Convince Me

Dabrick01·Aug 22, 2016·3 votes·516 views

For a while now, Riot has been hanging changes and gutting over my head.

I want to make things clear. THEY ARE FINE. needs some buffs but his kit is fine.

I hate the fact that when someone loses to a champ, they run to the boards to complain about them. Then, other people who also lost to the same champ go to the boards and upvote their post, making it look like that champ has a balance problem. I hope Riot knows better than to listen so a bunch of losers.

I know this post is gonna get mad downvotes, but I want to propose something here if you've read this far.

Convince me why they are broken. Maybe I'll agree with you. I probably won't, but I want to hear your side and have a civil discussion.

20 Comments

Handy Sandy Aug 22, 20163 votes

I have no problem with azir because of cooldowns in mid and early game. Yasuo I do have a problem with though, a windwall that blocks ults, he can remove .5 of his cooldown, 50% armor penetration just isn't ok, a slightly worse malzahar shield as a passive, He can just get it back by teleporting or moving..but at least malzahar isn't as overloaded as him. The only way to actually kill him is when no minions are around with an ambush so he doesn't have time to put up a wall...wtf?

Nick Da ChipAug 25, 20161 votes

I feel like you are over exaggerating just a little, but I still agree to a certain extent. He's the only champion that I have so much trouble getting around. He has so many checks of safeness you have to get by before you can truly go in.

48983507DEL1Aug 22, 20162 votes

The problem with Yasuo was the same problem that Ekko and Fizz were having: building him tank was too good. He'd be both unkillable while packing a ton of damage and decent utility. The fact that he got to the point where he didn't need to build crit-chance to be successful shows that he was heading in a direction he wasn't meant for.

Azir, on the other had, doesn't really seem to have many weaknesses. He has enough "get out of my face" utility to make him safe against most champions, while having superior range to a lot of other mages. The only thing that they can nerf about him without causing significant change is just damage, meaning he'll either be in a really strong spot or a really weak one.

To solve Azir's problems, Riot stated that they either want to make him more of a battle-mage that packs hefty utility and damage at a closer range, or focus in more on his long range sustained damage while removing some of his superior utility. I personally would love to see him become a battle-mage, because I feel the utility in his kit like the Shurima Shuffle is absolutely core to his identity, and would actually make him more badass to be more close-quarters, fighting alongside his soldiers and what-not.

Malignant VemiraAug 22, 20162 votes

There is nothing inherent in Yasuo going tank that makes him good as a tank. Phantom dancer is the problem, not his kit. It gives him 60% crit, 12% reduction, which is about 50~ armor / resist and 45% atk spd. It's any 1v1 champs dream item. I can show you that it's just as toxic if not more toxic on Master Yi.

Proof? Go play straight tank yasuo, NO CRIT ITEM, NO ADC ITEM. Tell me how it goes.

He doesn't have build in % damage like Fiora/Ekko/Fizz.

48983507DEL1Aug 24, 20161 votes

Well yes, Phantom Dancer is a pretty strong item right now, but it's still inherently better on Yasuo than other champions.

Despite this, however, one of his best builds was centered around Trinity Force and Frozen Mallet, then going straight tank. No crit whatsoever in this build. THAT is the problem I'm referring to. It gave him a ton of damage while also piling on the HP.

NahuiAug 22, 20162 votes

Riot doesn't look to boards for balance. They take stats from plat+. The boards are just a place to vocalize concerns, and may catch a wandering Riot eye for them to look into it, but without plat+ stats supporting it, nothing will happen.

Otherwise, Yasuo isn't broken. Phantom dancer is just too good. 12% damage reduction is silly. Maokai gets 20% on a cd and a mama cost, 12% for a single gold investment against all sources at all times I pretty sweet. It just synergizes well. He's a sustained damage dealer who relies on sustaining until ult and this item helps radically.

RalanrAug 22, 20162 votes

For Yasuo, it's because he's performing better with an off meta build that covers his weaknesses (being a squishy, item reliant, glass cannon skirmisher) rather than his primary build.

All champions are built with specific weaknesses. You can build to overcome those weaknesses, but doing so is supposed to hurt your strengths more than building on your strengths. This happened with tank Fiora, tank Yi, and Tank Ekko. They are meant to be squishy melee carries but ended up doing more damage (or just being more successful) than their normal damage builds.

Considering how Yasuo is centered around crit and his tank/bruiser has no crit in it, it's clear there's a problem since he's doing better by avoiding his intended build.

I don't know enough about Azir to really say anything. Something about a lack of weaknesses in the hands of skilled players.

Dabrick01Aug 22, 20161 votes

So why is he getting more hate then, let's say LeeSin . The main thing I see is that he has a higher skill cap than other champs.

As for Tanksuo, he can build defensive after crit in his normal build anyway. WHy are defensive items such a problem if he can build them anyway.

One game, just to test it out, I built item 3087 + item 3031 into item 3078 + item 3748 and then rounded it off with a Sunfire and swifties. I crit and had enough tanky stats to survive in a fight.

Also, he's not an assassin, he just kills people really fast. He's a fighter, he can build tanky.

RalanrAug 22, 20161 votes

Lee has always been incredibly versatile in his builds. Course he's not the current board bitch.

