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Tanks/Assassins and sub Tanks issues and possible solutions.

Devilreaper XIII··1 votes·502 views

tanks need a damage nerf, i noticed leona her zenith blade takes a quarter of hp, whereas a jinx with zap takes THE SAME amount early game.... the only difference is that jinx has an offensive item and leona has an support item......

so tanks are on par with any champion when it comes to damage, so riot should lower the damage tanks can do overall with ablilities. tanks don't even have to build offense to cause damage.

Leona basic stats below http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/leona/

maxed out abilities cause a total of : q = 130 + 114,04 = 244,04 damage w = 220 damage e = 220 damage r = 250 + (114,04) = 364,04 + 250 = 614,04 damage

total of 1298,08 damage based on basic stats on lvl 18. imagine she has ad or ap in her build with tank items .-. adc and mages have about 2000 hp, Leona takes about 1200 - 80 def/mr hp away, thats more than half the hp. 1 combo from leona will leave you half dead. a second combo just from her q w and e will cause about 680 damage so lets say adc has 2000 hp - 1200 = 800 800 - 600 = 200 hp left, and leona tanks insane damage + double stun root and bonus def/mr on top of that. (q + w + e = aprox 680 i took about 80 def/mr) tanks should take only about 30% hp at max per combo in my opinion. like riot states * tanks don't focus on damage* see above i say YEAH RIGHT!

assassins should just get skillshots.....

HEALTH and MR items need to stop giving so much AD. items like black cleaver and such, just break the game.

http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/garen/ http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/leona/

Leona is main tank and Garen is sub tank.

Leona gains 64,8 armor in total + 27.208 as basic armor = 92 armor basic stats at level 18 Garen gains 54 armor in total + 27.536 = 81,5 armor basic stats at lvl 18 both Garen and Leona gain 22,5 mr in total + 32,1 = 54,6 mr basic stats at lvl 18

Leona gains 54 ad in total + 60,04 = 114,04 ad basic stats at lvl 18 Garen gains 81 ad in total + 57,88 = 138,88 ad basic stats at lvl 18

conclusion the difference between tank and sub tank are 10,5 armor 0 mr and 24,84 ad

Garen stats below no extra ad by items! http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/garen/

basic attack lvl 18 = 57,88 + 81 = 138,88

q = 130 + 194,432 = 333,312 e = 30 + 6 + 52,77 = 88,77 per hit (4 hits = 355,08) r = based on 2500 hp = 525 (+ 1000 = 1525) + (25 = 1550) ( i think 2000/2500 hp is kinda average)

total damage dealt 2238,392 damage (based on opponent 2500 hp) 2038,392 damage (based on opponent 2000 hp)

difference Leona vs Garen total damage full combo = 2238,392 - 1298,08 = 940,312 (based on 2500 hp) 2038,392 - 1298,08 = 740,312 (based on 2000 hp)

i just realized garen is just flat out broken .-. that damage with only 25 less basic armor..... and the same basic mr.....

eh but the point is sub tanks can build health/mr/armor items and gain more attack damage..... while being almost just as tanky as tanks :/

24 Comments

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

yet LEONA dont build ap cant proc her own passive and has multiple forms of cc/engage

garen has no true cc , he has a small silence and no real engage and he builds damage

thats like comparing apples and rocks

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lx8KIfmz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-07-23T19:32:17.042+0000)

yet LEONA dont build ap cant proc her own passive and has multiple forms of cc/engage

garen has no true cc , he has a small silence and no real engage and he builds damage

thats like comparing apples and rocks

i never said garen was a tank i said garen was a sub tank... the comparison is not between tanks, but to see the difference in stats between fighter sub tank and tank....

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

which is comparing apples to rocks

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lx8KIfmz,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-24T16:19:41.655+0000)

which is comparing apples to rocks

you don't get it? or don't want to get it?

