Fixing Kha'zix in the new jungle (and other junglers)

synacksa·Dec 2, 2014·10 votes·2,104 views

So I've been thinking about Kha'zix (and other junglers) in the new jungle and his ability to sustain in the jungle. With the nerf to his cooldown on the W, it's made his sustain even worse and unless you're super good with melee kiting and animation canceling, you might not even get lvl 3 before you need to back to fountain.

I"m not too against the nerd to the cooldown of the W as kha'zix was basically being played as a poke champ. So how do we fix him then?

Currently he has increased damage on his W vs monsters. This is to help him with clears in the jungle. This 20% increased dmg vs monsters doesn't really translate to very much extra sustain however. He goes from getting 40 health back vs champs to 43 health vs jungle monsters.

My fix would to simply be to tweak the healing amount vs monsters. Currently it's a flat 50% of the dmg dealt. I would suggest tweaking that amount to say 65% vs monsters and then see where Kha'zix stands after that. This would mean he gets 65.4 health for rank 1 Void Spikes vs jungle monsters. Most camps you only get a single rotation of your W off (maybe 2 if you don't smite the buffs), especially with the longer cool down, so you're only really gaining 12.4 health over what you're getting now, which isn't a massive increase, but it could be just what he needs to be viable in the jungle again, without making him OP.

Other junglers that have fallen off could also be tweaked in the same manner to make them a little bit stronger in the jungle without making them totally OP when it comes to fights against other champs. Simply tweak their vs montsers dmg/life steal amounts. For instance, you could add a on-hit-heal of 40% for Evelynn's 'E' vs neutral monsters. Suddenly she can sustain in the jungle, but her power level vs other champions doesn't spike through the roof. She still has to manage her health because the heal isn't too much and if you choose to max Q first, the heal amount doesn't increase all that much while the jungle still gets harder. You could max E first, but then your main spam-able damage spell that you use for ganks won't be dealing as much damage.

Anyway, I just wanted to put this out there and see what peoples thoughts were on it.

23 Comments

SmokingPuffinDec 2, 20149 votes

It's not clear to me that Kha needs to be better early. He's still amazing late, and champions with clear strengths and weaknesses are good.

I think we should focus on buffing those junglers that clearly don't work right now, like say Evelynn and Sejuani.

bulletbearDec 2, 20141 votes

this is good point but at the moment Kha just cant survive in the jungle early game. The only thing keeping him in the Meta right now is his late game power.

Gaara 0f SandDec 2, 20141 votes

Wasn't that one of the reasons for the jungle changes? Assassins still have good ganks, they just are forced to gank later in the game?

synacksaDec 2, 20145 votes

Kha'zix is still good late game, but it's almost impossible for him to get there. A good jungler will just see which buff you start and kill you at your second buff because you are so low. When that happens it's almost impossible for you to come back in the new jungle, especially if their jungler just keeps coming back. You lose all ability to pressure lanes and your ability to duel the other jungler in your or their jungle completely disappears.

The changes I've recommended changes that, he gets a small amount of extra sustain, which means he's suddenly not going to be god like in the early jungle, it just means he's not going to be the auto kill he currently is. Of course if the extra sustain is too much, then nerf it down a bit. The numbers can be tweaked because you don't want to make any champ too strong and you still want that early game weakness to be there, but a early game weakness shouldn't mean that a champ is completely unplayable.

SmokingPuffinDec 2, 20141 votes

I would suggest trying not to do double buff starts. Starting gromp blue wolves, then basing to get Red and gank seems his best general purpose route today.

I think being weak to early invades is a perfectly reasonable weakness for such a strong late game champion. Compare Amumu.

Maybe Kha'Zix does need buffs, but that isn't obvious like it is with Eve so let's wait for higher priority changes.

AbominateDec 2, 20143 votes

Kha is just fine right now.

He has moderate clear after first back (most junglers struggle on the first clear) He also still has a strong ganking power

While I see the point you are making, you go far into the issues of kha when he was one of the junglers who didn't get hit by a truck with the new jungle (im looking at you hecarim)

Enby TrsdppyDec 3, 20141 votes

i very much agree. i suppose if they wanted to make his first clear better within reason, i'd give the heal on void spikes maybe a 5-10HP buff tops. anymore than that would be too much. also i dont like the level of nerf the hit rammus with. it was excessive. i used to love him but now i cant work with him anymore

bulletbearDec 2, 20142 votes

As Kha'Zix main I agree with you, I can just barely clear red buff without dying before I need to recall. His sustain could uses some tweaking. I like the idea of changing champions individual sustain against monsters that way it doesn't just push their power through the roof against other champions.

