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Can I get a Red to look at an idea for some modest Veigar changes (not a direct buff)?

Mr Popo·8/11/2015, 10:49:46 PM·14 votes·6,244 views

So, I think the Veigar changes made by the rework were overall positive. While I loved the previous instant stun cage, it was not the most healthy move in the game. And the tradeoffs Veigar received for nerfing it were actually quite nice, especially the significantly inceased range and extra farming on Q. His average win rate is stable and healthy, and I feel very effective playing him at a Diamond level. With that said, I think that his overall design can be made a lot better with some small changes. To sum up my complaints in one sentence:

Veigar is too good against some champions and too weak against others.

Against assassins and those with high mobility or burst, Veigar suffers. The increased safety on Q farming does not make up for the increased delay on E. Matchups against people like Katarina, Annie, and Talon are hell for him, and a lot of gank-heavy junglers can destroy him even if he plays the laning phase safe.

On the other side of the coin, Veigar is simply too good against a lot less aggro AP champions, like Azir, Ziggs, and Cassiopeia, and it's mostly because of his ult. They can't bully him out of lane nearly as well, and they need to build AP to do their job well, so Veigar's ult ends up removing them from the game. Even high-mobility-high-burst champions like Leblanc suffer from this due to building mostly glass cannon. Considering it's a point-and-click, that's not quite fun or fair for either side.

So, to even out these matches and create a healthier environment for both Veigar and his opponents, I propose these changes:

  1. Reduce the delay on Event Horizon from .5 to .4 A delay is necessary on Veigar's E - the insta-stun simply wasn't a fair mechanic for his opponents. However, the current gate just leaves him slightly too vulnerable against the aforementioned assassin/bursty types. I think reducing it to .4 would be make landing the E a good balance between Veigar's skill and his opponent's skill, whereas now it's tilted too far towards being based on his opponent's skill.

  2. Reduce the Enemy AP ratio on his ult from .8 to .5 There's no reason for a point-and-click burst move to have an additional .8 Enemy AP ratio tacked onto it. That's simply far too powerful against anyone that likes to build AP.

  3. Increase the Self AP ratio on his ult from 1.0 to 1.1 This is to make Veigar a little better against AD mid opponents, who are quite common these days, and to slightly even out the power drop he'll get against enemy AP opponents from the nerf suggested in step 2.

I think those three changes together will allow Veigar to deal with mobility/assassin/bursty types if he's skilled enough (while leaving them as an overall weak matchup for him), while also not making Veigar such an oppressive matchup against certain AP changes. What do you guys think?

45 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir8/12/2015, 2:32:14 AM14 votes

So.. that E change is a direct buff, and .1 seconds off a delay can actually be the difference between a spell feeling undodgeable and unusable, as funny as it sounds.

The R changes seem like they may be a step in the right direction. Veigar's R is one of those things where you want to retain its identity as anti-caster anti-ap, but the way it expresses itself as those things is just "kill certain enemies instantly," which is somewhat lame. I wish there was some more way to optimize use of the spell that wasn't just click on a guy when they get in range, but I also think its reliability is really important to it, so I guess I'm torn.

For any Veigar players out there, are you guys more interested in being less of an anti-caster specialist if it meant you didn't feel so bad against others. My suspicion is that perhaps a large portion of Veigar players play him just to watch their ult literally 1-shot the enemy AP mid.

Prospector Pete8/11/2015, 10:51:09 PM2 votes

Maybe not that much of a nerf to his ult but these changes sound good.

Iskedguwad8/11/2015, 11:44:10 PM1 votes

I've always felt uneasy about building too much AP as mid against Veigar because of that enemy ap ratio, too. I could do with that being reduced a bit.

SwapShadows8/12/2015, 2:40:49 AM1 votes

Veigar became so boring with the rework, his new kit requires you to farm for a long time and blocked out his old lane bully playstyle, all veigar mains would use their Q to poke and go in for a kill and roam instead of farming all day to become relevant.

They need to make his Q point and click, pretty hard to kill something when 4 champions and 6 minions are in the way.