THATS THE WHOLE POINT! it should be comparing apples to rocks!

too bad they are both too similar in stats, that there is barely a difference in tankyness, even if garen can do 4k damage, most only have 2 k hp so its overkill, but yeah garen is stronger than leona, but leona still takes at least 50% hp off in 1 combo, compare them by tankyness, and suddenly they are way too similar, thats my point. garen does more damage but leona has more cc, they are ON PAR! who will win vs ? garen or leona?

tanks can easily 1vs1 or even 1vs5 and get kills, garen which is a fighter can do the same, so its not comparing apples and rocks.....

so solutions i suggest are :

1 tanks need damage nerf capping ability damage at give or take 30% instead of 50%, by 1 combo. 2 sub tanks shouldn't be able to build so much ad/ap with defense/sustain items so taking another look at items like black cleaver or titanic etc might be a solution OR they need a armor, mr or health/health regen nerf.

but i guess we have to wait now for the new runes to implement fully, since i read somewhere that riot was going to alter stats on all champs as well.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

they are no where near the same...

and the reason how and why tanks do damage and can get a kill when 1 vs 3 is cuz they are so tanky they survive long enough to get a damn good amount of damage over the duration of the fight...

garen is a juggernaut... he is designed to be melee, short range, low mobility low cc but high damage out put if he gets on to you garen has 3 damage abilities whos purpose is to do damage

leona is a (vangaurd) tank who has 3 froms of cc but low damage... you dont build damage on her at all... her passive legit makes her reliant on team following up on her engages to proc to do damage

and her abilties scale on AP damage (which she dont build at all) and her W her eclipse (shield scales with bonus armor/mr ) which she builds tons of "diving into the enemy" to engage

she dont have an execute or true damage , armor reduction on an ability or really damage scaling

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lx8KIfmz,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-24T16:52:48.930+0000)

they are no where near the same...

and the reason how and why tanks do damage and can get a kill when 1 vs 3 is cuz they are so tanky they survive long enough to get a damn good amount of damage over the duration of the fight...

nope they burst you with a combo no dps .-.

garen is a juggernaut... he is designed to be melee, short range, low mobility low cc but high damage out put if he gets on to you garen has 3 damage abilities whos purpose is to do damage

his mobility is just normal he even has a cleanse on him O.o, his range is melee ofcourse, but he tanks as much as any tank on top of it and thats the problem.

leona is a (vangaurd) tank who has 3 froms of cc but low damage... you dont build damage on her at all... her passive legit makes her reliant on team following up on her engages to proc to do damage

i saw leona top own people easy..... after she got her 3 stuns and root..... no get away and pure damage and the tankyness on top of that was insane.

and her abilties scale on AP damage (which she dont build at all) and her W her eclipse (shield scales with bonus armor/mr ) which she builds tons of "diving into the enemy" to engage

she does at least 1200 damage without ap, thats quite some, most champions have 2000 hp at lvl 18 O.o, so leona still takes about 50-60% hp off in 1 combo, so she can kill you in 2 combos..... with cdr on her shes lethal.....

she dont have an execute or true damage , armor reduction on an ability or really damage scaling

almost all her abilities scale on damage O.o, she has mainly bonus damage instead of true damage..... i'm talking she can kill you just like any other champion, but tanking more.

most champions that burst do this : 80% damage 1 combo 60% damage second combo leona does 60% damage 1 combo and 40% damage second combo..... whats the difference ? they both hit 100%

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

i never said tanks did DPS i said they do damage over time due to their tankyness , aoe damages and sustain cuz it takes so long to kill them

tanks dont burst

just cuz you saw someone do something with leona one time dont mean she isnt viable as a damage dealer/juggernaut

if she was viable as a damage dealer she would be used more so in top/jungle but she isnt nearly 0% play rate

just stop with the nonsense

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lx8KIfmz,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-25T09:52:46.442+0000)

i never said tanks did DPS i said they do damage over time due to their tankyness , aoe damages and sustain cuz it takes so long to kill them

tanks dont burst

not sure what you mean by damage over time..... no one is crazy anough to remain long near a tank... don't know if you noticed, but tanks have abilities too O.o they don't generally basic attack much.... so YES they burst you with a combo -.- some tanks can instakill, and some kill you in 2 combos, whereas it takes you at least 3 combos to take down a tank....