Skia AsteriDec 2, 20141 votes

Take a spell vamp quint and Evelynn does fine for the level of farming she needs.

She has other problems. Like her early game impact barely justifying her low-ish late game when ganking power was all that mattered, and now that it being made less important.

Volt CruelerzDec 2, 20141 votes

I just wish smiting gromp gave health regen...

synacksaDec 2, 20141 votes

This is something that effects ALL junglers. I actually think the jungle is in a pretty good place right now (Taking into account the new gold changes on the PBE) and that each champ just needs to be adjusted now so that they're viable in the jungle by giving them A) a faster clear vs monsters or B) a safer (more sustain) clear vs monsters. By doing this you can tweak the numbers and make certain junglers stronger/weaker in the early/late game, which gives each jungler a strength and weakness that can be utilized or exploited.

VisysDec 2, 20141 votes

While there are some junglers who are just plain awful right now (eve for one) it is simply not true how people keep exaggerating the early clears.

Someone like Kha'zix especially should not have ANY issues getting to 3.

Someone above said the enemy jungler would just kill you at your second buff.. easy solution is to not do both buffs before backing.

Do gromp>blue>wolves or golems>red>chickens and then back to buy your smite upgrade. Most junglers should be doing a route like this as most don't have the sustain to do more safely.

synacksaDec 2, 20141 votes

Then you just straight up lose your buff and once again, are behind. It's possible to get clears on some tanky junglers by going into the utility tree and getting the vamp steal, longer duration on pots mastery and also slotting in vamp steal/life steal quints. I'm not sure this is a option on more dmg orientated champs in the jungle, as doing so means they don't bring any damage to a gank, which means you kinda of lose your reason for picking the champs at all.

If this jungle meta stays the same as it is now, then I think RIOT is going to fail at their stated goal at making all champs viable in the jungle, because only the tanky/sustain champs will be viable and the damage orientated champs will fall off due to their inability to safely navigate through the early game, much like the tanky champions did last season, where the damage junglers would just come and kill them in the jungle.

Skia AsteriDec 2, 20142 votes

Then you just straight up lose your buff and once again, are behind. It's possible to get clears on some tanky junglers by going into the utility tree and getting the vamp steal, longer duration on pots mastery and also slotting in vamp steal/life steal quints. I'm not sure this is a option on more dmg orientated champs in the jungle, as doing so means they don't bring any damage to a gank, which means you kinda of lose your reason for picking the champs at all.

If this jungle meta stays the same as it is now, then I think RIOT is going to fail at their stated goal at making all champs viable in the jungle, because only the tanky/sustain champs will be viable and the damage orientated champs will fall off due to their inability to safely navigate through the early game, much like the tanky champions did last season, where the damage junglers would just come and kill them in the jungle.

Depends on who the enemy jungler is. For Evelynn I have found stealing an enemy buff is a waste of time unless you kill their jungler in the process, and will hurt her more than it hurts the enemy jungler if they have any kind of mid/late game scaling to fall back on.

For Nunu on the other hand it is probably very worth it to steal a buff early.

ArveanorDec 2, 20141 votes

I'm seeing you guys say Kha'Zix has a strong lategame, and yeah he's got incredible scaling, but if your team wants to actually setup a team fight, most of your damage is probably not going to come through due to isolation. Now, mid game, if you get a bit ahead, you can do wonders on isolated laners, but lategame? We talking the same champion?

GunpointDec 2, 20141 votes

I had to back after wolves as Kha'Zix.

BudupopsDec 3, 20141 votes

Oh, so you want to nerf tanks!

synacksaDec 3, 20141 votes

How is this a nerf to tanks?

BudupopsDec 3, 20141 votes

By giving other jungler more sustain that means they can gank more. Junglers, such as Kha zix, will also have enough sustain to beat the sht out of the tank jungler in there own jungle.

Dosh LotsamoneyDec 3, 20141 votes

The champions do not need to be fixed the jungle needs to be fixed.

Enby TrsdppyDec 3, 20141 votes

what jungle route do you even have at the start? i go blue->wolves->red->raptors &/or gank and 99% of the time i dont have hp issues. i mean i burn both pots in this time but still... also i have time for 2-3 void spikes every buff in the first few levels, even at wolves. you should put your first point in your void spike, second point in claws, 3rd in jump

synacksaDec 3, 20141 votes

Right now I'm going Toad->Blue->Wolves->Fountain->Red->Gank. I'll try your route, but tbh, I'm just not feeling the dmg based junglers anymore as I just feel more and more behind as the game goes on with the lack of gold they're getting.