why is zyra so weak in every category?

Meowstifer·Jul 12, 2015·19 votes·4,789 views

too slow, no escape, too squishy, too little damage (mainly at start, but all around unless ur fed, SOMEHOW), bad at killing creeps without mana(and has mana problems, making killing creeps WITH mana a bad choice), easy to gank... what are her upsides? getting plants that dont attack champions most of the time? (if you go in to aa the champ to get plants to focus them, u lose the trade bc of so little damage while being so squishy) shes a bad supp bc the plants will attack creeps making it harder for adc to get them, so shes a bad mid and supp... and to top it off her plants are too easy to kill with dots and multi hitters

88 Comments

Sire HippingtonJul 12, 201514 votes

weak damage? Her damage is massive, so is her CC... she's very similar to Anivia, a high damage controll mage that pays for it with low mobillity and beeing squishy, which is pretty fine for me.

MeowstiferJul 12, 20154 votes

then why isnt she played? like, ever

GreenLoreJul 12, 20153 votes

Zyra is pretty much about zone control and she is simply outclassed in that regard by Azir,whose minions can be moved,attack only what you want them to attack,are untargetable(thus they can't give your enemy gold) and also allow azir to be mobile.

But well Zyra was also played as a support before,because of her W,that can be used as a ward and her E,that has a massive range,goes through minions and can hit multiple opponents.

In the end Zyras damage potential is massive,but it is really hard to pull it off,because your abilities are slow,you have to set up a combo(your ult also buffs your plants,but you have a very small time window to ult your plants),your plants might not attack the right enemy and all that while you are a rather easy target yourself.And if you play support you might not have the needed gold to afford enough AP to be a big threat.

ConturbatioJul 12, 20152 votes

With that 0.65 ap ratio on Q, 0.5 on E, little to no damage from plants unless you have item 3151 (which is where most of their damage comes from), and 0.7 ap ratio on an ult that takes a while to spread, I don't think so....

Sire HippingtonJul 12, 20155 votes

her plants deal great damage and shoot imidiatly after spawn, increasing the dmage of your Qs quite alot. if you get 2 plants in your ult, their dps is massive, and a well placed combo will keep enemies cced in range for ~3 sec for them to put that dps into work.

FantasySniperJul 12, 20157 votes

Huge damage and enough CC to make it happen, everything else is a weakness in her kit you ~~can~~ should be playing around.

BârdJul 12, 20157 votes

Zyra has a few weaknesses.

Low base movement speed Bad passive Bad plant AI Mana issues

Thats about it.

Knight SoIaire Jul 13, 20151 votes

and her abyssmall hp pool deserwes to be noted

but i wouldnt call her weak ... lackluster if i would have to but not exactly weak

FinkypopJul 12, 20157 votes

Zyra little damage? LMAO

MeowstiferJul 12, 20152 votes

without being fed, yes, like i said it goes from weak to ok. late game ur damage is good...

FinkypopJul 12, 20156 votes

{quoted}

without being fed, yes, like i said it goes from weak to ok. late game ur damage is good...

Zyra does shit tons of damage even without being fed...

Half of the reason why she is picked in the support role is because of her oppressive laning and base damages/poke...

Do you even know what you're talking about? A support Zyra with just a Liandrys can outdamage her entire team just off plant damage alone, lol...

khorneyJul 12, 20156 votes

agreed super weak

FatesDefilerJul 12, 20155 votes

zyra is potentially the most powerful champion in the game.

MeowstiferJul 12, 20154 votes

oh and her passive has no use unless you die, so she basically doesnt have one (not to mention no w either)

BeatzBoyFTWJul 12, 20156 votes

Sion Karthus KogMaw would like to have a word with you.

ConturbatioJul 12, 20153 votes

There base states/abilities are fine, and even their passives are great. But Zyra's passive skillshot is so clunky and fires 1-2 seconds after you issue the command, even if you wait 5 seconds after she dies.

BeatzBoyFTWJul 12, 20153 votes

KogMaw seriously demands a word with you -_-

FadedpfJul 12, 20157 votes

Kogs passive is insanely good though Zyras is a joke

GunpointJul 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

would like to have a word with you.

