Please Revert the Scuttle Changes

Nøctμrne··87 votes·19,195 views

This last update caused a lot of major issues, that many believed would be fixed with the slight reduction in jungle exp and the increased necessity to play around scuttle. I believe that scuttle was the wrong thing to make a priority, and this has caused a reverse outcome then what they expected would occur.

Jungler's: There is no longer any form of diversity in the jungle. If you want to pick a weak jungler, be prepared to be bullied out of the river, and lose any advantage you might have. Champions like Graves and Warwick are more dominant than ever in the jungle

The counter to this; which I have been doing, is simply starting at the opposite end of the jungle I know they will be starting at, but this in itself causes a lot of issues. Champions with weaker early clears will be hurt by the decreased leash exp, and will have an even harder time fighting for scuttle if the enemy teams jungler do make it to you.

Although this might seem like a good strategy, what happens at starting at the opposite side means there will be major consequences for your side of the jungle. If bot side is closest to blue, and you are forced to go Red > Raptors > Scuttle, you have left your whole bot side open, and free to be stolen. If the enemy jungler is good, and notices no counter-play at the scuttle in their bot side, they will run through your camps and grab everything.

Laner's: I believe one of the issue's that they hoped to resolve with this update was to decrease early lane pressure, but I have seen the opposite of this. Because of the scuttle priority, I now see far more level 2 ganks from junglers directly after clearing their first buff, this gives them immediate scuttle priority, but applies immediate lane pressure that they said would be fixed.

Of course, as I know some of you will say, there is counter-play to this, but if the level 2 gank succeeds, and the bot lane gets 2, or even 1 kill, then you taking the enemy sides open camps will mean nothing when their bot lane is now far ahead, and will then ruin yours (if you are in a lower elo game, even more so).

Going to mid lane, the meta has now been totally screwed. this jungle change has caused mid lane diversity to fall off as well. People are playing more and more summoner 11 mid, and picking heavy wave clear champs in order to either be able to take scuttle, or to help pressure it. Mid lane's with average/poor wave clear will then fall behind and be less useful in early game.

I know there a lot of posts regarding this last patch up already, but I just wanted to throw in my input as well. My words may be hard to follow and somewhat disorganized for some, so if you have questions feel free to ask. Thank you!

89 Comments

Snowman Arc9 votes

Another overreaction thead.

The scuttle changes essentially made it to be equal to one extra camp's worth of XP. It's not a huge deal, it's just easier to take and doesn't deal damage. Early game strong junglers were always a menace to the weaker ones. I don't understand why people cry about it now.

Nøctμrne23 votes

One extra camp worth 70+ gold and almost half a level of exp. This can relatively equate to losing a full minion wave at bot lane or any other lane. Please tell me how you would feel if you lost a full lanes worth of creeps lvl 2 because the enemy teams champions are stronger early game.

CubanThund3r7 votes

lmao you act like anybody below diamond can understand the importance of a full lane worth of creeps

SwiftKitten884 votes

{quoted}

lmao you act like anybody below diamond can understand the importance of a full lane worth of creeps

they may not understand the value of the gold... but they certainly understand if they enemy laner was hitting 6 before they hit lvl 4. if you dont get scuttle in jungle.. your fucked.. the other jungler wins.. and you can do nothing to stop him for taking more and more of you camps putting you even further and further behind

MohawkBird2 votes

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KlydeFrog1 votes

Chances are he was ganking and you werent had nothing to do with skuttles there champ

KlydeFrog1 votes

So counter jungling doing what its supposed to shocker

Snowman Arc2 votes

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Nøctμrne18 votes

You are plat 5, if you are referring to me as "One of you lower elo player's" and are generalizing the community, you are having some serious issues to overlook blatantly clear problems.

Battalion1 votes

Plat is mid elo at best. It's not difficult to get to, anyone who can get to Gold can get to Platinum if they sink enough games into ranked. To most high elo players (Masters+) Diamond 5 and below is low elo, so keep your arrogance in check.

ShaolinToilet1 votes

Op thinks ww is op this thread is just straight circlejerk

Nøctμrne6 votes

ww is strong in early-mid game, I did not say he was op. He falls off heavily late game, but he is one of the strongest early game jungle champions, and will trash anyone 1v1 early. I think you are trying a bit too hard to invalidate what I have said.

