gate against Veigar if his opponent was far behind. If Veigar was behind, it supposedly allowed him more reliability to burst the enemy APC. If Veigar was ahead, instead of having a 3k damage ult on demand whenever he wanted, he was limited by how strong his opponent was and how much AP they had.

That could be really outdated of course, but it definitely makes sense. I can see them adjusting the base scaling and enemy scaling a bit (say 60% enemy AP 120% own AP) but flat out removing that mechanic while still giving him comparable damage from it would seem to leave him much more vulnerable to falling behind while also being much more oppressive if ahead. It basically seems like he would become even more snowbally than most late game hyper scaling champs.

Again, I'm just talking from general game knowledge, not a lot of direct Veigar experience, so please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Mr PopoAug 12, 20151 votes

First of all, thank you for responding to my thread!

{quoted}

So.. that E change is a direct buff, and .1 seconds off a delay can actually be the difference between a spell feeling undodgeable and unusable, as funny as it sounds.

That's a buff to that specific part, yeah, but my idea was to shift some power away from his pure AP-killing damage (that seems kind of inherently toxic to me) to the gate so that overall his power would remain the same. Would it truly be an undodgeable skill if it was lowered to a .4 delay, or even .45? Not being facetious, I'm actually curious if internal testing determined that.

The R changes seem like they may be a step in the right direction. Veigar's R is one of those things where you want to retain its identity as anti-caster anti-ap, but the way it expresses itself as those things is just "kill certain enemies instantly," which is somewhat lame. I wish there was some more way to optimize use of the spell that wasn't just click on a guy when they get in range, but I also think its reliability is really important to it, so I guess I'm torn.

For any Veigar players out there, are you guys more interested in being less of an anti-caster specialist if it meant you didn't feel so bad against others. My suspicion is that perhaps a large portion of Veigar players play him just to watch their ult literally 1-shot the enemy AP mid.

Most games with Veigar I actually don't end up ulting the AP mid. They're usually too far away. I do however get a lot of enjoyment by deciding other priority targets to ult - do I ult the support to get their repeated game-changing CC out of the way, do I ult the tank so their front lane can be dealt with more quickly, or do I save it for a squishier target? I like that decision I make, it's what keeps his ult from being boring to me.

That's my personal opinion, anyway.

CrettAug 12, 20151 votes

I don't think the ult should be anti mage at all, personally. Everyone should fear Veigar equally --- except maybe the tankiest of tanks

Vincent LuciusAug 12, 20151 votes

Oh, but when you're Veigar everyone is afraid if they aren't fed. But that little AP champ who dared to take the same damage source as you? They need to watch their back especially.

mi ramfanAug 12, 20152 votes

The problem with nerfing Veigar's enemy AP ratio is that it doesn't just nerf his matchup against Azir and Cass, it also hits him extremely hard in his matchup against APs who already do extremely well against him like LeBlanc and Ekko. In those two particular examples, Veigar has no way to stop them from jumping on top of him and instagibbing him; his entire counterplay is that if they go in they take 1/3 - 2/3 of their health immediately from his ultimate.

I'd be willing to accept an enemy AP ratio hit if he got something new to help him in those specific matchups. I don't really know what direction to go with that, but maybe consider expanding the Event Horizon stun to also affect blinks like LeBlanc W jump back and Ekko's dash autoattack. Or maybe raise his base HP (but adjust his HP/level to break even at level 18) so that he's bulkier early and isn't as easily one comboed by LB.

Any ideas?

Mr PopoAug 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=mi ramfan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nbvshjbu,comment-id=00030003,timestamp=2015-08-12T03:14:40.093+0000)

The problem with nerfing Veigar's enemy AP ratio is that it doesn't just nerf his matchup against Azir and Cass, it also hits him extremely hard in his matchup against APs who already do extremely well against him like LeBlanc and Ekko. In those two particular examples, Veigar has no way to stop them from jumping on top of him and instagibbing him; his entire counterplay is that if they go in they take 1/3 - 2/3 of their health immediately from his ultimate.

I'd be willing to accept an enemy AP ratio hit if he got something new to help him in those specific matchups. I don't really know what direction to go with that, but maybe consider expanding the Event Horizon stun to also affect blinks like LeBlanc W jump back and Ekko's dash autoattack. Or maybe raise his base HP (but adjust his HP/level to break even at level 18) so that he's bulkier early and isn't as easily one comboed by LB.

