@RiotRepertoir, I think you're on the right track with Skarner, however...

Cupkek··13 votes·8,149 views

I'm happy to see that Skarner is getting some love in this next upcoming patch. Most of these changes will make him a more reliable and effective skirmishing... scorpion... thing...

Frankly I'm happy to see most of these changes. The one thing that was holding me back from playing Skarner frequently was the fact that, in his current state, he's a sub-optimal jungler and his cc is reliant on his ability to stick to a target for extended periods of time.

The on-hit stun being moved to his E was a brilliant way to make his gank potential far more effective without making him overbearing. His CC is reliant on a slow moving skillshot rather than having to get off 3 abilities and a clunky auto attack within close proximity to an enemy champion, so kudos to you buddy!

My only concern is:

The crystal capturing mechanic is... less than appealing. From what it seems like, it limits Skarner to jungling exclusively. On top of this, crystal locations are set and static, making them easy targets for enemy players. While I'm sure this is intended, it seems to be a hindrance for the Skarner player. Assuming they're jungling, it adds another thing to his "Sh!t to do" list on top of ganking, farming, holding a lane, etc.

In a game where 4v5 or mega-feeding situations run rampant, I feel like the crystal-hunting aspect of Skarner would hurt him more than it would help him. Or at the very least become a noob-trap priority that leaves laners without ganks and Skarner running around the jungle counting his rocks and trying to bait fights in his crystal zones, which is easier said than done, only to have them stolen mid-fight.

Proposed change:

**Current: ** _Skarner’s presence causes crystals to spawn in set locations around the map. Crystals can be captured by either team by standing on top of them. Capturing prevents them from being captured by the opposing team for 15 seconds.

_ Revised: _Skarner's presence causes crystals to spawn in the jungle near random jungle camps around Skarner's team's side of the map. Crystals can be captured by either team by standing on top of them. Capturing prevents them from being captured by the opposing team for 15 seconds. Crystals will despawn 1 minute after their corresponding camp's 'big' monster has been slain and a new crystal will spawn elsewhere. Up to 2 crystals may be active at once. _

The goal with this revision is to encourage Skarner to hunt crystals and vary his jungle pattern from the stale Krugs>Red>Chickens or Gromp>Blue>Red/Wolves route. This provides Skarner a potential reprieve from counter-junglers predicting his route while also granting more aggressive junglers (Pantheon go geddem buddy!) the opportunity to snag a crystal, find out where he is, and bludgeon him to death in his own jungle.

TL;DR Skarner's passive is lackluster and is a bunch of extra work for sub-par reward. I'd like it to be a bit more focused on his jungle, opening up opportunity for him to vary his jungle route while still offering enemies the opportunity to slow/stop his roll.

Thanks for taking the time to read (if you did), I'd love feedback on this to hear what people think :)

Aegis of Zeonia

37 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir16 votes

Hi Aegis of Zeonia, thanks for the thoughts on Skarner. I'll get right to your main feedback:

TL;DR Skarner's passive is lackluster and is a bunch of extra work for sub-par reward. I'd like it to be a bit more focused on his jungle, opening up opportunity for him to vary his jungle route while still offering enemies the opportunity to slow/stop his roll.

About it being lackluster, that's certainly not the intention. If the reward just isn't there, that is something that can be easily addressed. If it's that they're tedious, maybe the channel time is too long or some of them are just too far out of the way to be useful.

As per your suggestion, one of the things I actually think is really important to them is their static positions. It gives Skarner players, teammates, and opponents an expectation as to how they're going to play about them in any given game. This is important to me because, even following these changes, we aren't aiming to have Skarner be extremely popular and in every game. We're okay with his niche appeal, and we just wanted to give a little more uniqueness to the games he's in, as well as another point of mastery for Skarner players. Whether good or bad, his ultimate really isn't that unique anymore, and it can't really be made much more powerful, so we looked elsewhere.

I think another thing that seems tedious about them is that players feel like they should be trying to control them all whenever possible, and that's really not the intention. Played optimally, Skarner should try to control the ones he thinks he'll need in the next minute or two, or maybe stop to cap one over when he's nearby. There's no bonus for holding all of them, so I don't really want Skarner players making the choice to go activate a crystal in the enemy jungle when there's a lane that needs ganking or something, unless maybe taking that crystal helps them steal a buff or do some counterjungling.