Battalion1 votes

I agree WW is too powerful early.

The Bad Touch2 votes

{quoted}

Plat is mid elo at best. It's not difficult to get to, anyone who can get to Gold can get to Platinum if they sink enough games into ranked. To most high elo players (Masters+) Diamond 5 and below is low elo, so keep your arrogance in check.

Actually High Silver is "mid elo"

Mid mean Middle. As in half the players are above that, and half are below.

dunder kill1 votes

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Serika Zero5 votes

{quoted}

He's D5 on NA. You're P5 on a worthless trash server. Maybe try talking shit when your server isnt so garbage that you cant even have normal draft

na and eune has equivalent skill levels and player count........ so... yeh.............. 1.2mil (almost 1.3mil in na server) and 1.1mil, like 1.15mil on eune. quite similar in terms of size, and thus, in terms of skills

euw is at 2.1mil and korea is at 2.4mil

so, you should think again before calling eune worthless server, as na isn't that much popular

Sire Hippington1 votes

well, that's kinda what happend with the min 3 ganks if the enmy jungle was stronger than yours, either the gank cought you, forced your flash and send you back while they push in the wave, or you played efensively and you#re opponent frezzes the lane also denying you a wave or more...

And since that sucked alot, i'm certainly against the current scuttler situation, it's just horrible.

Leto GT7 votes

The problem is that it gives you an actual jungle parthing heading towards the enemy jungle or towards mid for a gank. So it makes things that were cheesy and very risky a legit route from now on.

Let's say before you would typically buff -> wolves or wraith -> buff. Somebody (lee sin) willing to cheese you and kill you on your second buff would do buff -> run to your buff and wait you there - so one camp behind alright, if he fails that's bad for him but if it works he get a a buff or a kill but remain lvl2. It's bad for you but you can come back alright.

Now the lee sin can do buff -> scuttle ( = krugs so it's an actual camp) -> meet you at the buff. At this point, you're equal in terms of gold/exp yet the full hp guy is about to kill you in the your own jungle + get lvl3. Meaning he can abuse that for the rest of game and snowball out of control. It's unhealthy period.

See the issue? And the fact that it's a lvl2 path makes it even more problematic because it really limits the pick to certain champions.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Well, I understand that, but that's why you need to be proactive and learn to defend yourself. Doing one buff and waiting for scuttle wastes about 15 seconds, because the spawn time is not synced with killing the buff. So, that's 15 seconds wasted, which can be VERY impactful early on.

When I play Graves, I do buff, Gromp / Raptors depending on start, then rush to the river and pick the scuttle. The clear time is perfectly on sync, so I get to get to the scuttle as soon as it spawns (maybe 1 second or two later), and by attacking it so it pushes bot side means that I get to secure it. I kinda run the risk of getting my red buff stolen (assuming I start blue), if the enemy jungler can identify that route, but that means that they have to do their own buff and then rush immediately to my own. If they do that, I can steal their raptors or path to my topside to clear that scuttle, while they are doing my red buff, and I have a big advantage already and I can go ahead and check their blue side jungle to pick up more farm and probably their blue buff. If I see the enemy jungler there, it means that my top side jungle is safe, though, which is even better; safe farming for me. At the end of the day, I did manage to pick up both scuttles, while securing my own jungle.

Throughout all this, ganking a lane is unlikely. You are still level 2 after the buff, gromp, scuttle, so the gank isn't quite as impactful. I mean, there were cases were Jarvan would do red buff into gank mid, so right now, it feels so much more fair that you can't gank as much.

KlydeFrog1 votes

Umm buff gromp wolves skuttle ? Hows that waisting time. Or ill play ivern passive my buff walkover steal theres passive skuttle passive raptors take red take skuttle take raptors how is that waisting time?

Verxint2 votes

The problem is that it wasn't necessary and nobody wanted it. Instead of fixing the problems in the simplest way possible, they changed everything.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Well, I was not against it. I wasn't a fan of it either, I was neutral, but I liked that there would be some shake up. I also believe that they are currently working on fixing other problems as well. Sure, they introduce more variables for potential problems and need for balancing, but I like change, so I'm ok with it.

KlydeFrog1 votes

70 gold is still 70 gold and regening mana and hp was worth

Anime Fizz2 votes

Yes lets revert a change that made the game health better, great logic.