just cuz you saw someone do something with leona one time dont mean she isnt viable as a damage dealer/juggernaut

if she was viable as a damage dealer she would be used more so in top/jungle but she isnt nearly 0% play rate

just stop with the nonsense

nope you are wrong it just depends on which champion players prefer to play, and as is now leona isnt that popular thats all..... every champion is VIABLE as damage dealer, that is where the issue lies, this isn't nonsense....

win/lose or playrate says nothing about viability O.o just popularity.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

the fact you cant understand how a tank does damage over time in a team fight and how aoe damage is factored in is 1st issue

2nd if leona was viable as a solo laner it would be used more often and if it was used it would have a pick % and a win % but it dont cuz it really dont work

tanks arent designed to have burst

people will play any champ if they think they can win and climb elo with it... and will play that champ ideally in the best possible situation (role/team comp etc ) to do so and if a champ is broken to the point any one can win with it and carry games then it would be popular

looked at your match history searched for games with leona found O looked at your OP.GG for rank and normals for this season for leona games found 0

i for one play leona... know the champ well

if you truly think this and wanna prove me wrong then play her how you claim and carry games and show me the proof

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lx8KIfmz,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-26T09:20:48.378+0000)

the fact you cant understand how a tank does damage over time in a team fight and how aoe damage is factored in is 1st issue

2nd if leona was viable as a solo laner it would be used more often and if it was used it would have a pick % and a win % but it dont cuz it really dont work

tanks arent designed to have burst

people will play any champ if they think they can win and climb elo with it... and will play that champ ideally in the best possible situation (role/team comp etc ) to do so and if a champ is broken to the point any one can win with it and carry games then it would be popular

looked at your match history searched for games with leona found O looked at your OP.GG for rank and normals for this season for leona games found 0

i for one play leona... know the champ well

if you truly think this and wanna prove me wrong then play her how you claim and carry games and show me the proof

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lx8KIfmz,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-07-26T09:24:21.809+0000)

i use to be a leona main as a support player she is in bad spot she is outshined by so many champs and just recently due to tanky supports coming back is now playable again

she is one of the over all worst champs in the game currently so many better champs to play Leona has a win rate 48.76% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Leona's are earning a win rate of 54.46% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond IV.

LoLalytics ranks Leona at 129 amongst all champions earning a tier grade of Silver.

This ranking takes into account the win rate of Platinum+ players, the pick/ban influence of Leona, the win rate and average rank of the best Leona players.

i know someone in real who plays leona main.... and i can tell you those third grade third party sites are run by full retards O.o

he mains leona and owns with it and became mastery lvl 7 in just a few days...... so don't go telling me leona is underwhelming -.- kindred is the most underwhelimg champion in the game right now.

i don't know how you guys play in na O.o if you guys can't even play with leona who has 2 stuns and 1 root and gains bonus armor/mr AND does damage :P

all you have to do is stun and stall O.o

next thing you know, you gonna tell me blitz is underwhelming, and garen and riven? and zed? and talon? and xin zhao? and vi ?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

believe what you want... you dont even play the damn champ...

and if you think you are right... then play it and prove it and you can rub it my face til then im done responding to your ignorance on the fact

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

i use to be a leona main as a support player she is in bad spot she is outshined by so many champs and just recently due to tanky supports coming back is now playable again

she is one of the over all worst champs in the game currently so many better champs to play Leona has a win rate 48.76% for Platinum+ players whilst the very best Leona's are earning a win rate of 54.46% with the average rank of these top players being in Diamond IV.

LoLalytics ranks Leona at 129 amongst all champions earning a tier grade of Silver.

This ranking takes into account the win rate of Platinum+ players, the pick/ban influence of Leona, the win rate and average rank of the best Leona players.

Big Lincoln1 votes

eh but the point is sub tanks can build health/mr/armor items and gain more attack damage..... while being almost just as tanky as tanks :/

because they have almost no significant cc

which is the entire point of a bruiser

Sad Tyrant1 votes

Vi, Xin, Trundle, rek'sai

Unless I'm confused about which champs count as Sub-tanks

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Lx8KIfmz,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-24T11:19:35.373+0000)

Vi, Xin, Trundle, rek'sai

Unless I'm confused about which champs count as Sub-tanks

only trundle is sub tank O.O the rest are fighters, you even enhanced my point, since most of these are as tanky as a real tank.