Any ideas?

That was one thing I was considering with the delay reduction, but if that's off the table, a little more health wouldn't hurt. Might hurt his identity as a squishy though.

CupcakeTrapAug 12, 20156 votes

{quoted}

For any Veigar players out there, are you guys more interested in being less of an anti-caster specialist if it meant you didn't feel so bad against others. My suspicion is that perhaps a large portion of Veigar players play him just to watch their ult literally 1-shot the enemy AP mid.

This thread might be relevant:

New Veigar makes me so sad

I do like the idea of Veigar being a Champion with a rough lanephase who, if he plays his evil cards right, gets to take gleeful vengeance upon his lanephase oppressor in the later phases of the match. But I don't think that aspect of him is in major need of either reinforcement or modification.

I wish there was some more way to optimize use of the spell that wasn't just click on a guy when they get in range

I mean, I don't think you need to be worrying about that too much. There's an entire class of Champions whose role in the match is to right-click on people when they get in range. I see Veigar as being more about positioning and strategizing than landing tons of skillshots with mad LCS reflexes. And it concerns me that sometimes Riot seems to treat mechanical skill and reflexes as the only legitimate forms of skill, or at least the most legitimate.

The heart of the problem with new Veigar is his stun.

Yes, his old stun was kind of stupid

Mr Popo · 2015-08-11T22:49:46.451Z

So, I think the Veigar changes made by the rework were overall positive. While I loved the previous instant stun cage, it was not the most healthy move in the game. And the tradeoffs Veigar received for nerfing it were actually quite nice, especially the significantly inceased range and extra farming on Q. His average win rate is stable and healthy, and I feel very effective playing him at a Diamond level. With that said, I think that his overall design can be made a lot better with some small changes. To sum up my complaints in one sentence: Veigar is too good against some champions and too weak against others. Against assassins and those with high mobility or burst, Veigar suffers. The increased safety on Q farming does not make up for the increased delay on E. Matchups against people like Katarina, Annie, and Talon are hell for him, and a lot of gank-heavy junglers can destroy him even if he plays the laning phase safe. On the other side of the coin, Veigar is simply too good against a lot less aggro AP champions, like Azir, Ziggs, and Cassiopeia, and it's mostly because of his ult. They can't bully him out of lane nearly as well, and they need to build AP to do their job well, so Veigar's ult ends up removing them from the game. Even high-mobility-high-burst champions like Leblanc suffer from this due to building mostly glass cannon. Considering it's a point-and-click, that's not quite fun or fair for either side. So, to even out these matches and create a healthier environment for both Veigar and his opponents, I propose these changes: Reduce the delay on Event Horizon from .5 to .4 A delay is necessary on Veigar's E - the insta-stun simply wasn't a fair mechanic for his opponents. However, the current gate just leaves him slightly too vulnerable against the aforementioned assassin/bursty types. I think reducing it to .4 would be make landing the E a good balance between Veigar's skill and his opponent's skill, whereas now it's tilted too far towards being based on his opponent's skill. Reduce the Enemy AP ratio on his ult from .8 to .5 There's no reason for a point-and-click burst move to have an additional .8 Enemy AP ratio tacked onto it. That's simply far too powerful against anyone that likes to build AP. Increase the Self AP ratio on his ult from 1.0 to 1.1 This is to make Veigar a little better against AD mid opponents, who are quite common these days, and to slightly even out the power drop he'll get against enemy AP opponents from the nerf suggested in step 2. I think those three changes together will allow Veigar to deal with mobility/assassin/bursty types if he's skilled enough (while leaving them as an overall weak matchup for him), while also not making Veigar such an oppressive matchup against certain AP changes. What do you guys think?

No, I didn't really like the old stun. I thought it was stupid to have a "cage" ability that functioned as some sort of weird circle-shaped (for lack of a better word) "skillshot". That was always lame: unfun for people who got insta-stunned, unfun for Veigar Summoners who lived or died based on how precisely they could line up the translucent circle with the enemy from a tilted perspective.

But as lame as the old stun was, it did tie his kit together. It was an ability with two major uses: locking down an enemy squishy for a mega-burst rotation, and stunning several lower-value enemy targets to help your team in a teamfight. It created some choices.