His q being point and click gives him several advantages

  1. more kill reliability
  2. better laning phase
  3. better poke
  4. better roaming because no one likes roaming bot, getting a stun then having 3 minions in the way of the ADC
Mr Popo8/12/2015, 3:11:37 AM1 votes

And just to make things clear, I personally don't like Veigar's anti-mage identity. He's probably my favorite champion - I like the stacking, I like the gate, I like the high damage output, but the added damage to AP people is not that fun to me. If Riot were to do something as drastic as remove it entirely and put that power elsewhere, I would be perfectly fine with that.

SpecterVonBaren8/12/2015, 7:24:05 AM1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Popo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Nbvshjbu,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-08-11T22:49:46.451+0000)

  1. Reduce the Enemy AP ratio on his ult from .8 to .5 There's no reason for a point-and-click burst move to have an additional .8 Enemy AP ratio tacked onto it. That's simply far too powerful against anyone that likes to build AP.

  2. Increase the Self AP ratio on his ult from 1.0 to 1.1 This is to make Veigar a little better against AD mid opponents, who are quite common these days, and to slightly even out the power drop he'll get against enemy AP opponents from the nerf suggested in step 2.

WTF? That's not even close to a compensation, maybe if they gave back all .3 that they took from his ult when he was last tweaked it would be, but a measly .1 of your ap on his ult for losing .3 or you enemy's scaling is a horrible deal, especially when that ap scaling aspect is Veigar's safety net for if he gets squashed in lane because it allows his damage to still keep up a bit so he's not just a walking stun bot.

JedenVojak8/12/2015, 11:18:41 AM1 votes

I don't really think it's a good idea to make his ult do less damage.

Most ults in this game are not that great - Veigar's is one of the few which are, since he can just instasplode people.

TheJuzzo8/12/2015, 3:02:04 PM1 votes

OP does not speak for all Veigar players.

There are many ways to play the little guy. It is apparent to me that the OP plays him entirely unlike I do, as 2 of the 3 champs he listed as hard to play against I would not consider anything but equal (Talon and annie) and those he listed as easy im seeing the same. (Azir can destroy a Veigar, so can ziggs)

I like him the way he is, and win a LOT more than I lose with him.

If Riot is thinking of doing anything to him, I sure hope they do more research than what the small vocal group of posters on these (toxic ass) forums ask for.

Please leave Veigar alone. Try playing him different ways, he is a fun champ just the way he is.

LaceUp238/12/2015, 3:30:46 PM1 votes

I think the biggest problem in his kit is his W. It is honestly useless for the majority of the game. Makes it hard to balance him.

MarkedOfKane8/12/2015, 4:55:40 PM1 votes

I think he should keep his old Q or his old E. One or the other. You can stun someone instantly but you have to land that skillshot. Or you can miss your stun but at least you could still hit him with a Q.

Mr Popo8/12/2015, 6:28:28 PM1 votes

I can also agree that some changes to W could be cool, it's tied so inherently to his E. Not sure what those changes would have to be though.

Necroside8/18/2015, 1:40:16 PM1 votes

If they remove the AP scaling of the enemy champion from his ult to buff the Ratio but not do anything about his W's delay or even help out his stun delay then they honestly need to make it so his Q isn't limited to just 2 units. Make it so it can hit everything in it's path, you're already cutting his reliability to kill the enemy APC who if ahead can out damage Veigar because he'll be behind. It wouldn't be broken as his Q doesn't insta clear waves as fast as Viktor/Ziggs/Xerath and he won't be gaining any more AP than he normally would.

People need to realize "OMG I CAN HIT 2 MINIONS AT ONCE THAT MEAN I GET DOUBLE AP HURRRRRR" The ap gained from farming has been the same since before his minor rework, the difference made was wave clearing efficiency. It'll put him on par with other mid laner champions who can wave clear way more better than him in a siege "Oh but he has his W to wave clear" the delay again is too long to be considered a reliable way to wave clear and I rather use it as a zoning tool against the other mid laner who is trying to go aggro on me because we all know the Event Horizon isn't gonna scare them off that easily.

Xotraz le sage8/11/2015, 11:02:53 PM1 votes

He need a rework :D