Is Heimerdinger retired?

Giovarco·Dec 28, 2014·3 votes·1,029 views

Now there's Azir who can do his job better. What do you think?

22 Comments

disregardableDec 28, 20143 votes

Heimer is a counterpick. You take him against champions that tend to dive. LeBlanc, Zed, Fiora, Akali, Katarina, Fizz, Kassadin. They can't farm while you're alive, and they can't kill you.

Kowe The EwokDec 28, 20142 votes

You just created a list of champion Heimer does NOT work well against, lol.

Blanc, Zed, Akali and Kat (the other two too) are all far to mobile to be caught and can wreck his towers in an instant basically no cost (the other two to a lesser amount).

Especially Fiora with her double dash welcomes his turrets as a 1HKO'able bridge to jump him. Not to mention Kat whose daggers will always hit his turrets while they're at an impactful position in lane. (Impactful meaning: You can place your turrets far on the outside - but they'll always be hit by daggers bouncing from your own minions. Any position which is far away enough to not be "bridged" by minions at the same time is too far away to overall influence the laning phase itself)

disregardableDec 28, 20141 votes

You just wait for them to dive you. Seriously. You don't need to catch them. They will take damage if they try to to take your turrets down. They'll back off. They'll ping their jungler. They'll try to 2v1 you. You ult+turret and stay in the middle of 4 dangerous turrets while they dive you. You'll get a double kill. You may or may not die, but it won't matter. You're already more fed than your opponent. Meaning next time they try it, you won't die.

Seriously, I go like 8/1 every time I play Heimer. Because I only play him against Assassins.

Kowe The EwokDec 29, 20141 votes

Assuming your enemies are Wood 7 ELO (And relying on it) is neither a valid strategy nor does it proof of wether a champion is balanced.

disregardableDec 29, 20141 votes

What else are they going to do? As long as you're alive, you replace the turrets. The only way to kill you is to dive you. I don't see what other strategy there is rofl.

Kowe The EwokDec 29, 20142 votes

Did you notice the cooldown on the turrets?....

A Syndra Q can 1HKO them and has 1/6th of the CD...

It's God damn easy to clear the turrets and Heimerdinger afterwards.

disregardableDec 29, 20141 votes

Sure, and that's why you play Heimer against Akali/Fizz/Kass, etc and not Syndra.

Kowe The EwokDec 29, 20141 votes

Sidenote: Being a champion that must only be picked as a lastpick because he gets 100% countered othewise is no valid choice.

1.) Akali can use her invibility to get to the turrets and 1HKO them with Q. Her invisibility has a lower CD than Heimerdinger's turrets. At level 6 Akali can simply kill Heimderinger.

2.) Kassadin has a shield. He can easily Q a turret, kill it without loosing a point of health and use W against Heimderinger. Post 6 Kassa simply R (W) on them anyways.

3.) Fizz can use his E or to get to Heimderinger's turrets unharmed and kill them with a single auto attack. He might eat a single hit while doing so. Afterwards he can use the other of the 2 abilities to jump on heimder and take 1/3 of his health with a single ability+ auto attack due to his insane damage and the fact that Heimer isn't only escapeless but also one of the squishiest champions ingame.

disregardableDec 29, 20141 votes

RE Sidenote: If that was true, 100 champions would not be valid choices. I mean there are plenty of people that argue for that, but I don't think being a niche is a bad thing. :)

As for everything else you said, none of it is true unless the enemy laner is already 2 levels above you with a kill. Yup. I have no idea why you think the turrets are so weak, but you clearly haven't played against heimer in a while. They take 2 or 3 Akali/Kass Qs and at least 3 Fizz autos, lol.

Kowe The EwokDec 29, 20141 votes

Then my friend you need to learn how to lasthit ;) Because with average farm the do die that easily.

P.S. you can even do it at level 1 without any farm and incompletel runes.