The new stun is somehow worse

The new stun…is a "stun" that only actually stuns people if the batteries on their mouse run out, or if they get distracted by a squirrel out their window and are thereby prevented from clicking in literally any direction after the obnoxious warning lights start flashing.

To me, new Veigar's gameplay feels terribly flat. There's no high-stakes kill-or-be-killed cat-and-mouse feeling. It's just like, "Okay. Throw my stun somewhere in the general vicinity of the enemy team. Lob some skillshots at people. Cool. I did some damage."

Veigar's stun needs something more interesting. Some new mechanic. I don't know. Something that can synergize with his other abilities to let him throw a full rotation if he does it right/the enemy does it wrong. Maybe landing a Q on an enemy inside the cage stuns them?

A remake informed by caricatures?

Bluntly, I feel like Veigar was remade by people who'd never really played Veigar. A lot of his new aspects seem like they have origins in popular caricatures of Veigar: "Veigar's a Champion who farms Q all game and if he farms his Q tons then he can like push a button and DELETE you." That's certainly not how I would have described him.

Context that makes (made) R interesting

Taking a step back: the old kit made R interesting in that you had to decide if you were, e.g., going to gamble on splitting R and DFG to maybe burst two targets, at the risk of getting none. Or if you were going to go all-in with a full EWQR rotation, or if you were going to use your E to stun a few low-value targets and help your team, while trusting on Q+R alone to burst a weakened (or glass cannon) enemy. And, of course, there was the positioning dance: if you get too close, the enemy team will pounce on you and eat you for lunch, but if you can catch their carry out of position without a defensive line, you can delete them with (seeming) ease.

That's what I miss. I don't even really care about power level: nobody who was playing Old Veigar was doing it for the mad MMR gainz, after all. I just kind of want some interesting gameplay back.

Burst or poke?

To address your question more directly: I don't like Veigar as a "poke mage". He's supposed to be the archetypal burst mage. Old Veigar, for all his flaws, did accomplish that: he had a gameplay style centered around burst. New Veigar is some kind of weird poke mage with a trivially simplistic "push R to deal tons of damage" burst ult.

Not trying to be melodramatic, but this post wouldn't be complete without adding that, despite having played thousands upon thousands of Veigar matches before the rework, I really dislike playing him now. Every now and then, I'll try a Veigar match. But it just feels so very flat. If I 100-0 someone, it feels like it happened because they're Wood Tier and walked into a stun wall for no reason. More often, he just plays like a generic mage now: poke some, do some damage with spells, die. It seems much harder to screw up, and much harder to do something remarkable. He has more raw power, but not much flexibility or nuance.

{quoted}

My suspicion is that perhaps a large portion of Veigar players play him just to watch their ult literally 1-shot the enemy AP mid.

While I really appreciate you soliciting Veigar feedback, this remark kind of leads me to think that you're a bit off in your estimation of what people like(d) about Veigar. Pushing R and insta-bursting an enemy is something that happens when you're stupidly fed and the match should have been over 20 minutes ago. That's not core to the Veigar gameplay experience.

It might be more accurate to say that one cool thing about Veigar was that, if you did everything just right, you could make it seem as though you were utterly overpowered and invincible, when in reality you know that if X Y Z hadn't each fallen into place, you'd have been blown to pieces before landing a single spell. He's a little fluffball trying to be a scary dark mage: in the same way, he was always a very weak Champion who had some ability to psych out his opponents.

WheatloafAug 12, 20151 votes

What if the delay indicator on his E didn't show the exact location of the walls...?

Rundus1Aug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So.. that E change is a direct buff, and .1 seconds off a delay can actually be the difference between a spell feeling undodgeable and unusable, as funny as it sounds.

The R changes seem like they may be a step in the right direction. Veigar's R is one of those things where you want to retain its identity as anti-caster anti-ap, but the way it expresses itself as those things is just "kill certain enemies instantly," which is somewhat lame. I wish there was some more way to optimize use of the spell that wasn't just click on a guy when they get in range, but I also think its reliability is really important to it, so I guess I'm torn.

For any Veigar players out there, are you guys more interested in being less of an anti-caster specialist if it meant you didn't feel so bad against others. My suspicion is that perhaps a large portion of Veigar players play him just to watch their ult literally 1-shot the enemy AP mid.

