The most "healthy" assassin?

Zakith··3 votes·1,271 views

Riot recently released a podcast on the state of the game, and in it they mentioned the upcoming assassin update. If you didn't see it, you can find it here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/state-game-meddler-zirene-and-more . In this podcast, they were talking about ways that assassins can be useful to teams without being so oppressive. Currently, if an assassin doesn't kill an enemy then they are useless, and if they do kill an enemy then the enemy they killed is aggravated because they couldn't do anything about it. Think Talon for example. Riot doesn't like the way this plays out, so they are looking at other things for assassins to be able to do to be useful to a team. Now, they said that one of the things that an assassin needs is counterplay. I absolutely agree with this statement, being blown up without anything you could have done is aggravating to say the least. What I don't agree with is that they listed Zed as the "healthiest" assassin. He has counterplay ability and enemies have the ability to counterplay him, he can kill enemies but isn't guaranteed if he messes up. However, I don't see what else he brings to the table besides killing people. It doesn't seem to fit the idea of "other things an assassin can do besides kill people."

In my opinion, the healthiest assassin is actually Evelynn . I know, she's pretty weak right now and difficult to balance. However, I think that she is still the healthiest. First things first: she can kill people. An out of position ADC can be killed pretty easily by her. However, she isn't guaranteed the kill if she messes up (uses her w early, gets collapsed on by the enemy team). To me, that seems to fit the bill on what Riot wants assassins to be doing. Killing but only if they do it right. BUT she does more than that. Her passive applies pressure unlike any other character in the game. A good Eve can make every enemy play a little safer while not doing anything at all. The THREAT that she might be in the lane, right next to her laner and you can't even see her is just as great as the actuality of her being there. To me, this fits the bill of the second thing that Riot wants from assassins: more than just a way to delete an enemy carry.

Now, I'm not saying that Eve is perfect the way that she is. Her inability to "assassinate" enemies compared to assassins like Talon leaves something to be desired when playing her. Her inability to get out of the fight after she's killed her target is kind of an issue late game. However. I think the upcoming assassin update might be the perfect time to fix these issues. A couple of ideas that I've had are an ability which immediately drops her invisible, with a grace period where nearby enemies don't reveal her (think Khazix ult), or maybe an ability which can drop a marker under her for her to recall to within the next 5(?) seconds (like Leblanc w without the dash). These would give her a little more safety to play assassin without having to build tanky like she does now.

To wrap up this long rant, two things. Number 1: Riot, Zed isn't a bad benchmark of a healthy assassin, but Eve is also a great one too! Give her some thought when coming up with new things for them! And number 2: what ideas do you guys have for making Eve a little better without making her blatantly broken? What thoughts do you have about Eve being a healthy assassin?

43 Comments

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

Mechanically speaking, Zed might be healthier than Talon, but Talon's power curve is infinitely better, making games against a Talon much more enjoyable on average.

warpenguin5551 votes

zed is because he can actually miss his abilitys. talon can only miss his w and in weird cases his ult.

Zephyrous X2 votes

Kassadin only one with a reasonable amount of counterplay

Critmaster Garen3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zephyrous X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LgXssQ0K,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-07-11T18:33:50.715+0000)

Kassadin only one with a reasonable amount of counterplay

just no.

that champion has been batshit broken since day 1 of this game. he was never in a spot where he was balanced. either op beyond belief, or trash teir.

same goes for leblanc. its just the entire concept of ranged point and click assassinations on champions with low cooldown flashes is impossible to balance.

there is no risk involved in their playstile and their ability to roam all over the map, and just reliably pick off targets is stupid.

have you played when kassadin was strong? shit was a nightmare. i dont think in the last 2 years a champion was as op as kassadin back then. maybe rework skarner.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Khazix or Shaco imo. They conditionally deal good damage, but don't have ridiculous safety if they do. Their counterplay is reasonable and when I die to them i don't feel like there was nothing i could do. If i die to them it feels like my fault which isn't something i can say with many other assassins.

skyfall6192 votes

Ekko imo as an assassin is prolly the most healthy and balanced of them all. his kit has clear weakness and clear ways for counterplay, this is for assassin ekko guys. Talon is prolly one of the least healthy assassins as a super binary assassin his kit offer little to no counterplay while being super fast to pull off and entire combo giving no time to respond. Evelynn is prolly the most unhealthy champ in the game

