J4 Jungle, Ganking a Heimerdinger

GigglingAngel·Feb 11, 2015·3 votes·843 views

I actually like it when J4 uses his ult on me. It makes things so simple! (Especially if I have Zhonya's.) xD It's really funny.

The majority of the time, even if I die (which is probably only half the time, depending on if my timing is on point or not with my stun), I still get two kills because J4 dies right after he traps me, himself, and his ally right in the middle of my turrets (which also effectively makes it rather easy for me to stun both him and his ally with my grenade).

16 Comments

Bears Dont CareFeb 11, 20152 votes

Um.. i just.smite.the turrets... If i sm facing a tryndamere i grab skirmishers. All around is chilling If its heimer i use trailblazer.

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Um.. i just.smite.the turrets... If i sm facing a tryndamere i grab skirmishers. All around is chilling If its heimer i use trailblazer.

Smiting will kill one turret, which he can easily put down another if he has a charge. If you use Smite on his Ulti Turret, then you just wasted your Smite, unless you take time to finish the Ulti turret off, which will cause you to take more damage than necessary. (Overall, if he uses his Ulti Turret, it's best to just back off for that 8 seconds it's up until it automatically shuts down. Then, if Heimer doesn't recall, jump back in.) No, the Smite should be used on Heimer so that he's debuffed/damaged. He's the one you need to shut down, and it needs to be done fast. Smite will help make that process as fast as possible. When you kill Heimer, you effectively kill his turrets, which shut down around 2 seconds after his death. And remember to actually finish off his turrets, or else Heimer has free turrets he doesn't need to put down when he comes back.

Bears Dont CareFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Smiting will kill one turret, which he can easily put down another if he has a charge. If you use Smite on his Ulti Turret, then you just wasted your Smite, unless you take time to finish the Ulti turret off, which will cause you to take more damage than necessary. (Overall, if he uses his Ulti Turret, it's best to just back off for that 8 seconds it's up until it automatically shuts down. Then, if Heimer doesn't recall, jump back in.) No, the Smite should be used on Heimer so that he's debuffed/damaged. He's the one you need to shut down, and it needs to be done fast. Smite will help make that process as fast as possible. When you kill Heimer, you effectively kill his turrets, which shut down around 2 seconds after his death. And remember to actually finish off his turrets, or else Heimer has free turrets he doesn't need to put down when he comes back.

Trailblazer smitr is an aoe. It kills all his nearby turrets. I dobt need to smite heimer. His damage stems frm his turrets and other abilities and he is immobile.

Ill.smite his turret and kill it with a single ability while attacking heimer.

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Trailblazer smitr is an aoe. It kills all his nearby turrets. I dobt need to smite heimer. His damage stems frm his turrets and other abilities and he is immobile.

Ill.smite his turret and kill it with a single ability while attacking heimer.

What if Trailblazer only gets one turret and doesn't reach the others? What if Heimer has them spread out? What's the range on Trailblazer?

DreadlocksFeb 11, 20151 votes

Teemo and Heimer are probably 2 champions I look at and say, Welp I'm not ganking that lane after lvl 6. and even before 6 i think twice about ganking a heimer lol

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Teemo and Heimer are probably 2 champions I look at and say, Welp I'm not ganking that lane after lvl 6. and even before 6 i think twice about ganking a heimer lol

Unless the lane opponent knows how to shut down Heimer's turrets effectively (or at least take out two of the three), the jungler is taking a huge risk if they decide to gank Heimer. Most of the time, it's just not worth it.

There are a rare few times that junglers can actually make use of his turrets. One in particular is Diana. She can target a turret with her Q, dash to it to finish it off, then dash to Heimer to effectively make him shit his pants if he doesn't have his grenade available.

Rustling BushFeb 11, 20151 votes

i dont bother ganking hermdinger, and if my team member doesn't feed him then we can so easily rlmao stop him mid/late game

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Summoner Grey,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MxEumlX3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-11T03:07:11.580+0000)

i dont bother ganking hermdinger, and if my team member doesn't feed him then we can so easily rlmao stop him mid/late game

For the mid-game, it really depends on Heimer's own team.
If they know how to play with Heimer and his turrets, then he's a wonderful asset. If they ignore him and his turrets and initiate teamfights away from his turrets that he just sat down to form a perimeter, then yes, he's screwed, along with the rest of his team who expects him to do much of anything at that point.

However, if the person who's laning against him does take care of his turrets and has a reasonable amount of HP, you really should think about helping him/her to finish Heimer off. Heimer is easily shut down in a gank when he doesn't have his turrets to back him up, but if he's given time to recover, all the work your ally did against him will probably lead to nothing.