Man jungle players really dont care about the game, they just want their role to be overpowered thats it.

Nøctμrne17 votes

If you really want to fall back on attacking all Jungle mains, and thinking that we feel jungle is way overpowered without giving us any input on how this change made the game any healthier, you are naive.

Jungler's no longer have any free will to pick a champion they want to play, and are being forced to play the Jungle champions that have been created to be otherwise broken with very little counter.

These are all the current jungler's: Amumu Camille Chogath Evelynn Elise Hecarim Graves Gragas Fiddlesticks Ivern Kaisa Khazix Nocturne Nunu Olaf Rammus RekSai Rengar Sejuani Shyvana Skarner Trundle Twitch Udyr Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao ZacJarvanIV Jax

Near most of these champions have been made obsolete and useless as junglers (Zac Amumu, etc.) because of their inability to duel at level 2; which believe it or not, seems to be when games are being decided with this new patch.

If you lose both scuttles at level 2, you may as well surrender the game, other jungler becomes farther ahead, and has more gold, has more map control, and can gank easier (and will win in a jungle v jungle situation.)

Now, I listed the current jungler's, but these are the only one's that are strong and can be viably played at the moment: Graves LeeSin Nocturne (put him in here because I'm a Nocturne one trick, and I have been successful with him so far)Skarner RekSai Udyr Warwick XinZhao Trundle

the real difference in this is that these champions all have access to a form of CC at level 2, and have the damage along with it in order to kill someone.

Please give some actual reasons that I can refute, before assuming you understand the Jungle role and what these changes actually do to it.

Anime Fizz1 votes

{quoted}

If you really want to fall back on attacking all Jungle mains, and thinking that we feel jungle is way overpowered without giving us any input on how this change made the game any healthier, you are naive.

Jungler's no longer have any free will to pick a champion they want to play, and are being forced to play the Jungle champions that have been created to be otherwise broken with very little counter.

These are all the current jungler's: Amumu Camille Chogath Evelynn Elise Hecarim Graves Gragas Fiddlesticks Ivern Kaisa Khazix Nocturne Nunu Olaf Rammus RekSai Rengar Sejuani Shyvana Skarner Trundle Twitch Udyr Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao ZacJarvanIV Jax

Near most of these champions have been made obsolete and useless as junglers (Zac Amumu, etc.) because of their inability to duel at level 2; which believe it or not, seems to be when games are being decided with this new patch.

If you lose both scuttles at level 2, you may as well surrender the game, other jungler becomes farther ahead, and has more gold, has more map control, and can gank easier (and will win in a jungle v jungle situation.)

Now, I listed the current jungler's, but these are the only one's that are strong and can be viably played at the moment: Graves LeeSin Nocturne (put him in here because I'm a Nocturne one trick, and I have been successful with him so far)Skarner RekSai Udyr Warwick XinZhao Trundle

the real difference in this is that these champions all have access to a form of CC at level 2, and have the damage along with it in order to kill someone.

Please give some actual reasons that I can refute, before assuming you understand the Jungle role and what these changes actually do to it.

Stop being ridiculous and acting that killing 1 scuttle at lvl 2 means you win the game.

Scuttle is just an extra camp, thats it, you dont lose a game by losing 1 camp.

This shit is so overblown that its absurd, holy whiny jungle players.

Battalion8 votes

The majority of Jungle exp was rerouted to the scuttle. It's like missing the cannon minion for the next 4 waves while your lane opponent hits 100% of them. Furthermore it's not even a 1v1 or 2v2 role, it's a jungle position and supposed to be a 1v1 sometimes, but generally it's farming and getting gold/exp then applying pressure intermittently. The fact that other laners have to come to try and help the 50/50 smite fight only means that the stakes are doubled.

Even if you farm your entire jungle there's nothing that will put you back up to the enemy jungler's level and gold value other than a kill.

Nøctμrne7 votes

So are you telling me that a 115 exp and 70 gold difference doesn't matter at level 2 or 3?

If I'm not mistaken, lanes that get a 115 exp difference, or who get level 2 first (which I'm going to consider an equivalent amount for this instance) if played right, end up zoning and winning their lane within a few seconds if the other team does not play it right.

You have still not given any real evidence as to how the scuttle has been good for this game. I haven't even mentioned how it's a random mechanic.

