Boards›Gameplay

Coin and Spellthief's on Janna

Singing Lark··16 votes·4,064 views

I fee like this has always been an ongoing argument of whether to take coin or spellthief's on Janna. I personally preferred spellthief's because of the AP and the better gold income, but with the recent buffs to coin that are hitting the PBE, and this is if these buffs happen, I think coin might actually be just as good as spellthief's now.

To start with, here's some math:

1 minion wave = 6 minions Every 3rd minion wave = 7 minions

1 minion wave per 30 seconds.

For coin: 123 = 36 gold per minute 57 gold per 1.5 min Upgrade to medallion: 124 = 48 + 12 (2 per 10) = 60 gold per minute 68 +18 = 86 gold per 1.5

Spellthief's: 1 charge per 10 seconds - store up to three 2 per 10

42 gold per minute 63 gold per 1.5 minutes

Upgrade to Frostfang: 72 gold per minute 108 gold per 1.5

As you can see, Spellthief's does net you more gold, but that is only if you get every single proc of the passive. And for a support like Janna, unless you're really dominating lane, I feel like you are going to miss a few procs and so the gold difference may end up being not as big. (Coin buff would give you 11 more gold every 1.5 minutes than before. While you might miss a few minions in lane, the difference shouldn't be as big, I think.)

But this is all very situational so that being said, let's look at the pros and cons of both items disregarding the lane matchup.

Coin and Spellthief's both have 25% mana regen. Spellthief's, however, grants you the extra gold per 10 that coin does not offer until Medallion. Spellthief's also gives 5 ap (which is minimal, but everything counts early game) and it's passive does extra damage per proc.

Coin upgrades to Medallion which, with the buffs, will give you 50% mana regen, 25% health regen, 10 ms and gold per 10. Frostfang gives 5 more ap and 50% mana regen. The passive does 5 more damage than spellthief's when proc'ed. As Janna, I'm not sure you really need that health regen and the ms is nice, but not really needed either (though it does synergize well with her because of her w). Minion deaths will give you extra health (60 per minion wave upped from 30) which is a plus for healing back minimal amounts of poke.

What I do really want to talk about is the final upgrade.

Frost Queen's Claim, as I've found, is rarely a prioritized item. I build it if I have extra money and want some ap for my shield. It has a nice active, an 80% slow for 2 seconds + some damage, but I personally am not a huge fan of it. The projectile too slow and I find it's effects not as satisfying as I want them to be. It doesn't give any more mana regen than Frostfang and the passive damage of tribute stays the same, so there's really not much of a reason to upgrade this item unless I really need it.

Tailsman grants much more regen, both 100% health and mana and +20 ms. Janna already has a built in MS steroid with her w, so I actually think this extra MS synergizes pretty well with her. She doesn't need it, but I think it's very much a plus for her. The biggest thing though is the fact that the active is now up every 40 seconds for a 40% MS buff to all nearby allies, as opposed to an AoE skillshot slow for 2 seconds which is only up ever 60 seconds. Tailsman has always had the better active for Janna, but spellthief's was a much better gold income item and it was somewhat inefficient to sell spellthief's to buy tailsman.

Spellthief's was always the more aggressive support item because you do more damage poking and you gain gold that way. Coin was for more passive supports, but it was a really weak gold gen item. But now with the mana regen buffs and the buffs on Coin's gold gen, for a support like Janna where you can poke but also sit back and let your adc farm, could coin be a "better" start now?

So, after all this, opinions? New coin or spellthief's?

Applause to anyone who survived my long rambling mess.

36 Comments

Ghiefelstein11 votes

I do not have a single gold item I use on Janna (or any champion) every game. Instead I decide during the loading screen what the best choice is for that game. I consider the lane matchup and the actives in the teamfight stage.

Reasons to go with spellthief's:

  • I want to poke the enemy out of lane (laning with someone like Cait, enemy lacks sustain, poke is needed to prevent all-ins).
  • The enemy has champions who are very vulnerable to kiting, so the Frost Queen's claim is extra effective.
  • I see a reliable way to proc spellthief's often, so it gives more gold.