Edit, cause maths:

Akali Q = 80 +0.9 AP Akali base AD = 56

Damage before resistences = 136+0.9AP

(Runes may differ wether you're trying to activate her passive early or want more lategame damage. I'll assume hybrid runes)

8.1 Arpen 5.6 Mpen

Heimerdinger turret: 125 + 25 + (5% AP) = 150 +0.05 AP Armor: 10 MR: 25 Assuming 41 AP (15 from AP quints, 6 from masteries, 20 from Tome (15 if Doran's))

That's 152 health

Physical damage = 100/(100+10-8.1)*56 = 55

Magical damage = 100/(100+25-5.6)(80+0.9(15+6+20)) = 98

(15 from AP quints, 6 from masteries, 20 from Tome (15 if Doran's))

98 +55 = 153 damage

So 153 damage AFTER resistances against a 152 hp target.

So yes, his turrets die by one procced Q (6s CD Akali vs 24s CD Heimerdinger ).

This math was done without considering that Akali's usually have AP blues as well to trigger their passive.

So even with a suboptimal rune build Akali will 1HKO Heimer's turrets.

You, sir are wrong.

disregardableDec 29, 20141 votes

You mean if the Akali does exactly what you want her to do and dives into your minions and turrets? Sure, she CAN do it 3 times before I can regenerate another turret, and then she can back because she easily just lost half her health at level 1.

I was assuming a rational Akali that did not use the AA proc.

Kowe The EwokDec 29, 20141 votes

You are assuming a stupid Akali. Charged towers can't hit you when you are moving in a vertical angle, no further dodging skill required. You can 100% avoid the charged shot (that's when you go in).

P.S. Heimerdinger's turrets deal 12+0.15 AP = 17 damage. Before resistences. Assuming a normal mage build he has 7.8 Mpen.

Akali has 32.1 MR at level 1. (if we now take the blue runes into account which I didn't distribute above) that's 44 MR.

Making a turret deal 100/ (100+44.1-7.8)*17 = 12 damage per shot.

Akali has 588 base health.

I really want to know how she "looses half of her health".

I forgot... You are assuming Wood 7 Elo...

disregardableDec 29, 20141 votes

Frankly I doubt it's possible to not get hit by a single charged shot when the turrets are placed in a pyramid with you in the center, but okay. We'll assume you magically don't get hit by one.

The 44 MR is a 30% damage reduction. 17 * .3 = 5.1 , 17 - 5.1 =11.9 11.9 damage x 3 turrets x 3 attacks in the time it takes her to kill it=107 damage to akali

Akali's base armor is 26.4, giving her a 20% damage reduction. Heimerdinger's base damage is 56.

56 * .2 = 11.2, 56-11.2=44.8 damage per AA I'd assume you'd only be able to land a single attack, because his AS is so slow.

There's 150 damage. Now let's assume Akali gets attacked by the 3 caster minions in the back (because she couldn't kill them and I was clearing her minions before they got to them).

Their base attack damage is 23, meaning they do 18.4 damage to Akali. Times three, that's 55 damage.

There's 200 damage just to clear the first turret while I'm still full health.

Unfortunately for Akali though, Heimerdinger was not stupid. He came to lane early to set up his turrets, meaning by 30 seconds into the laning phase he can instantly replace it. Meaning she has to take 200 more damage to actually leave him with 2 turrets. That's actually 2/3rds of her health. Bye Akali.

Kowe The EwokDec 29, 20141 votes

**You are assuming that Heimderinger has permanent 3 towers up. How? When was he granted the 1minute 12s or 1minute 9s to do so? ** Again: Assuming Wood 7 ELO enemies is no valid excuse.

If you place them 1 by one they get destroyed as described as above.

Skill level 1 & 2 require 24 or 23s between casts while your turrets have to survive in order to produce your scenario.

You need at least skill level 3 to place 2 turrets at once. Or skill level 5 to place 3 turrets at once.

Now consider that "charging" a stack also takes 22s at skill level 3 (means: you have to wait 44s for both).