Your suspicions are actually quite correct in my case. Only play Veigar to keep that enemy Ahri down.

John BerserkAug 12, 20151 votes

His ult is literally a point-and-click, so there's not a lot of skill involved other than "get in range", so what if instead of directly nerfing it or something else, you just added an extra condition for it to do its full damage?

I was thinking something like, Veigar's Q, W, and/or E applying a mark on the target(s) they hit for a few seconds, and if Veigar ult's that target, THEN it will apply their AP scaling to the ult. Otherwise, it could just run off his own AP, maybe even a lower % of his own AP. That way, there actually is some counterplay to the insta-KO.

Mr PopoAug 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Noctes setcoN,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nbvshjbu,comment-id=00030006,timestamp=2015-08-12T05:25:42.311+0000)

His ult is literally a point-and-click, so there's not a lot of skill involved other than "get in range", so what if instead of directly nerfing it or something else, you just added an extra condition for it to do its full damage?

I was thinking something like, Veigar's Q, W, and/or E applying a mark on the target(s) they hit for a few seconds, and if Veigar ult's that target, THEN it will apply their AP scaling to the ult. Otherwise, it could just run off his own AP, maybe even a lower % of his own AP. That way, there actually is some counterplay to the insta-KO.

While not a bad idea in theory, Veigar has enough unreliability in his other abilities as it is. Having some stability in what his R does is fair, I think.

John BerserkAug 13, 20151 votes

I understand it would make his ult less reliable (hard to argue against the reliability of a point and click nuke).

I think though that adding some unreliability to his ult would better open up the possibility to more reliability/buffs elsewhere in his kit.

DrCyanideAug 12, 20153 votes

I don't feel like the extra 0.1 ratio against everyone would be noticeable enough to make me want to swap it. Right now, if there's a runaway Katarina on the other team, my only hope to do anything is if I can click on her with my Ultimate the nanosecond before I'm instantly deleted and hope that she's fed enough to instantly die from my Ultimate.

The 0.1 second speed up of Event Horizon doesn't seem super useful either. Honestly, what would be more useful is if once you started the spell it didn't disappear if you died before it finished setting up. Yes, I die, but if I've stunned or caged an enemy for my team to follow up it might be OK.

I definitely play Veigar to delete enemy carries, with my fallback pattern being CC bot for the team. Those are really the only two modes Veigar has, phasers set for stun or set to kill. Your Q range is a little too short to poke at a safe distance when multiple enemies are there, and poking with your W... if they're not stunned or minion blocked, forget it.

Maybe a faster W fall time would be an OK idea? I mean, Cho'gath's Rupture has a larger area, faster cast time, hard CC, soft CC, and the same AP ratio. Compared to that, is it really so crazy to shave 0.2 seconds off the fall time? It would make poking with W feel a little less futile, admittedly with the trade off that it takes less points in E to guarantee a W will hit.

CicoteAug 12, 20151 votes

I don't mind giving Veigar some more overall kill potential with his ult. Before Veigar's E recieved a delay it was on you to place it properly. It required your skill. However this stun was worth more than an entire support, and recieved necessary changes. However, the real problem with the new Veigar is that he relies too much on his opponent's mistakes (walking into the stun, staying with low life in lane when I'm about to hit six, junglers underestimating the burst, ...), instead of relying on the skill of the Veigar player. If the Event Horizon warning appears, an experienced enemy can either walk out of it before it even appeared or stay inside. That allows the enemy to avoid Veigar's burst (you can dodge Veigar's W inside the Event Horizon without getting stunned!).

A few proposals to give Veigar his identity as something scary back:

Put a Singularity inside his Event Horizon Inside every event horizon is a singularity with an immense gravitation. The whole thing is also called black hole. This gravitational force could be reflected by slowing every enemy inside his E. The slow could decay over time to enable some counterplay. But it would allow Veigar to have a chance to land his W, if used properly (with skill). An even more radical, but fun change, would be this. Slightly overpowered.
Speed Boost By giving Veigar an Righteous Glory like speed boost, Veigar would be in a better position to place his E properly, using skill. The speed boost effect could be something that procs after accumulating 100 stacks (I know you love stacks riot). Why stacks? It enables counter play in the time frame in which Veigar is vulnerable. Maybe even nerf him while not having 100 stacks, if the speed boost is too OP.