Reasons to go with coin:

  • I want to sit back and let my adc farm.
  • My team would greatly benefit from a speed boost (for example our initiation is just running at them).
  • I see no reliable way to proc spellthief's often, so coin gives more gold.

With these buffs to coin I will probably go for coin more often, but it will still be a choice from game to game. Janna can use both items well so it depends more on your playstyle for a particular game.

Singing Lark2 votes

I agree 100% that which item to take really depends on the matchup. I tend to find it somewhat frustrating though when I think the lane will go one way and end of the other way because of skill differences, etc. I think coin is always the safer item to go, especially when I don't know how good my ADC is, but I personally like Spellthief's in a good matchup because I like playing pretty aggro Janna.

Ghiefelstein2 votes

Coin is definitely safer, giving you a reliable income and sustain. It also makes it much harder to play aggro and win your lane. Unfortunately you can't always predict how the lane will go. In those cases it sucks you have to decide at the start of the game.

My personal preference is with coin on Janna, because it fits my playstyle more. I pick Janna to survive the laning phase and get farm on my ADC. The mid to late game is my time to shine. That playstyle gets buffed now, but that doesn't make aggro Janna with Spellthief's suddenly unviable.

Lauricella34 votes

coin = talisman talisman = movespeed movespeed + janna = op item 3069item 3274 item 3504 item 3285 item 3100item 3041

yes i know it's a horrible build but i gotta go fast.

cshakes1 votes

I kind of want to insert a Deathcap or a Twin Shadows into your build. MS bonus given by 20 stack Mejai's: (0.02×180)% = 3.6% MS bonus given by Twin Shadows: 6% + (0.02×80)% = 7.6% (I think that's how the MS bonus from Janna's W passive works. Wiki says +2% AP.)

A slightly more valid AP Janna support build would be item 3069 item 2049 item 3041 item 3023 item 3089 item 3060 for a total of 572 AP, meaning that your ADC receives 50 + 0.1×572 AD with every shield you give. That's 107 extra AD. Behold the power of the assassin Graves.

Hyrum Graff2 votes

{quoted}

coin = talisman talisman = movespeed movespeed + janna = op item 3069item 3274 item 3504 item 3285 item 3100item 3041

yes i know it's a horrible build but i gotta go fast.

My two preferred janna builds are the following:

  1. Full MS Janna (catch someone separated from their team and run them down). Also for cleaning up after teamfights. Also for running away after you take an objective. item 3069 item 3281 item 3285 item 3504 item 3023 item 2045 with 9-0-21 masteries for 40% cdr. Runes are armor reds, scaling HP yellows, scaling MR blues, and MS quints. It's almost as fast as with mobis, includes a sightstone, and the captain enchant plus Janna's passive means your whole team will move super fast. Great when paired with Sivir.

  2. Full AP janna (primarily for teamfights). item 3069 item 3281 item 3041 item 3504item 3157 item 3089 with 0-9-21 masteries for 40% cdr at 20 stacks. Runes are scaling AP reds, scaling AP blues, scaling HP yellows, AP quints. Many of the same benefits as the previous build, but not quite as fast, but with much bigger shields.

Hupsis3 votes

As a support player myself I feel like these buffs to coin and medallion are reasonable. I usually play poke supports and never buy coin even though sometimes I'd like to now that the talisman active is up even more often. +60 passive healing per minion wave sounds pretty good :)

I rarely upgrade frostfang to FQC cause the active isn't good in every situation. Talisman however sound very useful with only 40 sec cooldown.

Singing Lark2 votes

I think the interesting thing is that buffing Coin and Tailsman is that it actually made them 10x better as support items for Soraka in particular because everything about it synergizes so well with her. The health regen helps her stay healthy while she heals everyone else. The mana regen is a plus so she doesn't go OoM. The extra healing per minion makes is even stronger on her. And the active allows for her to heal up front line in teamfights with her own passive and then get safely out with the Tailsman active which is now up more often.