Except lets be honest, Karthus and Sions passives are pretty good. If you kill Sion early on in a teamfight, he's still a threat that needs to be played around. Same with Karthus, and Karthus's passive is what allows him to give your team a big "fu" at the end of a team fight or a trade. Kog'Maws is pretty easy to deal with since it's damage isn't amazing, you can juke it, and any dash or movement speed buff pretty much negates it.

thinking manJul 12, 20154 votes

{quoted}

too little damage

please don't troll, even if it's your own thread

MeowstiferJul 12, 20152 votes

her damage goes from weak to ok, and good enough to kill a squishy if ur fed, but generally, its weak

thinking manJul 12, 20155 votes

{quoted}

her damage goes from weak to ok, and good enough to kill a squishy if ur fed, but generally, its weak

Zyra in any given game will top the charts unless the Zyra is literally a potato on a keyboard or there is some other super high damage champion.

A Miss FortuneJul 12, 20152 votes

Just would like to chip in and compare Zyra to another mid-laner who also is a popular support, who also is immobile, has a game changing ultimate, and AoE CC and damage.

Zyra's Q: 210 + 65% AP (5 Second CD) Zyra's E: 200 + 50% AP (12 Second CD) Zyra's R: 350 + 70% AP (1 Minute 10 Second CD)

Annie Q: 220 + 80% AP (4 Second CD) Annie W: 250 + 85% AP (8 Second CD) Annie R: 425 + 80% AP (80 Second CD)

Both of these are Mid Laners who are extremely immobile, have AoE Crowd Control and damage, are squishy, and mana-hungry with big game changing ultimates. Both of them also are viable and popular supports.

Annie however, while her Q isn't reliable is point and click, has higher base damage on everything, and has higher AP scaling on everything while instead of just having a Snares and Knock-Ups, all of her abilities except her E have the potential to stun people for up to 1.75 seconds. The longest duration of Zyra's E snare is 1.75 seconds (It's a snare, not a stun.) and the knock-up on her ultimate is 1 second at all ranks.

These two champions aren't a whole lot different in terms of their roles and playstyles. They're both Mages who are good Supports, that manipulate Crowd Control and have scary good Ultimates. Despite this, Annie is more reliable, has higher scaling, has higher base damage, and also has noticeably lower cooldowns.

Literally the only reason to pick Zyra over Annie would be due to Zyra's fairly long range. Despite this, all of her abilities are not instant and her Q, E, and R all have fairly longer travel times/delays or whatever they're called. To be honest, there's not a whole lot of reason to be hit by Zyra a lot. Her Q has a 1.5 second delay if I remember, her E has a fair Travel Time however it's a VERY necessary part to her combo and even if you're super fed, you're going to need more than just your Q to kill someone, and finally her ultimate has a 2 second delay which is decent for how large the radius and range is, though people can quickly move out of it if not CC'ed.

tl;dr Zyra is inferior in most aspects to similar CC Burst Mages/Supports including Damage, Scaling, Cooldowns, and Reliability with basically her only strong side being Range.

RozzetaJul 12, 20152 votes

Q's delay is less than a second, not 1.5. Delay is only long enough for you to place a W before the skill hits, which should give you a plant dealing additional 0.2 AP plus whatever base damage it had based on Zyra's level. The ranged plant from QW combo should be hitting a fleeing enemy at least twice, and if W was used right next to the enemy then you should be able to bypass the AI issues, which are real and annoying. These plants are what allow Zyra to zone like a boss. The delay on Zyra's ultimate is for the CC, the damage is instant.

Also, longest range Annie has is 650 while smallest range Zyra has is 700 (on her ultimate, which has a considerable radius) and Annie can't be using skills to push lane if she wants to preserve her stun. Considering the skill ranges, Annie should not be in range to use W on Zyra without risking being hit by her E (and by default the rest of Zyra's combo, plants included), so Annie's W is not the reliable source of damage you think it is, unless Zyra is stunned.

Does this mean Zyra has the upper hand against Annie? I don't know. Zyra could easily punish an Annie from afar, as it's easy to note an Annie with stun up getting close to you is obviously up to something, and Annie might not be able to get rid of the plants easily is she has to preserve her passive; but is quite vulnerable to the flash + R combo at level 6. I was just kind of pissed by how you made it sound so one sided when it actually isn't.