I hope this helps to explain some of the reasoning behind the goals for his passive, even if it's not exactly what you wanted to hear.

As a follow-up, if you want to continue to help me understand what makes them 'lackluster and a bunch of extra work for a sub-par reward,' I'm happy to talk about it. Though some things are probably set in stone for the upcoming patch, that doesn't mean everything is, and it doesn't mean that I won't be doing follow-up work on Skarner if he falls short in unintended areas.

Arcane Azmadi2 votes

I see you still think the stupid fucking stationary crystals are a good idea.

There is no hope. Skarner is finished.

so chad4 votes

{quoted}

As a follow-up, if you want to continue to help me understand what makes them 'lackluster and a bunch of extra work for a sub-par reward,' I'm happy to talk about it. Though some things are probably set in stone for the upcoming patch, that doesn't mean everything is, and it doesn't mean that I won't be doing follow-up work on Skarner if he falls short in unintended areas.

You may truly believe you will follow up on Skarner, but in case you haven't paid attention to champion reworks you will NOT. Meddler or whoever is in charge will move you on to the next, players will direct their hatred towards you, and then the guy in charge will pop on the forums and give some lame excuse about how its not your fault and we, the players, can ask them about setting priorities. That is why you have to get the reworks done right on the first try.

RiotRiotRepertoir14 votes

Yeah, that's not really how I work, but I'm sorry if that's been your experience in the past. The lasting effect that changes have on a champion I work on is very important to me.

We may not necessarily agree about exactly what should be done for him, but to say I won't follow up just isn't accurate.

so chad6 votes

I dont think you understood my post. Stashu also assured us, over and over, that he would follow up with Cassiopeia. I honestly believe that was his intention. He got pulled over to the Fiora team.

Are you your own manager? Is there a reason to believe you won't get called to a higher priority project? It isn't about how you work.

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

I think you bring up an important and accurate observation, and while i disagree with the tone of your post I hope that RiotRepertoir will pass your comments around the office for other rioters to consider.

+1

RiotRiotRepertoir17 votes

I am not my own manager, but I also do think I am capable of making positive change with the right effort and focus. You guys probably remember that Ashe got an update earlier this year? That was just an extra thing that I picked up on the side and then put together with the Champion Update team's help, and I think it went really well.

For me, I don't usually find that one project is enough to keep me occupied, so I like having follow-up or other stuff to work on on the side.

If a few months down the road, you think there's follow-up that I've ignored or forgotten, please do hold me accountable to at least letting you know what's up. Worst case, I'll hopefully just be able to let you guys know what's up, even if the decision isn't what you want to hear. Leaving you hanging wouldn't be cool, though.

Kobold3 votes

Can we have your word on a blood oath that you will do everything in your power and beyond to follow through on him?

RiotRiotRepertoir11 votes

I can promise I will follow up. I will not promise I will do exactly what the community demands.

Kobold4 votes

No problem I just didnt want the players of the champion to be shafted and ignored when asking about things cough Cassiopeia players cough

RiotRiotRepertoir4 votes

I hear ya

Crowe Stalker3 votes

And we, the Community, thank you for listening.

Archenz1 votes

Any ideas on what you would change as follow up if they turn out underpowered?

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

calm down Kalista he's trying his best to make Skarner not boring

Kobold1 votes

I am calm :/

I just wanted a promise that they will keep and not have the players shafted again.

Hellioning4 votes

But it might not be your decision.

Like, according to Meddler, Stashu was entirely willing to keep working on Cass but the people above him decided that a Fiora rework was a better use of his talents.

Cupkek3 votes

{quoted}

Hi Aegis of Zeonia, thanks for the thoughts on Skarner. I'll get right to your main feedback: Skarner's passive is lackluster and is a bunch of extra work for sub-par reward. I'd like it to be a bit more focused on his jungle, opening up opportunity for him to vary his jungle route while still offering enemies the opportunity to slow/stop his roll.

About it being lackluster, that's certainly not the intention. If the reward just isn't there, that is something that can be easily addressed. If it's that they're tedious, maybe the channel time is too long or some of them are just too far out of the way to be useful.