PryotraFeb 11, 20151 votes

For a good heimer, this is true.

For a great heimer, he is an asset regardless, as he knows how to work with a team that doesn't understand heimer.

As for farming the turrets, it certainly helps. Thing is, you need to be mega agressive while heimer's turrets are down. Junglers help in this, but a good heimer will notice and back off. Heck, 9/10 times I know when a gank is about to happen because I see a sharp increase in focus on my turrets.

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

For a great heimer, he is an asset regardless, as he knows how to work with a team that doesn't understand heimer.

He'll be an asset with a severe decrease in power, still. Unless he has his ultimate ready, he won't be doing much in teamfights if his teammates are constantly moving the battles away from his turrets.

Looking back a few days ago, I remember a ranked match where my team was nothing but squishies, 3 being high-mobile assassins (this should already hint at how this is going to go). I would tell them time and time again that we can't afford to jump into their balanced team (with 2 tanks who knew how to position, and a Yasuo who's been on-point with his Windwalls), and we'd have to wait for them to come to us with my turrets to back us up.

The majority agree to this.

So I place 2 of my 3 turrets around the tower that the enemy is coming towards, saving 1 just in case of shenanigans, and wouldn't ya know it, they start jumping the enemy outside my turret range the moment the enemy does one bait. So what do I do with them moving around and making my turrets near useless? The only way I can contribute now is with my ulti. The ulti turret would do absolutely nothing with how they are going further and further away, so I'm left with my skill shots. However, I can't do that with the Yasuo until he's either stunned, away from the group, or busy doing his ult.
It's not long at all until someone gets knocked up and he started doing his ult, so I shoot out my ulti grenade, stunning/slowing the rest of the enemy team. I then put down my last turret away from my group so Yasuo can't use it to dash back to us. I fire my missiles, they are blocked by one of the tanks, and I'm forced to hobble back while everything is on cooldown.

"Quadra Kill!"

They were able to kill 3 of the enemy team, one tank, the jungler, and the adc. Yasuo's left alive, he gets the Quadra, and I'm forced to go back to the tower with my turrets. They reactivate. They die within a few seconds with nothing to protect them. My team is yelling at me for doing nothing, saying I ran from the teamfight.
The enemy takes the tower. They then easily take the inhib.
Enemy minions show up in the base soon after, guarded by Yasuo and the tank, The soonest spawn point at this time for my team is 28 seconds.
I have 1 turret and my other 2 skills. I put down my turret at the towers.
Yasuo begins attacking one of the towers. I throw my skills at him. He does Windwall, blocking the missiles/turret and later easily dodging the stun.
The tank has already dealt with my turret by the time Windwall is gone. While Yasuo's attacking the tower, I throw an AA to at least proc his shield. He and the tank ignore me as they move on to the 2nd tower. It's still 7 seconds until the soonest respawn.
They are almost done with the last tower, and my teammates spawns.
She runs up, I throw my grenade and missiles. I was far away to stay away from Yasuo insta-killing me, so the shot travels for too long, and it misses while he's dashing around. She gets stunned by the tank, dies. Their 2nd tank is up, has Teleport, uses it, and I now have my two skill shots available again. My 2nd teammate spawns but doesn't move at all from the base. The tower's dead.
They start focusing the nexus. My 3rd teammates spawns and runs out. 2nd teammate is still doing nothing. Yasuo dodges the skills thrown at him and kills the 3rd team member. He then focuses the nexus again. The 4th member spawns, and he stays still with the 2nd teammate. The enemy wins.

tl;dr It doesn't matter how great a Heimer is when his team is filled with lulz-worthy stupidity.

PryotraFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

tl;dr It doesn't matter how great a Heimer is when his team is filled with lulz-worthy stupidity.

Yeah, but that goes for just about anyone. All a great Heimer will do with a pants on head team will delay the inevitable.

That said, you had a few things you could have done differently. When my team has a tendancy to not fight in my turrets, I don't lay them all out. I might lay one down as a "know your way out" plan, and when the fight starts I'll run around to place turrets and attacking to select targets, throwing my other abilities as neccessary and orb walking to keep the enemy at bay while keeping the focus on those in range.

I would have tried to bait out Yas's windwall pre fight. You know that Poke stage? Yeah, good point to think about focusing some poke on yas to bait the wall. You could have used rockets to bait in the middle of the fight too, as the skill has such a long cd that you should have your rockets back before his sheild is off of cd.