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Ekko imo as an assassin is prolly the most healthy and balanced of them all. his kit has clear weakness and clear ways for counterplay, this is for assassin ekko guys. Talon is prolly one of the least healthy assassins as a super binary assassin his kit offer little to no counterplay while being super fast to pull off and entire combo giving no time to respond. Evelynn is prolly the most unhealthy champ in the game

ekko isnt an assassin anymore. hes a weird mix between an ap bruiser and a utility mage.

warpenguin5551 votes

ekko can build tank. DQed

Ralanr1 votes

Anyone can build tank. Doesn't make them a tank.

warpenguin5552 votes

in ekkos case, it did. and like tank fizz, its aids

Zakith1 votes

I think the biggest problem that people have with Evelynn is that she is sooo hard to balance. The perma-stealth means that her damage has to be low to compensate. IMO, this is a fine trade-off. She can be a more bruiser-ish assassin, though I wish she had some way of disengaging other than run really fast. Besides, most unhealthy champ goes to Yorick. My man's been off the free rotation for longer than I've been playing.

warpenguin5552 votes

Khazix

Stalinium2 votes

Only commenting to see where this discussion goes, as I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions on this.

I'm a Talon main :/ and I hope that my champion is not gutted. However, I completely understand that when an assassin gets to their power spike, if the enemy is behind/even it can be quite unhealthy to get nuclear bombed by a Talon. Is it fun to kill people and sometimes walk away with my Q still available, as the enemy died before I could auto? Yes... Is it fair? Not really

67chrome2 votes

Well, these guys are all the assassin primaries and probably the guys to look at for healthiest assassin.

Akali Ekko EvelynnFizz Kassadin Katarina Khazix Leblanc MasterYi Nocturne Rengar Shaco Talon Zed

It's kind of hard to like Zed what with him being an assassin, but looking at the alternatives: I'm not sure I'd disagree with Riot.

The biggest thing Zed really has going for him is that he really fits the aesthetic and feel of an assassin and his lanning phase fits really well into the meta, being a pretty solid foundation to look towards in that regard.

As a support main I also tend to hate going against Zed less than just about any other assassin. His mark detonation allows time to respond with healing and shielding, his telegraphed dash gives time to line up a solid stun, and his skillshot-combo can be flashed out of and miss. Usually doesn't, but man: you feel like a total boss when you do manage to sidestep it, so Zed gets points for that.

Nocturne is an honorable mention, though I feel that's more a result of his kit being kind of "meh" rather than them having well-balanced, amazing stuffs. Nocturne's ult is still pretty cool on either side of it though, and it does offer a lot of utility in a very assassin-esque way. Not an Ekko "lol I have tank utilities" way.

Same with his fear dynamic.

His spell-shield is less fun to play against though.

Kaisa is Hot2 votes

Akali has to be one of the healthiest. Yes she is point and click. Yes she does tons of damage. Yes she snowballs. Yes she sustains like a monster. But there are clear weaknesses, her only utility is countered by 75 gold, you usually know who she's going to jump on so anyone with cc on your team will blow her up. Yes if she builds tank shes harder to kill but also doesn't do as much damage. And last once she goes in, there is no turning back.

I think her biggest problem right now is her build path. Gunblade is WAY too good on her and it seems to keep getting buffed. Even the components that were changed was a HUGE buff to Akali (esp revolver).

Zakith1 votes

I think that she is very unhealthy. The biggest issue being that all she can really bring is damage, and there really isn't counterplay other than have more damage than she can handle or CC her. In either one of these cases, the Akali feels useless. Unlike Zed or Riot's current definition of a healthy assassin, she is all or nothing. Blow 'em up without anything they could do or be pretty much pointless.

LankPants2 votes

There isn't a healthy assassin in the game currently. They're honestly all pretty terrible and the very concept of an assassin is horrible from a gameplay perspective. A champion who kills you more quickly than you can react will never be healthy and Riot has even hinted at this, their method of making assassins more healthy is to make them less like assassin, reducing their burst and giving them options other than just bursting targets.

If I had to grade them from most healthy to least healthy I'd say it would be something like

Shaco >Khazix > Akali >Talon > Kassadin >Zed >Ekko >Leblanc >Katarina >Fizz >Rengar

I don't think any of these champs are well designed, the ones nearer the top are just less hellish to play against than the ones nearer the bottom. I didn't include Eve/Diana/Noct because I don't believe that they'll be part of the assassin updates.