To conclude, these changes serve the sole purpose to give Veigar some skill reliant power instead of the opponent's-mistakes-power. Thank you for reading! summoner 31

IpolsAug 12, 20151 votes

I'm low elo and I just started playng veigar (But I'm playng him often) I like him because of:

-Very High Dmg (due to his Q) and the fact that his Q mechanic/mini-game makes it so you don't need to snowball to have high dmg. it's the opposite of snowball actually and I love it.

-Sill has utility for teamfights instead of beeing "i chose to kill you and then I'm useless"

-the feel of deleting an enemy with his Q+R

I don't play him do counter AP games, so the 2nd change would be good on him in my opinion, because if you are against veigar it can be annoyng to think: well ok I was losing, I bought somehow my Items and now I'll lose even more. it's sad.

anyway I hope people forget veigar so he doesn't become FotM and I can keep spamming him without feeling a sheep

DecritAug 12, 20151 votes

Many people already said relevant things, and i am here just to share one of my feels as a Veigar player:

Enemy ap scaling is bullshit. I never felt as an antimage as veigar, i recognize his role and character different from being a counterpick to mages and the enemy ap scaling is just something i came to accept, and i would prefer some other thing than a benefit for targeting mages, so i can shot more people efficently and making the game less decided by pick phase.

Sire HippingtonAug 12, 20151 votes

I'd really apreichiate a turn away from anticaster towards master of evil. I honestly see no thematic tieing to the anticaster thing, and if he is to much anti-caster, he becomes a hard-counter vs certain champs while feeling bad against most others, uch hardcounter situations are horrible, as the play-experience for one side always suffers alot, if you get hardcountered, it's not much fun(yeay, veigar found his R button again, time to get some more tea and wait a minute...), if you play a 'hardcounter' into champs that you don't counter, you feel kinda weak and usless.

Besides that, what Veigar needs the most is some changes to his W. Even befor the rework, people often complained about it, as it feels pretty bad unless you land hard cc first, it feels like it would make little difference if you remove that skill and add the damge to E...(well, it would actually be a buff) I think it would be great if his W was changed into either a bullseye(sora Q, xerath W) or a damage fall-off(pant Ult, hydra). You could leave the center damage nearly the same, with a lower aoe than on life, increasing the total aoe and/or lowering the delay. This would allow to use it without cc, but for less impact, while it still stays a high impact followup on cc.

LaceUp23Aug 12, 20151 votes

I would like to see his W changed :)

dr lichdeathAug 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So.. that E change is a direct buff, and .1 seconds off a delay can actually be the difference between a spell feeling undodgeable and unusable, as funny as it sounds.

The R changes seem like they may be a step in the right direction. Veigar's R is one of those things where you want to retain its identity as anti-caster anti-ap, but the way it expresses itself as those things is just "kill certain enemies instantly," which is somewhat lame. I wish there was some more way to optimize use of the spell that wasn't just click on a guy when they get in range, but I also think its reliability is really important to it, so I guess I'm torn.

For any Veigar players out there, are you guys more interested in being less of an anti-caster specialist if it meant you didn't feel so bad against others. My suspicion is that perhaps a large portion of Veigar players play him just to watch their ult literally 1-shot the enemy AP mid.

i do mostly enjoy seeing enemy ap mids getting crushed by my ult. So i am interested in keeping him as an anti caster specialist but he needs an extra protection against those nasty assassins and ad mids especially early game since he spends his mana extremely fast and his kit is about in the right place instead i would like to ask for something else.

Now we all know his passive his mana regen increases by 1.5% for every 1% of missing mana but the mana he gets....from where does it come? Obviously it comes from the atmosphere around him so why not add a little shield based on his missing mana too after all gathering all that mana together should disrupt a bit the surrounding reality right?

so my idea would be that based on the more mana he gathers from his surrounding(the less mana he has) he gets a shield this shield only blocks ad dmg this shield should be have a rather high base but low growth, im not sure about the numbers tough i would leave those to experienced rioters.

TheFirstGokunAug 12, 20151 votes

One of the cage's main problems is that it's designed like an ultimate anti mobility tool but is far more powerful against immobile targets. If you remember that thread with Garen that proposed changing his silence to a "Cripple" then you might have an idea of where I'm going with this.