Instead of your Ult nade, I would have used the ult rocket. Way more damage, and if you did hit the whole team you would have likely erased at least one and hurt the other two pretty significantly.

Also, If you got 3 assassins, I would not have picked Heimer. Kinda a no brainer, and if you were in draft first/second pick, that might have been something you wouldn't know about till too late. However, if you even had 2 already, I would have been extremely hesitant to choose Heimer, or if this was blinds I wouldn't have locked him.

Honestly, that game seems you were not only counter picked, but outplayed in general. It happens, but as Heimer you need to take cues from everyone's plays on both sides of the field and adapt yours to them. Heimer's greatest ability is his versatility, in that he has a really good tool for just about any situation. Not adapting constantly to everyone leads to great drop-offs in Heimers power.

For example, I noticed that you mentioned Yas in particular was dodging your skills more than he was blocking them. That means that you are being a bit too predictable with your abilities, and should definitely change both how you target and how often you use your abilities. One of the best things about Heimers rockets is that you can fan them a little and have SOME garunteed damage. After the first rocket, each following rocket does reduced damage, so hitting 3 for sure is way better than missing all 5. Using his dash so often means you can see just where he would be. I would have let him dash to me in order to land my nade with ease and then slam him with a rocket point blank. Yas can't take too much heat, and as a result will be erased/wounded badly. Under a tower/in turret nest this becomes lethal, leaving the tank to either push alone against Heimer (should be nigh on impossible unless its Galio) or leave.

tl;dr - You had things you could have done differently, and in that scenario I think the game was lost at champ select. Epic Bad teams do similar things to just about any champion played at the height of ability, and Heimer actually handles bad teammates better than most.

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but that goes for just about anyone. All a great Heimer will do with a pants on head team will delay the inevitable.

That said, you had a few things you could have done differently. When my team has a tendancy to not fight in my turrets, I don't lay them all out. I might lay one down as a "know your way out" plan, and when the fight starts I'll run around to place turrets and attacking to select targets, throwing my other abilities as neccessary and orb walking to keep the enemy at bay while keeping the focus on those in range.

Yasuo wasn't even half dead by the end of the fight, so if I laid down 1 turret at the tower and 2 at the fight instead of 1, I doubt it would have made much difference, except for the fact that it would be just another thing Yasuo could use to dash through.

I would have tried to bait out Yas's windwall pre fight. You know that Poke stage? Yeah, good point to think about focusing some poke on yas to bait the wall. You could have used rockets to bait in the middle of the fight too, as the skill has such a long cd that you should have your rockets back before his sheild is off of cd.

You act as if I didn't try to poke him (or the others, for that matter). I was throwing rockets whenever I could at reasonable points. Yasuo stayed behind his tanks, and they absorbed the vast majority of the damage, which is why one of them died during the fight. Other than my grenade, we only had 1 other person with a semi-reliable ranged stun. We didn't have much stun/CC power. Yasuo never used his Windwall for regular poke protection, instead saving it for blocking stuns that actually looked like they'd hit his team. The other champion on my team with the stun missed several times, badly. He didn't need the wall for him. He mostly used it against me, the only other time using it to block an ult and the mid's skill shots when I was around.

Instead of your Ult nade, I would have used the ult rocket. Way more damage, and if you did hit the whole team you would have likely erased at least one and hurt the other two pretty significantly.

As I said before, our team didn't have much stun/CC power. By the time I could throw it, they were all mostly pretty healthy and about to heavily hit against the ones Yasuo was ulting. My team really was only able to get 3 kills because the enemy was stunned/slowed long enough for them to get their own combos in. However, Yasuo was too fed by that time, killing people too fast, and he knew exactly how to avoid the skills that could hinder his insane movement.

Also, If you got 3 assassins, I would not have picked Heimer. Kinda a no brainer, and if you were in draft first/second pick, that might have been something you wouldn't know about till too late. However, if you even had 2 already, I would have been extremely hesitant to choose Heimer, or if this was blinds I wouldn't have locked him.

I was first pick, going Heimer top. I had no idea what others were going. I asked several times, and no one would communicate besides two people. One said they were going ADC Ezreal, and the other (the 2nd pick below me) said they wanted top as Fiora. When they saw Nasus and that I was going top Heimer to counter him, she still went Fiora Jungle since she auto-locked ...

Honestly, that game seems you were not only counter picked, but outplayed in general. It happens, but as Heimer you need to take cues from everyone's plays on both sides of the field and adapt yours to them. Heimer's greatest ability is his versatility, in that he has a really good tool for just about any situation. Not adapting constantly to everyone leads to great drop-offs in Heimers power.