As per your suggestion, one of the things I actually think is really important to them is their static positions. It gives Skarner players, teammates, and opponents an expectation as to how they're going to play about them in any given game. This is important to me because, even following these changes, we aren't aiming to have Skarner be extremely popular and in every game. We're okay with his niche appeal, and we just wanted to give a little more uniqueness to the games he's in, as well as another point of mastery for Skarner players. Whether good or bad, his ultimate really isn't that unique anymore, and it can't really be made much more powerful, so we looked elsewhere.

I think another thing that seems tedious about them is that players feel like they should be trying to control them all whenever possible, and that's really not the intention. Played optimally, Skarner should try to control the ones he thinks he'll need in the next minute or two, or maybe stop to cap one over when he's nearby. There's no bonus for holding all of them, so I don't really want Skarner players making the choice to go activate a crystal in the enemy jungle when there's a lane that needs ganking or something, unless maybe taking that crystal helps them steal a buff or do some counterjungling.

I hope this helps to explain some of the reasoning behind the goals for his passive, even if it's not exactly what you wanted to hear.

As a follow-up, if you want to continue to help me understand what makes them 'lackluster and a bunch of extra work for a sub-par reward,' I'm happy to talk about it. Though some things are probably set in stone for the upcoming patch, that doesn't mean everything is, and it doesn't mean that I won't be doing follow-up work on Skarner if he falls short in unintended areas.

Thanks RiotRepertoir, I appreciate the time you've taken to answer and explain the thought process behind Skarner's crystals :)

I'm happy to hear that the goal wasn't to make Skarner viable or favored in every circumstance imaginable.

While I can definitely see the appeal of having static crystals at places such as Dragon or Baron, I don't see what good having crystals in the enemy jungle will do. Unless you're planning to predict, invade and center a fight around the crystal in the enemy jungle, and I can think of a few junglers who can invade far more reliably, I don't see it being a boon to Skarner. In fact, I see it more as 30 free gold to the enemy jungler.

The tedious aspect about the crystals is that they can be taken by the enemy, yielding that ** sigh grumble-grumble ** feeling when someone kills/jacks one of your wards/crystals and you feel compelled to reclaim it.

Another thing to consider is the OCD nature of a lot of League players (or online gamers in general). Some folks, myself included, will be sorely tempted to capture all 4 crystal points. Sure, it does nothing... BUT I'VE GOT ALL 4! The fact that there are multiple points, a few of which are in enemy territory, will cause plenty of players to wander into the enemy jungle just to secure those points, putting themselves at risk. Why? Because 1/4, 2/4, 3/4 just doesn't feel right. It's just the nature of the beast. Frankly I'm unsure as to how that could be avoided.

Perhaps keeping one (or two) crystal(s) activated on Skarner's side of the map would increase Skarner's gold generation or gold received from monster kills for a limited time? I believe it would counteract that OCD feeling of "MUST HAVE ALL THE KRISSLES" while allowing Skarner players to pick up crystals on the enemy jungle's side, should they care to go on the offensive. Virtually eliminating that 'need' to activate all 4. It would also incentivise counter junglers as well as the enemy team to make an effort to keep Skarner behind by keeping his crystals on his side in check.

Thoughts?

RiotRiotRepertoir10 votes

I can think of a few junglers who can invade far more reliably, I don't see it being a boon to Skarner. In fact, I see it more as 30 free gold to the enemy jungler.

The crystals on the enemy side of the map start on their team, and they can't get any gold from them unless they capture them. Technically, if you never went into the enemy jungle and left those crystals alone the whole game, they would never swap over to your team, and thus never present the chance for opponents to ever capture them for the small gold reward.

The tedious aspect about the crystals is that they can be taken by the enemy, yielding that sigh grumble-grumble feeling when someone kills/jacks one of your wards/crystals and you feel compelled to reclaim it.

I think that feeling of being compelled to reclaim it in all cases will go away after a few plays, and you'll just focus on the ones that are going to help you in the foreseeable future. Additionally, even in the case that someone takes a crystal from you, you do get information as to there whereabouts if you're paying attention, so it's not all a loss.

Perhaps keeping one (or two) crystal(s) activated on Skarner's side of the map would increase Skarner's gold generation or gold received from monster kills for a limited time? I believe it would counteract that OCD feeling of "MUST HAVE ALL THE KRISSLES" while allowing Skarner players to pick up crystals on the enemy jungle's side, should they care to go on the offensive.