Serika Zero1 votes

yeh, but laners have to.......... LANE against each other and be present in LANE and CONSTANTLY EACH EACH OTHER'S TRADES. The jungle is much more BIG AND FREE TO MOVE IN

MohawkBird1 votes

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The Bad Touch1 votes

{quoted}

You are forgetting the fact that you can get exp for free just by existing in lane. Imagine is lane exp was only acquirable by last hitting. People would only be playing strong lane bullies and champions who can zone, allowing for an easy multiple level discrepancy because you can't even step up to last it.

Likewise, in the jungle, if you cannot duel early to secure the early scuttle you are completely fucked. You are submitting to a 2-3 level discrepancy and utter uselessness for the vast majority of the game. Good luck trying to contest a jungle who is already level 6 while you are sitting in your jungle at level 4.

So non interactive jungles that farm for 20 minutes are bad?

Thank god.

FYI you can Red->Gank->Krugs and hit level 3 you know... Most laners are cool with leaching a small amount of xp if you actually HELP them... instead of doing 2 FC jungle routes on some late game champ and leave your team getting shit on for 8 minutes by a Lee Sin.

Serika Zero1 votes

You are forgetting the fact that you can get exp for free just by existing in lane. Imagine is lane exp was only acquirable by last hitting. People would only be playing strong lane bullies and champions who can zone, allowing for an easy multiple level discrepancy because you can't even step up to last it.

no, you do NOT. Minions have an exp range.

How to test this: lunch the practice mode. open option and toggle the 'show experience' button to be on.

Now spam time fast forward till minions spawn. And now check out different ranges and see that sometimes you get exp, sometimes you don't.

Depending how far away you are from your minions. You DO NOT GET FREE EXP BY JUST EXISTING IN LANE. You get exp by being in minion exp range or by last hitting minions (this mostly affects champions like ezreal with global ult, or like malzahar that places a dot and then goes on his way elsewhere).

Now, I do not know the exact range of minion exp. All I know that if the wave if frozen under my turret and i can push you like below half the lane, you ain't getting shit.

The only thing that you get for "free" in this game is: ambient gold, every few seconds you get a little bit of gold turret gold when your team mates kill a turret

and, that's about it. There's no such thing as "free exp for just existing"

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

Serika Zero1 votes

you can get zoned out my dear if the match up is that heavily outside of your favor.

faker even did it at msi last year i believe in a cassio vs leblack match-up in pro play, where he won a trade hard at lv1 by doing something his enemy didn't expect and then the entire game, the enemy mid laner was an item or more behind and behind in levels. THE ENTIRE GAME.

yes, laners can zone themselves hard, and win match-ups hard at every elo (not just bronze as someone else was insisting). and i don't see why junglers should have the luxury to not heave to deal with consequences for making bad picks in draft (such as a late game jungler with late game laners)

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

Serika Zero1 votes

faker did it at msi, on a pro scene at an international tournament.

and you're telling me I can't do this shit in bronze/silver/gold/plat/dia? ofc i can, and i did it before as well.

and people did it to me as well. Which is why phanteon that gets even a slight lead is abusing as fuck.

Stop trying to make it sounds like laners have just as hard of a time getting zoned from exp. The fact is that they don't.

Well dear, you got your facts wrong. Because they do. Just because you don't know how to do that, or people haven't done it to you before doesn't mean they do not. YES, YOU CAN ZONE PEOPLE OUT OF EXP RANGE IN LANE IN A GOOD MATCH-UP BY TAKING JUST A SINGLE GOOD TRADE ONCE WHICH IS EASY BECAUSE THE MATCH-UP FAVORS YOU.

Either that or you farm your enemy for gold. And THEY STILL LOSE EXP THAT WAY BECAUSE THEY ARE IN BASE AND MINIONS DIE TO TURRETS.

so, case 1: you zone them from gold and exp case 2: you farm them for gold and you zone them from gold and exp.

MohawkBird1 votes

[deleted]

Serika Zero1 votes

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=faker+cassio+vs+leblanc+msi&atb=v69-5_z&ia=videos

literally the first result https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM8UHxR46uY

and ofc, full game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6eAOxQLAfY because youtube has a nice thing that shows you related videos.

feel free to watch the entire game. And yes, this thing happens like in like 10-20% of soloq games for laners.