I might end up playing her a bit more.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Soraka is a slightly different case, though, since her rework pretty much mandates that you poke the enemy with Q frequently, which would make a case for the Spellthief line.

Personally I get Coin/talisman on her because she has 0 mobility without the active, but that's just me.

Singing Lark1 votes

I've only played a few games as Soraka, so don't take my word for this, but from what I've experienced, you really only poke with your Q when you need the health back. If you play to proc spellthief's you go OoM really quickly. Not to mention, her Q is a skillshot that is slower the further away it's casted from her, which means at max range, it's not easy to land a Q. If you get too close though, you could get poked down.

But, taking coin for raka was more because FQC wasn't an item that worked very well for her.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Ah. Personally I play a more aggressive lane with her, lot of trading pokes which means a lot of healing. That and a solid FQC active hit makes it easier to immobilize them with E or land a Q or, to some extent, self-peel.

Also, landing Q is hella easy, just wait to hit the enemy as they're standing in their own minion wave, makes it orders of magnitude harder for them to dodge when their own minions cockblock them.

Singing Lark2 votes

Haha. Minions are da real MVP.

TheKaymon1 votes

You can also try to hit them with Q when they stop to last hit.

Partholonian1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darien Juranas,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=McXUGXad,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-17T16:49:27.647+0000)

Soraka is a slightly different case, though, since her rework pretty much mandates that you poke the enemy with Q frequently, which would make a case for the Spellthief line.

I'd say just the opposite: her rework mandates that you have health regen, so that you don't die if the enemy jukes too many Qs. And you can't spam that many without going OOM anyway. Which is why I usually take coin on her now, making the changes a buff to the champion as well as the item (for me).

Pikmints3 votes

As a Janna main, I will contribute to this conversation with gusto. Note: I will refer to all items in their respective lines with Coin and Spellthief's.

I feel as though Janna is a champ that synergizes better with the Coin line than the Spellthief's line. You already discussed the close call on how much gold you earn, but with Coin being a much safer way to earn it. The 5 AP you get from Spellthief's is practically negligible early on, increasing the effectiveness of your spells by 1 or 2. In their final stages, Talisman beats or ties Spellthief's in terms of sustain, an important trait for utility supports. If Janna were a more aggressive support like Karma, Sona, or Morgana, I feel like the power from Spellthief's would be much more of a factor in lane, but if the enemy support is aggressive and also takes Spellthief's, Janna will usually end up taking more damage than her opponent unless you shield yourself and double down on your early mana expenditures.

Then there are the actives, while both are able to be used well regardless of who buys them, some champs synergize better with others. Sona can use Spellthief's to prep her ult, Morgana can use it to help hit her snare or slow a group for her ult, but all Janna could use it for would be enhancing her already strong peel. Then there's Coin's active which amplifies the bonus movement speed that Janna gets from her W, and provides a minor amplification to any allies that were enhanced via her passive. So while both can be universally useful, Coin synergizes better with her kit.

Then there's my personal Janna strategy. I don't pick Janna so that I can bully the enemy into winning the laning phase or dealing damage, I pick her for her utility. If I wanted to win the laning phase, there are champs that can take more advantage of what Spellthief's has to offer and can control the laning phase more than Janna. She has naturally good utility with her peel, teamfight based heal, shield + steroid, so building AP on her only slightly increases the damage she will deal in exchange for the survivability and utility that she would provide by being able to live longer.