Cocho1 votes

You can't really just look numbers and nothing else.

It doesn't make sense to compare leo E to jinx zap, when leo maxes this ability last while jinx gets s 140% AD ratio from her zap. Also maxing it 2nd. Zap gets maxed out level 13, while leo's e gets maxed out level 18. That isn't early game.

Also, if Leo can sit there and auto attack a squishy 5 times in the late game teamfight at level 18, they probably deserve to be dead for one reason or another. Leo isn't going to kill a competent ADC or midlaner by herself full build.

Garen does more damage depending if he's only hitting one target, and then his ult scales on missing health. It also depends if the target is marked by him or not. He also doesn't offer nearly as much CC as a tank.

I agree tanks are strong but you're looking at the wrong ones lol. Chogath Maokai Zac Sejuani

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

Chogath is listed as "unique game play" and dont fall under the sub classes categories as a tank

LOL

Cocho1 votes

Just because something is unique, doesn't mean its okay to be broken lol.

I honestly could care less about what champion belong to what class.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but you claim he was a tank... and when i claim that mundo is tank i get hate... lol

cuz riot list him as a juggernaut...

i was just pointing out he isnt a tank... nothing more

Cocho1 votes

[deleted]

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

oh its not just the boards... stupidity is an epidemic on society

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

{quoted}

Just because something is unique, doesn't mean its okay to be broken lol.

I honestly could care less about what champion belong to what class.

sub classes are just a nonsense thing riot came up with, so they can say : HEY LOOK LOOK ITS SUB CLASS X SO ITS NOT BROKEN! against all those whining players about nerfing champions, its less of a hassle for riot to just dismiss instead of to fix :/

don't get fooled, mundo is a fighter and cho gath a mage -.- http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/

since cho gath has to stack to be tanky, cho isnt initially tanky. thats why i guess. and mundo focuses on damaging abilities and not cc, riots own words are : Tanks excel in shrugging off incoming damage and focus on disrupting their enemies more than being significant damage threats themselves. http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/dev-blog-classes-subclasses

hence this discussion O.O

since they DO focus on damage.

as for fighters : Fighters are durable and damage-focused melee champions that look to be in the thick of combat.

and yet they practically tank as much as any main tank.... take garen.... so durable is just another word for tank i guess...

funny how you get to see vi at divers, shes tanky as fk :/ i remember vi was one of the few soloing drake at lvl 3 @.@ and darius has no gap closer or mobility O.o ?

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

oh im fine with nerfs to cho, im not defending him... zac is a pain in the ass... really havent faced or had many issues with sej

but leave my tree da fuk alone alright ?

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

{quoted}

You can't really just look numbers and nothing else.

It doesn't make sense to compare leo E to jinx zap, when leo maxes this ability last while jinx gets s 140% AD ratio from her zap. Also maxing it 2nd. Zap gets maxed out level 13, while leo's e gets maxed out level 18. That isn't early game.

Also, if Leo can sit there and auto attack a squishy 5 times in the late game teamfight at level 18, they probably deserve to be dead for one reason or another. Leo isn't going to kill a competent ADC or midlaner by herself full build.

Garen does more damage depending if he's only hitting one target, and then his ult scales on missing health. It also depends if the target is marked by him or not. He also doesn't offer nearly as much CC as a tank.

I agree tanks are strong but you're looking at the wrong ones lol. Chogath Maokai Zac Sejuani

did you ever went 1vs1 against a leona O.o ? i took leona since shes just a tank and has no sub classes well if you can consider support a class O.o

jinx starts 10 damage leona starts 60 O.O its evened out XD

leona gains attack range O.O and can hit up to 5 times.

its not about how much damage garen does but how much damage he tanks, and how much damage leona does compared to garen.

i only took those 2 as example but i mean ofcourse tanks in general and sub tanks in general.

all i was trying to say is that tanks still cause too much damage and sub tanks absorb too much damage.

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