You don't see this often in lcs because people do not opt in bad match-ups. But this was an unexpected match-up with a good champion. So, stuff like this is rare in lcs, but just uncommon in soloq.

AetherArising1 votes

{quoted}

If you really want to fall back on attacking all Jungle mains, and thinking that we feel jungle is way overpowered without giving us any input on how this change made the game any healthier, you are naive.

Jungler's no longer have any free will to pick a champion they want to play, and are being forced to play the Jungle champions that have been created to be otherwise broken with very little counter.

These are all the current jungler's: Amumu Camille Chogath Evelynn Elise Hecarim Graves Gragas Fiddlesticks Ivern Kaisa Khazix Nocturne Nunu Olaf Rammus RekSai Rengar Sejuani Shyvana Skarner Trundle Twitch Udyr Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao ZacJarvanIV Jax

Near most of these champions have been made obsolete and useless as junglers (Zac Amumu, etc.) because of their inability to duel at level 2; which believe it or not, seems to be when games are being decided with this new patch.

If you lose both scuttles at level 2, you may as well surrender the game, other jungler becomes farther ahead, and has more gold, has more map control, and can gank easier (and will win in a jungle v jungle situation.)

Now, I listed the current jungler's, but these are the only one's that are strong and can be viably played at the moment: Graves LeeSin Nocturne (put him in here because I'm a Nocturne one trick, and I have been successful with him so far)Skarner RekSai Udyr Warwick XinZhao Trundle

the real difference in this is that these champions all have access to a form of CC at level 2, and have the damage along with it in order to kill someone.

Please give some actual reasons that I can refute, before assuming you understand the Jungle role and what these changes actually do to it.

you forgot Vi on the list of junglers. I've had a lot of success with her, but i'm in silver so enemy intelligence is pretty low. (I dont think i'll make it higher than low gold, i have carpel tunnel and low general awareness with unlocked camera likely due to my Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, so again, take everything i say with much salt)

tbh shes mehhh for dueling until 3 but here in silver people dont take 2 scutts, they go buff-camp-buff-top scuttle usually. Vi has fast clears (though will lose to Xin Zhao, Graves, Udyr, WW, and the other winner champs. She DOES trump all others below that though from what i've experienced however.) and armor crack + knockup will shred Scuttle armor beyond belief. thus, she works

isnt played much though...

anyways thats just a little chime-in. dont forget vi even tho shes pretty off-meta, she still works well this season/patch on an electrocute build.

LightIsMyPath1 votes

You forgot poor vi, kindred and nidalee. Ps: Shouldn't NIDA be good in this situation? She clears pretty fast and healthy and can hold her own in an early duel.. Why she's not played?

Nøctμrne1 votes

You know, you're actually right, Nidalee should be good in this situation, but I think she is more of a niche champion, meaning if you don't know how to play her very well, you aren't going to do good period. Not sure though, maybe it's just a lack of people wanting to play her.

Lord KhaZix2 votes

High skill level + nidalee falls a little short to other junglers in an isolated 1v1, don t get me wrong she s good at killing tanks at their buffs in the enemy jungle, a spear coming out of nowhere and marking you for her to do extra dmg, blabla, but in the river where you can see the spear coming from miles away she s not that good...

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

You forgot poor vi, kindred and nidalee. Ps: Shouldn't NIDA be good in this situation? She clears pretty fast and healthy and can hold her own in an early duel.. Why she's not played?

nidalee duel requires lvl 3

because unlike in lane she cant grab pounce 2nd without getting executed.

LightIsMyPath1 votes

She can start with w, trap 2 camps , kill the first helping herself when w reduced cd on hunt and unlock q at level 2

SwiftKitten881 votes

{quoted}

She can start with w, trap 2 camps , kill the first helping herself when w reduced cd on hunt and unlock q at level 2

lol wut?

yeah she could... in the first few patches of EARLY SEASON 6... where have u been.... that hasn't worked for AGES

W "resets" from 6 seconds to 4.5 seconds now..

rather than from 5 to 1 as it did in early season 6...

also jungle camps arn't rooted anymore..

LightIsMyPath1 votes

She still can, it's just slower and she has to kite the buff more but she's definitely not getting executed. I see people alternating the start but I couldn't figure out on what base they choose the one or the other

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