Sozan5Jul 13, 20151 votes

Her Q have 0,625s delay, which is less than half of what you stated.

You haven't listed her plant damage, which is quite significant:

30-140 +20% AP (depending on her level) (and you usually have 2 plants active immidiately)

The first shot from plants goes out nearly immidiately and as far as I tested - it prioritizes champions if the ability hit (only for the first attack).

Also, the plants have immense attack range (750/400 - depending on the type) and apply on-spell effects (Rylai slow, Luden's Echo, Spell Vamp etc.).

Zyra is not weak. Her damage and CC completely justifies her other weaknesses. Have you ever played her?

A Miss FortuneJul 13, 20151 votes

Her CC would justify her weakness, if they weren't ridiculously easy to dodge. Really in lane, unless you're up close to Zyra (This goes with pretty much anyone with skillshots too), you shouldn't be hit by her skillshots most of the time. It's so easy to simply dodge her abilities, not only that but her plants can get one good shot off you and once you step out of their radius they just focus minions down.

Zyra's CC does NOT justify her medicore damage, low base stats, and no mobility, when it's ridiculously easy to simply dodge it.

Sozan5Jul 13, 20152 votes

... Did you read what I wrote?

Her exceptionally high damage due to her plants and good CC justifies her mediocre base stats and lack of mobility.

A Miss FortuneJul 13, 20151 votes

Her plants don't really offer that much damage. Late game with about 500 AP, which is pretty standard with a Deathcap or something, they'll be doing around 240 damage with only .8 Attack Speed. I think the biggest issue with Zyra's plants are just that their attack speed is so low.

Sure this may seem nice, but when you realize the plants are able to be killed by most ADCs in about one second, have a bugged AI, and have ridiculously slow attack speed even when they're in your ult, it shows that her plants really aren't that strong to compensate for a lot Zyra has to put up with that's essentially handed to other Mid laners like Annie.

thinking manJul 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MAvmEWro,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-12T23:07:12.714+0000)

Just would like to chip in and compare Zyra to another mid-laner who also is a popular support, who also is immobile, has a game changing ultimate, and AoE CC and damage.

Zyra's Q: 210 + 65% AP (5 Second CD) Zyra's E: 200 + 50% AP (12 Second CD) Zyra's R: 350 + 70% AP (1 Minute 10 Second CD)

vs

Annie Q: 220 + 80% AP (4 Second CD) Annie W: 250 + 85% AP (8 Second CD) Annie R: 425 + 80% AP (80 Second CD)

Both of these are Mid Laners who are extremely immobile, have AoE Crowd Control and damage, are squishy, and mana-hungry with big game changing ultimates. Both of them also are viable and popular supports.

Annie however, while her Q isn't reliable is point and click, has higher base damage on everything, and has higher AP scaling on everything while instead of just having a Snares and Knock-Ups, all of her abilities except her E have the potential to stun people for up to 1.75 seconds. The longest duration of Zyra's E snare is 1.75 seconds (It's a snare, not a stun.) and the knock-up on her ultimate is 1 second at all ranks.

These two champions aren't a whole lot different in terms of their roles and playstyles. They're both Mages who are good Supports, that manipulate Crowd Control and have scary good Ultimates. Despite this, Annie is more reliable, has higher scaling, has higher base damage, and also has noticeably lower cooldowns.

Literally the only reason to pick Zyra over Annie would be due to Zyra's fairly long range. Despite this, all of her abilities are not instant and her Q, E, and R all have fairly longer travel times/delays or whatever they're called. To be honest, there's not a whole lot of reason to be hit by Zyra a lot. Her Q has a 1.5 second delay if I remember, her E has a fair Travel Time however it's a VERY necessary part to her combo and even if you're super fed, you're going to need more than just your Q to kill someone, and finally her ultimate has a 2 second delay which is decent for how large the radius and range is, though people can quickly move out of it if not CC'ed.

tl;dr Zyra is inferior in most aspects to similar CC Burst Mages/Supports including Damage, Scaling, Cooldowns, and Reliability with basically her only strong side being Range.

You cannot compare burst to high sustained damage. Zyra's plants gives her very high damage because of the ease of execution of the damage. Zyra's playstyle is closer to a poke/zone control mage rather than a true burst mage. Your problem is probably the delusion that every mage should be able to roll their face on their keyboard and one-shot somebody and everybody around them which is not how Zyra is supposed to be played.