SwiftKitten882 votes

although ironically the nerfs to her have made her LESS healthy, i think Nidalee is the healthiest. or at least she was before the most recent pounce nerf... i like how she could spear you but unless she pounced into to melee range (where it is really unsafe for her to be) she really couldn't do much and unlike EVERY other assassin she needs to land a skillshot to go in, this gives her more counterplay than ANY other assasin. becuase unless she is CRAZY fed, she cant fight you unless hunted is proced on you.. and she also wont be able to do a long range pounce on you unless hunted is proced. and BEFORE the most recent nerf she was able to get in and get out and while she would take a lot of damage most of the time she would normally only be in melee range for 1- 2 second unless some sort of CC hit her. (which would mean instant dead kitty)

the problem now and why i think she is LESS healthy now is BECAUSE pounce was gutted until she hits lvl 16. until that point instead of having 1 or 2 second where she is stuck in melee range.. she is stuck in melee range for 4 seconds at low ranks at 2-3 second at around lvl 11. if nid was tankier this really wouldn't be much of an issue.

but right now it pretty much FORCES her just throw spears all day.. because unless she is already really far ahead, or your alone with any form of cc she cant really pounce in and not get murdered anymore. now because its soo unsafe to go in you just see her sitting back and throwing spears like she was pre-rework; and when ALL she does is sit back and throw spears.. she isn't healthy anymore.. becuase there really is no counterplay to someone throwing spears at you like that forever. even if it does take a full second to channel and go max distance (.25 secondchannel and .77 second time to max range). Yet even if she DOES throw spears at you all day. despite the fact that you cant really stop her. you can STILL easily dodge it. ( i mean the entire .25 second human reaction time for seeing her throw the spear is taken up by her channel, so as long as you SEE her channel you still have .77 seconds to dodge a max range spear)

so now you either need to get an earlyitem 3157 to make up for those extra 2 second your stuck in melee range without an escape, use the active every time and hope to god your team engages after you so u can get out when its over. which isn't HORRIBLE but really isn't ideal

or you need to get items likeitem 3040 or 2-3 ocean and a blue drags so you CAN throw spears all day, and this still is a pretty unhealthy style to play nid in. It's no fun to play against.. and i can certainly say it is MUCH less fun to play AS, which i why i opt for the item 3157 route

im note sure if i would demote her to second place or not after the nerf...

either way the 2nd place (or first place if i do demote Nidalee to 2nd place

would beKhazix

he is a VERY well designed champ crazy powerful 1v1 once he reaches lvl 6. can easily snowball if you give him any sort of lead. CRAZY good with certain items, and has MANY build paths based on what your team needs.

idk exactly how to describe him. his isolation mechanic is his greatest strength but also his greatest weakness.

your almost never goign to lose a 1v1 at equal gold if you can get in range vs a solo player out in the open. and yet in a 2v2 unless you can separate or kill one, (which CAN be done if they are at low hp and you kill them before taking too much damage giving you the isolation in the 2nd enemy). but without that isolation bonus.. your really not that strong

plus i like the fact that he HAS the ability to reset his leap but ONLY if he gets a kill or assist. I'm not sure how i feel about it requiring an evolution for the reset when its pretty much identical toTristana rocket jump who always has the reset. but if it didn't then no one would ever evolve it, so idk.

these are the types of counterplay i like to see in assassins

not riots crazy idea of you have .5 second to react to Zed R and you can hopefully dash into a turret range turn around AND cc him. (.25 seconds, aka HALF of that being the base human reaction time to visual stimuli)

OR your forced to builditem 3157 which you will NEVER finish before he reaches 6 gives you ZERO mana/regen and now the cooldown is longer than his ultimate so once you use it he wait for his next ulti to kill you before its up unless you run like a scare little kitty and never get within 2 screens of him whileitem 3157 is down... let alone try to use it's active for any OTHER champion on their team

Critmaster Garen1 votes

imo Katarina

mainly due to her fact that she has clear counterplay to her main assassination tool. also, high risk/high reward. if she fails her assassination attempt, she is denied her escape, as shunpo doesnt reset.

if she manages to kill her target, she can keep rolling.

meanwhile Leblanc doesnt fuckign care if she kills you from a distance or not. she just hits w and tries again later.

Ralanr1 votes

The downside to Kat's counterplay is that it's honestly too healthy (though a fed Kat is still frustrating as fuck). Just like Sion, her weaknesses are too obvious and too easy to play around.

She's too much of a risk to actually play when other assassins can get the same if not better results for less work.

Rather than bump assassins to her level or bump her to theirs, I think they should make a middle ground.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

The downside to Kat's counterplay is that it's honestly too healthy (though a fed Kat is still frustrating as fuck). Just like Sion, her weaknesses are too obvious and too easy to play around.

She's too much of a risk to actually play when other assassins can get the same if not better results for less work.