Some reward for having a certain number capped may be a cool idea. I'll think about that.

CrazedPorcupine5 votes

Would making it so having a specific combination of crystals give unique buffs be able to be done?

Like, Both blue buff crystals captured gives increased mana regen while in the fields,

Both red buff crystals captured gives skarner increased HP regen while in the fields,

Both of the crystals on your own side captured give increased jungle gold (+10% per jungle monster?)

both crystals on the enemy side jungle, increased damage to jungle monsters in the enemy jungle

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

that actually sounds pretty cool

Age of Oblivion1 votes

That seems too complicated for a passive minigame. Overloading it will cause a dilemma for the jungler who still needs to farm and gank - the point shouldn't be holding all the crystals, just the ones you need. I know everyone likes calling it a dominion passive, but that's pretty far off of how it will optimally play out.

Cupkek1 votes

{quoted}

The crystals on the enemy side of the map start on their team, and they can't get any gold from them unless they capture them. Technically, if you never went into the enemy jungle and left those crystals alone the whole game, they would never swap over to your team, and thus never present the chance for opponents to ever capture them for the small gold reward.

I think that feeling of being compelled to reclaim it in all cases will go away after a few plays, and you'll just focus on the ones that are going to help you in the foreseeable future. Additionally, even in the case that someone takes a crystal from you, you do get information as to there whereabouts if you're paying attention, so it's not all a loss.

Some reward for having a certain number capped may be a cool idea. I'll think about that.

I hadn't thought of that.

Alright, well you've eased most of my concerns.

Thanks for your time! :)

Nightmist Dark2 votes

{quoted}

Whether good or bad, his ultimate really isn't that unique anymore, and it can't really be made much more powerful, so we looked elsewhere.

-- R: Passive - while his R is on cool-down, he gains X% MS until the cool-down is off. -- R: Passive - while his R is on cool-down, he gains X% AS until the cool-down is off. -- R: Passive - while his R is on cool-down, he gains stats.

just to name a few possibilities to make his ult more unique than those with hooks and grabs in 10 sec CDs. Thresh Blitzcrank TahmKench

-- or we can buff his R from 1.75 to 2.0s -- or we can make the range of his ult larger. -- or we can lower the CD on his ult.

ToxycBanana1 votes

As for making his ult more unique, I've been giving it a little bit of thought. I was thinking along the lines of making it a short dash that impales any enemy champion he comes into contact with, like Hecarim's ult (except a much shorter range) so he has at least some mobility in his kit aside from the speed boost from his w and allows him to have more of a "Heck yeah I just did that!" factor in his kit other than just spamming Q and auto attacking until everybody dies or he dies killing everyone. It would also make the ult cd on live right now more reasonable.

Messaiga1 votes

I think the purpose that Skarner's crystal spires fufill aren't entirely understood just yet. On the surface it looks like a gimmick that is intended to gate his power (into very specific areas of the map). The general assumption is "Sure he may be strong in those zones, but outside of them he can be kited and killed easily.". I think what's not realized is how often teams fight over an objective (like dragon for example).

Looking deeper into it though, Skarner's passive doesn't gate his power as hard as most think and rather works as an anti-snowball mechanic for both Skarner and the enemy team. Skarner's Q on PBE is much weaker without AD early in the game, but the massive attack speed buff he receives from his passive while clearing his jungle counteracts this. As the match continues Skarner's Q becomes VERY strong (essentially he can use his Q much more often with a lower mana cost, and it inflicts even more damage than Skarner's Q on live). It breaks even at 135 AD (easily achievable if Warrior is purchased, which honestly is fairly strong on his PBE iteration). He really doesn't even require as much attack speed as his past iterations have (because of the lower base CD on Q as it ranks up).

I'd be hesitant to push more power into his passive at this point. The attack speed boost is massive (and the movement speed buff is about equivalent to a 25% MS increase). He also has huge mana sustain and very low mana costs (which removes his dependence on blue buff). When in a fight around baron or dragon Skarner's offense is HUGE. If there were any changes I'd think Skarner needs, it would be very few (and to name examples):

  • Standardize W's movement speed buff, instead of a ramp-up. Right now it's 0%/4%/8%/12%/16% + 16% over 3 seconds. To help him deal with kiting, remove the ramp-up mechanic and just have it as a static MS increase for as long as the shield is active (10%/14%/18%/22%/26% maybe).