A Miss FortuneJul 13, 20151 votes

Actually, if you look at my match history the only mages I play are Zyra, Cassiopeia, and Syndra and right now my most played champions are Miss Fortune with 104,000 points, Evelynn with 30,000-ish, and Zyra with Level 4. So yeah, I'm actually against faceroll champions and I think the only ones I own are Leblanc and Katarina

Zyra can be considered a zoning mage but, the only thing she can really do effectively is use her plants. Honestly the damage of her plants is underestimated and it's awesome when they work however they're so easy to kill and their AI is terrible.

Zyra relies on her Q+E combo which, like Annie with her Q+W combo, is on a pretty low cooldown that they both just spam. Both of them can be pretty reliant on their ults too, if they aren't fed and fell behind, to get a kill.

Zyra can be considered sustained due to her plants, but her plants attack pretty slow, have a terrible AI, and also can be killed in like, less than a second by ADCs and she's extremely reliant on spamming her Q+E.

thinking manJul 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MAvmEWro,comment-id=000700000000000000020000,timestamp=2015-07-13T13:42:43.933+0000)

Actually, if you look at my match history the only mages I play are Zyra, Cassiopeia, and Syndra and right now my most played champions are Miss Fortune with 104,000 points, Evelynn with 30,000-ish, and Zyra with Level 4. So yeah, I'm actually against faceroll champions and I think the only ones I own are Leblanc and Katarina

Zyra can be considered a zoning mage but, the only thing she can really do effectively is use her plants. Honestly the damage of her plants is underestimated and it's awesome when they work however they're so easy to kill and their AI is terrible.

Zyra relies on her Q+E combo which, like Annie with her Q+W combo, is on a pretty low cooldown that they both just spam. Both of them can be pretty reliant on their ults too, if they aren't fed and fell behind, to get a kill.

Zyra can be considered sustained due to her plants, but her plants attack pretty slow, have a terrible AI, and also can be killed in like, less than a second by ADCs and she's extremely reliant on spamming her Q+E.

Syndra is basically just Annie with a skillshot stun instead of a point and click stun.

Cassiopeia basically plays the same way but has to hit E a bunch to do it

Zyra's plants are not that bad at all and people wasting resources to kill them means they get 2-3 free hits in for no real cost to Zyra. If people are focusing your plants rather than avoiding them then you should've won by then. Zyra doesn't have any real problems right now.

A Miss FortuneJul 13, 20151 votes

Katarina is basically Nautilus since she has AoE damage that isn't a skillshot.

Yasuo is basically Galio since their ults can win games

Yeah, Zyra's plants are REALLY good. They don't have a buggy AI, they have AMAZING attack speed, and I love how plants late game are instantly blown up in teamfights.

Zyra overall has no problems. She has a lot of mobility, she doesn't have very low base stats, all of her abilities definitely have no delays or very slow travel times whatsoever, oh and lets not forget about the insane damage she does. It's not like AP Sona Mid's combo does more damage at all. Just look at the facts!

Sona Q/Passive: 492 + 90% AP + 40% more damage on her passive

Zyra Q/E: 410 + 115% AP

But remember, Zyra's plants make up for her lack of damage and extremely easy-to-hit skillshots that are almost point and click. Oh, let's not forget about that overpowered passive Zyra has. Nerf that thing Riot.

thinking manJul 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MAvmEWro,comment-id=00070000000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-13T14:35:19.857+0000)

Katarina is basically Nautilus since she has AoE damage that isn't a skillshot.

Yasuo is basically Galio since their ults can win games

Yeah, Zyra's plants are REALLY good. They don't have a buggy AI, they have AMAZING attack speed, and I love how plants late game are instantly blown up in teamfights.

Zyra overall has no problems. She has a lot of mobility, she doesn't have very low base stats, all of her abilities definitely have no delays or very slow travel times whatsoever, oh and lets not forget about the insane damage she does. It's not like AP Sona Mid's combo does more damage at all. Just look at the facts!

Sona Q/Passive: 492 + 90% AP + 40% more damage on her passive

Zyra Q/E: 410 + 115% AP

But remember, Zyra's plants make up for her lack of damage and extremely easy-to-hit skillshots that are almost point and click. Oh, let's not forget about that overpowered passive Zyra has. Nerf that thing Riot.