Rather than bump assassins to her level or bump her to theirs, I think they should make a middle ground.

i dont know. i just think more assassins should have their mobility restricted like that.

for example it doesnt make much of a difference for fizz or zed if they actually manage to kill their target. zed can still hit the return button, fizz can zonya and then troll pole away.

Ralanr1 votes

Oh that. Yeah I can agree with that.

Zakith9 votes

I actually think Kat is one of the most unhealthy. If she can kill you, she does so instantly, nothing you could do. If she can't, then she's useless. Beyond that, she really doesn't bring anything else to the table besides "kill everyone."

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Beyond that, she really doesn't bring anything else to the table besides "kill everyone."

what else is an assassin supposed to bring to the table?

other than that, shes pretty reliant on her ult to assassinate an opponent. and that thing has a decent channel time.

the aoe damage on her ult is actually also a means of counterplay. it diminishes her assassination potential when your team is grouped up and a tank is soaking part of the damage, over her target being isolated and eating all of it.

Zakith1 votes

An assassin should bring something more than just "kill 'em" to the game, or else there will be only a few assassins who are good. Everyone else would be "ok but not as good as __." I think Eve is the most healthy assassin because she brings pressure with her passive instead of just "kill 'em." She can be a little sub-par on the assassination side and still be worth picking in the right situation.

LankPants1 votes

the aoe damage on her ult is actually also a means of counterplay. it diminishes her assassination potential when your team is grouped up and a tank is soaking part of the damage, over her target being isolated and eating all of it.

Kat's ult doesn't work that way. It throws up to 3 daggers at a time, if she only has a single target it throws one, if she has 3 it throws 3. The DPS goes up the more targets who are tanking the ability, you can't soak it for carries.

Astôlfo1 votes

Eh, almost all of them are healthy.

Lugg1 votes

I agree with your take on Eve. She functions exactly as an assassin should. She comes in from the flank, takes someone out, and runs away. She carries hard early and mid if played right, and falls off late game. This is why she is a great assassin champion IMHO.

Blumpkin Nation1 votes

I don't know. I had an Eve in one of my games that was just shredding people because they couldn't keep vision on her. I think stealth is not balanced right now. Not that it's broken or OP, but just not balanced.

I'd have to say there is no healthy assassin. Most of them require hideous amounts of CC to kill them or prevent them from engaging. But if I had to pick one, I'd probably say Talon. He's the only one who is predictable in the sense that he has to work for his kills.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blumpkin Nation,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LgXssQ0K,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-07-11T18:57:00.885+0000)

I don't know. I had an Eve in one of my games that was just shredding people because they couldn't keep vision on her. I think stealth is not balanced right now.

stealth has never been really balanced. and perma stealth not at all.

WzqdQsZwQA1 votes

[deleted]

Shaydrox1 votes

That's true, but she's supposed to feel like an assassin, thus she's getting some serious work probably ^^

warpenguin5551 votes

not as a part of the assassin update. shes on the vgu list

Zakith2 votes

I thought they said she was getting both?

warpenguin5551 votes

probably only minor stuff like swain(also on the list)

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

I think Zed actually is the healthiest. His biggest problem though is the fact that he is frustrating as hell to play against. His "whoops teleport away lawl!" should be fixed a bit so that if he makes a mistake then he's in trouble. His passive may need to be changed so he doesn't last hit easily. Other than that he is actually pretty balanced. As for what he brings to the team is the fact that he has great team disengage and good catch the enemy with W and E. His burst can be denied and he is pretty telegraphing for an assassin ninja. Also knowing who he can only kill (marksman) is helpful.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I think kah has potential - if his isolation dmaage goes down and his non isolation goes slightly upt and if you couldn't remove his ult from the game for 75g.

But right now, he's preitty binary. Find isolated target -> close in from huge range for point n cliick instagib. Don't find a isolated target -> be usless as you can't burst anyone down and your only tool for survival is easily hardcountered.

Also, there is MonkeyKing . I know he usually isn't commonly seen as asassin, but for me he has playpatterns(if built as assasin and not bas bruiser) that imo are how a healthy assasin should work. He has decent burst on e+aa+q, but only enough for ~40-60% unless **really **fed, he has a disengage and can play a hit n run game, he has some dps to finish of targets that survive his combo with little hp, but no enough to really shred them 100-0, he can improve his target selection at the cost of his disengage. He has enough survivabillity to not randomly die to aoe in a teamfight even if built agressive, but not enough to withstand focus. The only issue is that his ult offers a bit much all-in potential if he only gets the slightest lead vs squishys, often killing befor the knockup wears off, offering next to no counterplay. If the damage of his ult was more backloaded(less starting damage, but damage increases per tick), assasin wu would be a great example for a healthy assasin. The Hit n run allows to have options even if you can't just straight kill a target, and the shred on q+his ult offer enough utillity to help the team even if behind.