No, the main problem was that there was no proper communication. When people did talk, they wouldn't actually do what they said they'd do, at all, besides twice when people were saying that they were getting red/blue buff. Knowing Heimer is versatile (as you pointed out, yourself), I thought he would be a decent first pick while being able to counter the enemy's first pick. However, people were either adamant about their roles they wanted (ADC Ezreal and Fiora Jungle) or didn't say anything during champ select (Support choosing Sona, who was the only other semi-reliable stun with her ulti, and Mid choosing Katarina).
We had too much AP, and the enemy build accordingly, with every one of the enemy building 2 MR items (all of them got Banshee's, at the very least). I suggested to Katarina that Abyssal Scepter would be best on her to help counter-balance some of their MR, and she said "okay". Later, I found she wanted to get Void Staff, instead, as her last item. So I tell everyone that I'll get an Abyssal Scepter to help with the enemy's MR, and told them that it'll have the most use if we use my turrets as a playing field. Like I said before, they agreed ... and my Abyssal Scepter did near nothing since they would not be anywhere near me.

For example, I noticed that you mentioned Yas in particular was dodging your skills more than he was blocking them. That means that you are being a bit too predictable with your abilities, and should definitely change both how you target and how often you use your abilities. One of the best things about Heimers rockets is that you can fan them a little and have SOME garunteed damage. After the first rocket, each following rocket does reduced damage, so hitting 3 for sure is way better than missing all 5. Using his dash so often means you can see just where he would be. I would have let him dash to me in order to land my nade with ease and then slam him with a rocket point blank. Yas can't take too much heat, and as a result will be erased/wounded badly. Under a tower/in turret nest this becomes lethal, leaving the tank to either push alone against Heimer (should be nigh on impossible unless its Galio) or leave.

Again, he knew to stay behind his tanks to have them block my missiles, and Heimer's grenade is one of the hardest stuns to land at range, especially to someone with high mobility like Yasuo. I know exactly how to aim my missiles, yet when the tanks know how to properly protect the area from enemy skills and the enemy squishies know to stay behind the tanks (until initiation, concerning the melee Wu Kong who'd knock up the enemies for Yasuo), then there's not much skills shots that stop at the first target will do. Yasuo did not focus me, never coming near me in teamfights unless he knew I didn't have any skills off cooldown. He told me so himself at the end of the game, saying he was most worried about my grenade + ulti rockets or Sona's stun. My team insisted on only initiating when they had minions around to help them, even after I said that they'd just give Yasuo more mobility and knock-up potential.
Yes, I did completely miss two missile skill shots throughout the whole game, once during laning and another time when attempting to poke in mid-game. Every other time, I was on point with doing the most damage I could in the situation.

Overall, the Fiora Jungle tried to shut down Yasuo early on and failed, epicly, instead feeding him and effectively shutting her down (taking both buffs) and feeding him enough to overpower Katarina. With the only other AD damage being Ezreal, we had nothing but AP, and the enemy took plenty of advantage with it. Even though I shut down Nasus during early game and won lane, others were asking for my help (mostly bot), so I'd Teleport to them and help ... and they'd recall, asking me to hold lane so they can heal and buy. Whenever I'd go mid, Yasuo would stay a fair distance away or recall altogether while the Wu Kong Jungle came to do his best to keep pressure on the lane.
All that time, Nasus stayed at top, free to farm and push lane. When he was close to reaching the tower, I told people I'd have to go back. As I was heading back, Nasus begins attackign the tower, and Fiora dives him. He runs, she follows, he withers her, he and his minions damage her, and she dies to him. By the time I get there, he's out of my reach and almost done with his recall. I shoot my missiles to try and stop him, and they miss (which is the first time I missed the missiles, which was during laning, as I mentioned before). I did more than double the damage to champions of anyone else on my team. And I focused mostly on doing as much CC as I could so the others could try to do the damage they should be doing.

tl;dr It was simply a hopeless team filled with people who didn't even think about trying to work with each other. I don't even think they knew what a team comp is, with the way they behaved.

PrinceOfStormsFeb 11, 20151 votes

If you use the Trailblazer smite it will kill all of his turrets, as purple smite is an AoE effect.

Plus purple smite can't be used on champions.

Ch0c0lateJesusFeb 11, 20153 votes

Any decent heimer player is going to spread out his turrets so they dont get nuked by a single AOE spell.

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you use the Trailblazer smite it will kill all of his turrets, as purple smite is an AoE effect.

Plus purple smite can't be used on champions.

Really? I haven't seen that done to my turrets yet. I'll have to look into it.