  • Increase the time it takes for capturing a Crystal Spire. It's somewhat difficult to keep hold of a Crystal Spire (and respond to someone capturing it) because the channel is very short. If it took longer not only would it introduce more risks (capturing a spire alone could be a bad idea for Skarner) but it would add a safety net of sorts for Skarner in his own jungle (it would be difficult to take it from him before he makes his way over to the spire and beats you down).

I think Skarner has definitely received the correct changes in his kit (what with the damage and frequency of his Q, the massive shield on his W, and a slow + stun on his E). He'll be in a great spot hopefully. I'm excited mainly because his ganks should be stronger early, he shouldn't be dependent on snowballing, and he will actually deal damage late-game (compared to current Skarner).

Man, I wish other riot employees on the balance team interacted as much as you do.

Ironclad Dragon6 votes

I just whipped something up.


Skarner starts each game with an exclusive Crystal Arachia, which permanently occupies one of his item slots. Upon activation, Skarner plants a Crystal Spire which empowers him whenever he's near it. Skarner can retrieve the Crystal Spire to reduce the item's cooldown. Enemy champions can capture the Crystal Spire to briefly disable its effects and earn some gold.

AMYS GRAVE2 votes

Good idea.

What if the item slot was 5 or so (Skarner only) consumable items. Each one places one stone on the map permanently. That way Skarner could decide where his stones went and he doesn't sacrifice an item slot in the late game?

ToxycBanana2 votes

There'd have to be some sort of mediation of where he can place them so you don't get the troll skarners who just go "hurr durr" and place all 5 in one spot in the enemy jungle for them to endlessly farm gold from.

Zyorhist1 votes

or it could just replace his mechete but still be able to pick up the enchants

ToxycBanana2 votes

That's actually not a bad idea.

Ironclad Dragon2 votes

The way I present it though, doesn't bar Skarner from laning. He can lane with the item he chooses to. Aren't people saying it's unfair to force a champion to play one lane?

Jinx155 votes

I love skarner, and when I saw the first version of his revisions I freaked, I thought they would ruin skarner, and after the removal of his lore I was really afraid I might as well lose my favorite little pokemon, I mean skarner. The new changes from RiotRepertoir gave me hope, and if he made this change to skarner I would feel a lot better about the change and would feel it would add a lot more depth then the current one.

Icestar11861 votes

The loss of his lore really was a tragedy.

Voidgolem2 votes

I dislike the concept of having so much of skarner's power tied to places where fights will likely never happen (well, I guess fights do happen around dragon and baron, but you get what I mean)

But I'm certainly willing to see how things pan out when it all goes live.

Colgate Gator2 votes

This buff really breaks my heart.

I have a soft spot for Skarner, and in given situations I find him to be very strong.

That being said, I LOATHE "King of the hill" esque games, which is the main reason I don't play dominion, and that whole "get the rocks or the enemy will" gimmick sounds a lot like that, and I assume that Skarner will be subpar if I don't rush to activate them, sigh.

Espurr VI1 votes

Repertoir, I have some ideas for Skarner!

For his Spires, I truly feel that keeping your spires up should give some gold generation or maybe you get a small shield that increases in size while you're in the jungle that lasts until you enter and then exit a fight. This would slightly balance out the fact that the spires are near useless when you aren't in the jungle.

However, I do feel that the spires should affect the whole portion of the jungle you're currently in. if you take the Spire in the red section, you should receive the buff for the monsters in the red section. That includes, Raptors, Krugs, and Red itself. If you take the Spire near dragon, you get the buff while in that part of the river.

This might be a little overpowered, but it's some suggestions.

Fiel Nirvalen1 votes

I was wondering with these new spires, will the enemy team get vision of you capturing it, kind of in the same way as health shrines on howling or will the enemy team need sight of the shrine in order for them to know that it has been captured? I believe that they should require sight of the shrine to know if it has been taken or not otherwise it would give vital info to the enemy team as to where the jungler currently is.

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