Make Veigar's E Cripple all champions within the radius after a brief delay on cast, preventing champions inside from casting any movement abilities. After a longer delay, the walls come up and prevent any escape.

This change promotes more "Shit, I'm in the box, better start dodging" and less "Lol, nice try nerd, but I'm Nidalee" gameplay. You can't instantly stun, but you CAN instantly and reliably trap people.

AmazingGoatAug 12, 20151 votes

I had the exact same idea when reading this thread. This would be so awesome, but would probably never happen. It would be so cool to have a champion like Veigar who serves as a hard counter for super mobile AP assassins, but I don't think Riot likes hard counters.

Hard PenetratorAug 12, 20151 votes

I find W be more of a problem than any of his other skills. Early to mid it feels really good 1 point wonder that either help you soft minion wave for easy double stacks or finish enemy when your stun lands.

But in late game its garbage. Enemies have zhonias, Merc's, Mikael's Crucible, QSS/Mercurial. Tons of mobility with low cds. How you actually meant to use it? As a zoning tool? Poke? Without cc that either slow or stop enemies you have less and less chances to actually land any Dark Matters and often you can't use your E because if it fails you and your team might be toasted.

How many this type of skills are in the league? Ones that are impossible to land on moving target. There are few like morgana binding, brands pillar etc but generally you can somehow increase your chances by aiming it better or cutting distance between you and the enemies.

I just want Dark Matter to land faster the closer it is to Veigar. Often he will die anyway but might kill or almost kill enemy before going down.

Vincent LuciusAug 12, 2015

I like him as is and he's currently my favorite mid laner. Assassins are a pain, but it's quite literally their job to blow up squishes like Veigar and it's not impossible to play around that early game while we're both weak. I've had games where I can blow up an ADC who steps out of line with just my ult if I'm ahead, Although that was before the changes to the AP items which make it a bit harder to reach that 1k AP mark, but that's something that can be worked around with an infinitely scaling Q passive.

His ult is fine as is although his E feels a bit slow (a lot of the time it makes me learn just how slow a person's reaction time is before I can even think of trying to get them with it because if they're decent at reacting to my abilities it's just a waste of mana.), so if anything is changed it would be nice if it could be the E to make feel less like you're kicking a dodo every time you catch someone with it.

His ult, as it is, requires him to have a good amount of AP to really kill anyone even with it being point and click and it has the sort of range that requires Veigar to be close enough to be retaliated against. The changes listed by the OP would just be a nerf to him, making him only slightly better against people without AP and making people who are AP just as annoying to play against.

CrazedPorcupineAug 12, 20151 votes

I've actually picked veigar up since his changes, and overall, I feel like Veigar is in a really solid spot but there are a few things that are kinda keeping him down from being competitive as a mid laner, but the problems are also the same as nasus. Early pressure and bullying keep him down, which is a necessity, so I don't want that changed.

There are 2 things that I think would help veigar quite a bit.

W's Reliance on E. Right now it has a 1.2 second delay, that's .05 seconds shorter than his Rank 1 E. I'd be fine with a minor AP ratio nerf from 1.0 to .9 in return for a delay of 1 second instead of 1.2 This would allow veigar the ability to max his W second instead of his E.

Q's unreliability against stunned targets: Right now, if you stun someone and there are a ton of minions in the way, it becomes incredibly difficult to actually Q a stunned champion. I think 1 of either of these two changes might help: 1) When veigar's Q hits one edge of his E, the damage is dispersed along his E damaging all enemies on it's edge. HOWEVER any minions killed by this will not grant Veigar any AP (this is to prevent single Q 6 minion last hits) or 2) When Veigar's Q passes through the edge of Event Horizen, it gains infinite piercing until it hits the other edge of Event Horizon at which point it immediately vanishes. (This is to allow a veigar Q to actually pass through any minions in the way of his Q so he doesn't have to waste time on positioning to land his Q)

Can I get a Red to look at an idea for some modest Veigar changes (not a direct buff)?

45 Comments

Yes, his old stun was kind of stupid

The new stun is somehow worse

A remake informed by caricatures?

Context that makes (made) R interesting

Burst or poke?

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