This all being said, I feel as though I should explain my standard build as Janna as I like being more of a universal enhancer rather than a threat. Sightstone, Coin, Merc Treads, Ardent Censer, 2 utility/defense items. The Merc Treads allow me to use my spells as frequently as I like, only being exchanged for Ninja Tabi if the enemy team has negligible AP (as in their only AP is from their non-carry support). Censer removes all worries about mana from my playstyle, gives all 4 of my allies an attack speed boost (and soon flat damage) which also turns her shield into a major boost for AD carries. If nobody on my team gets an Aegis item, I'll get Banner of command if the enemy team is heavily AP, otherwise I'll get Locket. If anyone on their team becomes a one man death machine, either GA or Randuins will be bought. If I'm feeling confident, the mobility and utility from Twin Shadows makes objective securing easy. If our team is mostly AD I'll consider getting a Zeke's Herald really late into the game.

Partholonian2 votes

I feel like Janna has always been a pretty bad spellthief user, not like Karma, Morgana or Lulu who can rely on getting most or all of the potential procs (or Sona, who can get the procs if she doesn't die trying). What are you going to do, poke with Q and put it on cooldown (if you even hit)?

Buffing the marksman and letting them trade doesn't proc spellthief for Janna any more than it does for Nami. And Janna doesn't have anything like Nami W to make up for it.

If it wasn't intended that coin has a poor early game in exchange for having the best active at top tier, though, which the PBE changes seem to indicate it wasn't... then FQC needs buffs too. Riot clearly doesn't like the "start spellthief, then sell it for talisman" strat (let alone allowing it to become a meta for non-tank supports), nor do I, but in addition to coin being more viable early, spellthief needs to go somewhere that is worth going, otherwise anyone who does still start spellthief is still going to be tempted to switch midgame.

P.S. Coin Thresh will benefit too. As a ranged champ he was clearly never intended to use relic (burning flay to last hit notwithstanding -- it's really intended for harass), and he would actually benefit pretty decently from all of coin's stats, but if it's just too weak to take, then he'll take something else. Possibly also Blitz, although as a melee he is a bit more legit as a relic user, he is pretty mana hungry and loves movespeed, so coin could be a good possibility too.

Singing Lark1 votes

See, your first point is what I have issues with. Janna technically has no reliable way of getting all of the procs for spellthief, which was why I originally played her with coin. You could harass with Q but it does minimal damage uncharged and spamming it forces you to go OoM quick. However, I found, at least at my lowly noob level, that people aren't as afraid of Janna in lane as they are of other supports and it allows me to zone pretty hard and get free AA poke because I have apparently have "no laning presence". I rarely use tornados to poke unless it's to prevent the enemy ADC from getting canon minions.

Maybe it's my playstyle, but I like to be a lane bully and somehow Janna fit that mold.

Sugar Momma1 votes

item 3301 is never worth getting at the beginning of the game, on any champion.

Even on Janna and Soraka just begin with item 3303 don't upgrade it then later sell it for item 3069 if your team needs one.

The current buffs on the PBE to the coin line are promising though, as are the buffs to item 3504 .

Drukyul1 votes

Really? I thought the hp regen was nice for Soraka so she can continue to eat away at her own health pool.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Coin-line just got buffed on the PBE. :)))

jDVL20eCYs1 votes

spellthief or you get reported for troll, needs no explanation

SleepyLionCub1 votes

Take spell thief if you want to buy boots. Take coin if you don't want boots.

FantasySniper1 votes

Quick hypothetical question: Can you slap at them with Eye of the Storm on you (using Gale is implied) and get away with it?

If not, you would be better off picking Coin.

With the new Coin buffs, I would probably end up using it considerably more often than Edge. Mainly because of the huge regen boosts.

Erockandroll1 votes

Realistically, the gold generation on the support items needs to be balanced for the items themselves to be balanced. Ancient coin has low gold gen and will never get you any items, which is why spell thief is better. (but what about the bonuses that Talisman get's you when fully upgraded?) Then you start with spellthief and sell it for talisman when you can afford it.

now spellthief is pretty good, but it's upgrades are useless, because the lack much damage, AP, or utility. Sure it could hyper accelerate your gold production, but that's typically wasted on a support investing in such an item instead of buying the other support items right away.