Since you have been maxing Q your other abilities are low damage in addition to their high cooldown. While you are waiting 75% of a minute for your stacks to gather your enemy already has free farm and free poke.

And even after you placed both turrets this lost lane doesn't suddenly turn into a won one. It simply means your opponent has to take them out.

If we stick with the Akali example that'ld mean R+Q on tower 1. R + E or W+Q (Q cooldown is at 4,5s at this point) on tower 2.

If you're placing your turrets fast in a row in order to avoid getting them cleaned instantly there's a good chance Akali still is in range to hit both with E (which has a 350 radius. meaning turrets have to be 700 units away from each other)

I appreciate your effort to defend Heimderdinger. But sadly he is in a horrible spot right now. Even more saddening is that low ELO keeps him from getting buffed to a decent state.

disregardableDec 29, 20141 votes

How? There's like 90 seconds from when you can leave base to when lanes spawn, that's how, and his Q starts with a turret.

You will have 3 turrets in your lane before minions get there.

Kowe The EwokDec 28, 20142 votes

Heimerdinger is fun to play, but he gets detroyed by anybody above silver. Well, if you are lastpick and have a shitton of experience with Heimerdinger, can counterpick your lane AND have a huge load of CC on your allies you can make him work in higher Elo as well. - But let's be honest, even if you can make him work: There are far better picks.

His cooldowns are a joke.

24s for turrets which die by a single 4s CD spell?
11s for a spell which gets blocked by creeps, is delayed and only deals damage in a VERY specific and small area?
18s CD for what possibly is the slowest travelling skillshot in game and has horrificly low damage?

Heimerdinger is outdated. He needs a lot of significant buffs if he ever wants to be competitive. Sadly low ELO can't rightclick unmoveable turrets. Thus he's doomed to stay underpowered, or else he might dominate Bronze V to Silver IV which Riot sure won't let happen.

Ale non è maleDec 29, 20141 votes

ZZ'Rot Portal is coming. Heimer is going to become unkillable soon...

Kowe The EwokDec 29, 20141 votes

Congrats. 3k gold for not a single point of AP. You'll neither deal damage to push or defend your towers or gate, nor will you will you be able to do a tanks job.

Ale non è maleDec 29, 20141 votes

Heimer right now can't push at all in lane because he is forced to stay near his turrets to not be wiped out in half a second. And given that he can't move fast his turrets to advance because of their CD, all he can do now is try to zone enemies hoping that their assassins aren't powerful enough to istantly kill him despite receiving damage from turrets or that the enemies doesn't have ways to destroy his turrets safely and fast (thus remaining remaining without defenses), advancing meanwhile very very slowly in the lane to remain safe With this item, he can keep zoning enemies like he does now, AND send the Voidlings to push tower down while staying in a safe zone. Even if now in PBE ZZ'Rot portal doesn't give anymore AP like it did before (where it would have been utterly broken on Heimer, Galio, etc...), it still remains an item that greatly helps him. And let's not forget that his passive help the Voidlings from ZZ'Rot Portal to survive for longer and cover longer distances than what would happen on other champs

BottleCapsterJan 5, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LNXXMgBy,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2014-12-29T12:18:31.259+0000)

Congrats. 3k gold for not a single point of AP. You'll neither deal damage to push or defend your towers or gate, nor will you will you be able to do a tanks job.

Intriguingly enough, Heimerdinger gains pretty much everything he could want beside damage from the Portals. more push, defensive stats, regen, and movespeed whilst in his nest. And a nifty passive that gets him to lane faster? Heimer's gonna have a field day with this item.

UndeZyrableeDec 28, 20141 votes

Omg f**k Heimer's ability to push all the way to my tower and stay there for 30 minutes while my jungler ignores me. - My latest game as LaBlanc vs Heimer

Edit: And in reply to below, I out cs'd him even under tower. Yeah he was probably not the best heimer in the world, but he can't kill LaBlanc. He has to be just as careful as she does. Me during the game: "Step away from those turrets mother f**ker. I dare you."