The problem is that you shouldn't be doing well with durable items on a champion that's meant to be squishy. You certainly shouldn't be doing better than you would on a squishy build. Yasuo already has built in defensive tools with his passive and his E. Giving him more without him losing any meaningful damage is a problem to fight against.

This is probably because damage has been ramped up across the boards, to the point where instead of needing "more damage" to kill people, you have "just enough" to kill people earlier and still have empty slots for durability.

If you have enough damage to kill people before you finish your build, then why build damage?

And there's the problem. It looks like many damage champions don't need to build much damage to actually do there job. That's a problem.

Dabrick01Aug 22, 20161 votes

If dmg dealers needed to build full dmg to deal enough dmg, then they would get one shot. If tanks had to build full tank to survive, they would have no dmg. There needs to be a balance between Glass Cannon and Full tank.

We get that through tanky AD and AP items.

Also, why do you think that some builds are ever made? They are made to help a champ with it's weaknesses.

A jg has no CC so it builds Stalker's Blade. The build path overcomes the champs weaknesses. I'm not saying this Tanksuo is like that, it's just that you can't expect builds like this to not exist. Tanky AD items allow for divers like Shyvana and LeeSin to exist and do what they do well.

If we remove every tanky AD and AP item, then no one will be able to survive without building tank items, cutting some dmg.

RalanrAug 22, 20161 votes

Glass cannon builds are supposed to be a thing. Champions who build them are usually given defensive tools in their kits to allow them to build full damage.

You're also ignoring base damages on tanks, which are very high to allow them to do decent damage without being forced to buy damage items. There are also tanks with health scaling damage abilities.

I know builds like this exist. Hell they are expected to exist. The problem is when the builds become unhealthy by doing better than their main build. Heavily offsetting a champions weaknesses without a drawback is a massive problem.

Imagine if there was an item that gave a champion X amount of dashes on a short cooldown (like a no damage, more utility version of protobelt with a shorter cooldown). Now imagine champions like Darius, Volibear, Mordekaiser, Mundo, and Olaf start using this item. These tanky characters that are weak to kiting because of their lack of mobility suddenly lose this weakness upon this item.

Now an item like this would never be made obviously, but I hope you understand that all champions are meant to have weaknesses that can be exploited and builds that remove them are unhealthy.

If you can, please name the weakness of tank/bruiser Yasuo. And don't say damage, because he ha enough sustained damage with this durability to win fights.

Dabrick01Aug 24, 20161 votes

I totally get what you're saying. And I can't give a weakness.

You must be like, "HAHA I GOT HIM NOW!"

Well, what I'm trying to say is that this build solves a weakness hindering Yasuo. I know that they are supposed to have weaknesses that can be exploited, but you can't expect a player base to not try to solve the weaknesses of a champ by playing around them or by making a build to combat their weaknesses.

Bruiser Ekko was easy to deal with as he was AP. But Tanksuo is harder to deal with without screwing up actual Tanky AD champs like you mentioned. Even Tank Assassin ADCs are a problem right now.

It's that this is a byproduct of someone figuring out how to bypass a weakness through builds. My point here is that these builds will not stop being made. As we get new items, it will make some champs better and some too good.

RalanrAug 24, 20161 votes

Well yeah, that's the case with everything that's added.

Should we do nothing about it? No. But we want to make these tank assassin discouraged from building these items without hurting the classes they are built for. That is a lot harder than we like.

As for building to counteract weaknesses, yes I know that's a thing and there is nothing wrong with that because you're supposed to be sacrificing some strength for that. The problem with these tank assassin builds is that it doesn't seem like they are sacrificing anything of value. They aren't really hindered to do their job, in fact they do it better!

I played an ARAM against a full tank Xin and he could kill at least 2 of my team before we could bring him down. He's not an assassin sure, but he still was effective at getting kills despite building no offensive items. On a champion where you're supposed to build at least one offensive item, it seems like a problem.

Honestly I just blame damage being too high at this point.

Raven ElizabethAug 22, 20161 votes

Yasou is getting some nerfish changes coming if i remember correctly. They will be targeting his tanky side which sounds good to me. Honestly im just tired of seeing yasou in every damn game. If he inst banned there is a 50% chance he will be picked.

Spicy RiceAug 22, 20162 votes

It's less that he is good, and more than he is simply fun to play. His skills fit his theme, and his animations all flow together making him really smooth and satisfying to play.

Dabrick01Aug 22, 20161 votes

I totally agree with you! That is what attracted me to him in the first place.

Dabrick01Aug 22, 20161 votes

I would be OK if tanksuo got changed, but if they remove any of the thematic part of his kit, then that would suck.

ThugWalrusAug 22, 20161 votes

I don't see many people calling for Azir nerfs, but he falls into the category of late game beast that has relatively safe laning due to a very versatile kit. People tend not to like these champions because they have more tools at their disposal than most, and essentially put a timer on the game like "you better end before 35 minutes or it's gg." He of course shares this with champs like Yasuo. Another popular one is Gangplank, who is also perceived to be a champ that destroys late game but is also safe.

This is opposed to champs like Nasus and Kogmaw, who although they wreck face late, they're kits are far more linear and thus have less of a frustration factor, and also don't lane very well.