Coin rout needs better gold gen, and Spellthief rout needs better abilities.

MrBuffington1 votes

I typically always take coin on Janna, I have a difficult time really making use of the procs, even when I'm playing in a lane where I can harass easily. It usually depends on the lane match up, like if I think I'll have a good time making use of the procs, I'll take spellthief's, but lately I just prefer the safety/flexibility of coin, I feel like it doesn't force me into a particular playstyle (I poke in lane with coin and spellthiefs no matter what, just for the gold from masteries, but I play a bit too aggressively trying to make use of the procs when I have spellthief's).

I prefer the final upgrade too, the extra MS and active make you run float so fast, no one can catch you, and you have an easier time making plays around the map. I also build Janna pretty tanky and just try to survive and make use of her massive utility through multiple cooldown rotations, especially since fights last longer in the tank meta. Maybe just a factor of my playstyle, but I welcome the coin buffs, and probably won't be taking spellthief's anymore on Janna.

Stonington1 votes

No, the coin item line is going to be far superior. You could make an argument that new coin vs spell thief is equal, but medallion is way better than frostfang. And talisman has always been way better than frost queen.

Partholonian1 votes

I feel like spellthief itself is strong in lane, but I wouldn't say no to buffs to its upgrades. Even for people who can make good use of the AP, it's sometimes a low priority to upgrade (or some people don't upgrade it at all and then sell it, either for talisman or for some other item entirely).

Are1 votes

I find Janna's autoattack really aggravating, so I don't use spellthief's. Maybe if they buff her AA.

Gold coin is better imo, that MS is always nice.

Singing Lark1 votes

That was exactly why I originally started with coin. I guess I got used to it enough to poke better though.

High51 votes

Coin is far too passive. It serves a farming lane and not poking at all is a quick way to lose the lane.

item 3069 = saddness

Partholonian1 votes

You can poke/harass with coin, you just don't have to. In fact, regaining more health is a great way to trade even and still come out ahead.

If you have easy to land poke that you can keep up consistently, then spellthief is great. But that doesn't really describe Janna, to me.

Lysdexic11 votes

I feel Janna is too squishy to use spellthiefs to it's maximum potential. Her only long range damaging skill is her tornado, which is pretty easy to dodge. Anything else she would have to enter a range where she could potentially be all-inned and killed easily. It isn't worth the risk in my opinion for a measly 10-30g per trade.

Miku Lv991 votes

I start with coin if I'm going to be really passive. And if they have someone I think I can sneak in attacks with here and there and get away with it, then I start with spelltheif's edge. I like Talisman so with the extra added cost of having to take the loss from selling spelltheif's, I don't think it really nets you more gold in lanes where you don't get a whole lot of attacks in.

IcyPepper1 votes

I fee like this has always been an ongoing argument of whether to take coin or spellthief's on Janna.

Personally... I think there's no objective answer. It's up to the team, the player's style, and whether you want more cc or more teamfighting MS.

Why do we have to argue which one is better? Why not just accept both have their place?

NorthernDruid1 votes

I think FQC active is great. Easily as good as the Talisman active. Plus the 50 AP does actually help quite abit (especially if you're building AP rather than defensive/supportive items).

For Janna though, after they nerfed the width of her Q, proccing Tribute is a bit harder.

Oh, and upgrading to FQC does add something to tribute, it removes the cooldown when you kill a minion, so you can take some CS here and there in the later stages of the game and still get passive procs.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Singing Lark

A Small QoL Buff for Kat
Gameplay21 comments
78
votes
This meta is so boring, I actually want to quit playing the game.
Gameplay76 comments
40
votes
Add Trinket Upgrades to Recommended items?
Gameplay3 comments
28
votes
Something about Victorious Sivir's face is... off...
Story, Art, & Sound20 comments
21
votes
TMW the enemy team first picks Riven and you pick Garen
Memes & Games0 comments
5
votes
AP bruiser Diana?
Gameplay22 comments
4
votes