Syndra and Annie have exactly the same role and build the same items. They both just seek to kill one person by dumping everything they have on them after landing a stun. The only difference is the dynamic with which you have to land the stun.

You seem to mistake a champion having actual weaknesses with a champion having massive gameplay problems; all of her weaknesses are compensated by the safety of her damage. She's not a burst mage either so I'm not sure why you're comparing single target burst to Zyra's many AoE spells and the damage of her plants. You once again seem to be expecting that you can just roll your face on the keyboard towards somebody and have them explode.

A Miss FortuneJul 13, 20151 votes

I'm not expecting for Zyra to be a faceroll champ, and actually if you looked at my match history the only champions are play, besides in ARAM, pretty much are considered "Underpowered", "Trash-tier", or just have a really high skill base.

If Zyra and Annie are exactly the same, why does Annie have more damage, more tankiness, lower cooldowns, and much more reliable abilities. You just said they have exactly the same role, yet I think Annie is superior to Zyra in literally everything except range, even then Annie's reliability compensates for that since it's harder to miss with her abilities than to actually hit them.

Zyra isn't sustained damage, the only sustained damage she has are her plants which are irrelevant if Zyra isn't ahead. If she isn't burst damage either, then what is she? If I wanted CC I'd just pick Annie, Orianna, Morgana, etc. If I wanted sustained damage I would pick Cassiopeia, Karma, Azir, Anivia, etc. If I wanted burst damage I would pick Viktor, Lux, Brand, or Veigar.

There's nothing Zyra does that others can't do. She's a minion-mancer with relatively low damage and some CC that's extremely easy to avoid. I've played Zyra alot and have carried enough games with her, that I know what I'm talking about. She's so much fun and probably my second favorite mid laner to Syndra, but what is the point of playing her when she's SO handicapped. Why play Zyra over someone like Annie who can do everything she does, but better? Annie or someone else?

I don't expect Zyra to be a faceroll champion, and believe it or not she was. However I do expect buffs to her so that she isn't so handicapped.

thinking manJul 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=MAvmEWro,comment-id=0007000000000000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-13T15:31:29.622+0000)

I'm not expecting for Zyra to be a faceroll champ, and actually if you looked at my match history the only champions are play, besides in ARAM, pretty much are considered "Underpowered", "Trash-tier", or just have a really high skill base.

If Zyra and Annie are exactly the same, why does Annie have more damage, more tankiness, lower cooldowns, and much more reliable abilities. You just said they have exactly the same role, yet I think Annie is superior to Zyra in literally everything except range, even then Annie's reliability compensates for that since it's harder to miss with her abilities than to actually hit them.

Zyra isn't sustained damage, the only sustained damage she has are her plants which are irrelevant if Zyra isn't ahead. If she isn't burst damage either, then what is she? If I wanted CC I'd just pick Annie, Orianna, Morgana, etc. If I wanted sustained damage I would pick Cassiopeia, Karma, Azir, Anivia, etc. If I wanted burst damage I would pick Viktor, Lux, Brand, or Veigar.

There's nothing Zyra does that others can't do. She's a minion-mancer with relatively low damage and some CC that's extremely easy to avoid. I've played Zyra alot and have carried enough games with her, that I know what I'm talking about. She's so much fun and probably my second favorite mid laner to Syndra, but what is the point of playing her when she's SO handicapped. Why play Zyra over someone like Annie who can do everything she does, but better? Annie or someone else?

I don't expect Zyra to be a faceroll champion, and believe it or not she was. However I do expect buffs to her so that she isn't so handicapped.

I think you are expecting Zyra to be faceroll since you wouldn't be trying to buff a champion that isn't underpowered otherwise.

I never said Zyra and Annie, I said Syndra and Annie.

Zyra's cooldowns are not long and the plants add some extra damage to every spell. She has okay peel and good damage in general. If she doesn't have high sustained damage then the damage charts must be lying since a Zyra in just about any game where she isn't playing like shit will be at the top for damage.

Name a champion that creates minions which always take 3 hits or 2 spells to kill and which damage you for standing near them and which will activate these minions approximately twice every combo.