Also, i think Zed has the potential to be healthy, but his laneing phase needs some changes and he reaches the point where he can kill squishys with little to no effort to easily. Once he has a lead, R-ee-pointblank q-aa is enough, he doesn't need to stick to the target afterwards, most of the time not even land the shadow shuriken, his entire killcombo can be performed in +0.5 sec and then he can escape with his panic button. Honestly, they should return the 1sec delay on his ult recast, so you have time to punish him if he chooses the wrong time to engage without haveing instant hard cc next to his victim. Something that could/should be done for LB aswell. I think it's important for assasins to have a way out of the fight again, but there should also be an window to punish them, and Zed aswell as LB don't really give that window. And for what zed offers outside of killing people: Poke, aoe damage, aoe slow, aoe armorshred with bc, and good cleanup even if behind thx to the execute on his passive. He might not be able to kill his target, but he can deal alot damge to it and get away, allowing him to contributr from a rather save range with shadows and evt clean up some kills with his mobillity and execute.

I think eve also has potential - if her passive wouldn't make her inherently broken as jungler causeing her to be overall weak to cpompensate that. I think her passive should work on wards as on champions - reduce their vision range vs her but not completly blind them. Aditionally, the vision reduction could scale with rank, so you can see her from farther away early in the game and she can sneak in closer later on, so she has her passive to find flanks in teamfights, but her ganks early on arent as absurd. And i want her old W back, i really, really miss the flat ms buff...

Zakith1 votes

"Just to help give you guys a better idea of the pool of champions we're talking about, here's a list of Assassins we are currently considering as candidates:

Akali Ekko Evelynn Fizz Kassadin Katarina Kha'Zix LeBlanc Rengar Shaco Talon Zed Note that this is not a guarantee that any specific champion will get changes - we're still exploring which champions will best fit this update."

-Statikk, Riot Dev

Thought I'd bring this here for anyone who's thinking about reworks and changes and who we are talking about for "healthy assassins." I guess Riot thinks of the others as divers?

QjTHqo3RTq1 votes

imo eve is constantly stealth, this has made her so very, very unhealthy

Quepha1 votes

She's not an assassin at all right now, not even close.

QweraRandolphz1 votes

Definitely kass - at least as an adc main its really hard for us to counterbuild ad assassins, which lets them easily duel us


Poll: http://www.pvpdatabase.com/?p=1090

Lord Desert1 votes

I think Irelia is the healtiest "assassin", if you can even say that. Why? only single targetburst, no poke so ether go balls deep or go home(aka the fountain), weak early, hard spike in mid and with t3f, meh late, can beat anyone BUT can be beaten by anyone too! Has alot of counterplay and no" jump from half across the map to kill you and reset back".

RagingRocket1 votes

The only thing that makes assassin unhealthy in my opinion is their utility but if we removed that they will become melee range carries(with the exception of a few).Lets talk about nidalee for example,a true terror on her prime able to one shot everyone every second her q was up now she can't do that and needs mechanical proes to kill her target.The most healthier assassins have less utility and clearer counter play like katarina.Katarina has clear counter play and has a big pontetional to fail unlike a lot assassinsLeblanc Khazix Rengar Fizz Talon and i am sick seeing assassins that can not be punished for their mistakes like zed.If Zed fails he can w or r back to safety like nothing happens and don't get me started on how easy is for him to r(makes himself invurnable and get close to his target while applying a mark)e(for dmg)aa(to apply his dusk blade effect and make usage of his passive)and r back to safety like nothing happend.Where is the counter play to that?qqs?Oh wait they nerfed it intetionally so it can not remove zed's ultimate.So if you are the adc there is no option any more is it there?And the worst thing of them all is Khazix .He is a hybrid of katarina and tons of ad dmg with a mix of utility.He has resets can go invisible and can jump around like a maniac,he has the huge package and that is without mentioning his cooldowns.3 seconds on q 9 on w 12 with e which can reset and 80 on something that can make him go invisible for 1 second while giving him 40% movement speed twice and if he buys max cdr ohhh boy you are in for some bad time.So lets say we are 70 mins in the game can anyone tell me of a actual counter play i could use against Akali Rengar Khazix Zed Leblanc Fizz Shaco Talon ?

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