AD Armor VS MR Armor

Muten Shensei·Mar 12, 2018·44 votes·3,595 views

As a person who likes to play tank, armor seems very useless vs ADCs compared to magic resist vs APCs. I was fed, building Ninja Tab, Randuins, Thornmail, and this twitch decided he could just tear me down in like 4 autos with his ult. I'm confused ... Is there a hidden secret about building tank? Sometimes I feel like as a Tank, I'd be more useful building damage and try to kill the carry faster than they can kill me. Now when it comes to a heavy MR team, I do quite well building some nice MR items like abyssal mask, spirit visage, etc.

Summary: I think we need a tank item like Adaptive Helm (edit, thanks to commenter below) that reduces damage from ad the more you get hit, or just some new tank item that can avoid tanks actually getting nailed in the behind all the time.

83 Comments

Taliyah RocksMar 12, 201824 votes

I still think that it is unfair than a single MR item can completely negate the damage of an AP champion, but that building five whole armor items isn't enough to survive an ADC if he decides to focus you.

There was a point in LoL's history where going a full AD team comp meant an almost garanteed loss. Nowadays AP champions are optionnal and full AD comps are very successful.

Flawless FetusMar 13, 20186 votes

Yup. I remember those days. Maalphite and rammus were both strong picks. Then they both recieved heavy nerfs; then there was no reason to avoid full ad comps. Lol.

NorthernRedStarMar 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Hands r 2 Big,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JwnzEw0w,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-03-12T18:20:56.588+0000)

I still think that it is unfair than a single MR item can completely negate the damage of an AP champion, but that building five whole armor items isn't enough to survive an ADC if he decides to focus you.

There was a point in LoL's history where going a full AD team comp meant an almost garanteed loss. Nowadays AP champions are optionnal and full AD comps are very successful.

Mage has to build a Void Staff to deal any form of relevant damage (unless they're Vel'koz).

ADC just keeps building greedy crit items with AS, with no armor pen whatsoever, and still demolish you like you had no armor.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 12, 201816 votes

The reason for that is that AD is the intended stat to take down tanks, whereas AP is largely used as a burst stat. There are a few outliers of course, like Cass and Ryze, but they are the exception, not the rule. This means that your health plays double duty as defense against AP, as it's just dropped as a lump sum with cooldowns.

Muten ShenseiMar 12, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JwnzEw0w,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-03-12T17:49:46.985+0000)

The reason for that is that AD is the intended stat to take down tanks, whereas AP is largely used as a burst stat. There are a few outliers of course, like Cass and Ryze, but they are the exception, not the rule. This means that your health plays double duty as defense against AP, as it's just dropped as a lump sum with cooldowns.

If there was a clear triangle (like fire emblem axe>spear>sword>axe), I'd say fine, but I thought league was based on gold, getting ahead, and skill shots, etc. I am clearly angry that, getting ahead still made my build utter useless because their twitch (which had similar gold to me) dominated my health bar ten folds by just standing there and left clicking; I was playing a Shen, positioned my Q to empower it, blocked as much dmg with w as I could, and even initiated a nice taunt still got melted down like a joke.

edit: I would have won that if I had a Nashor's Tooth or something was my point...

Cowgirl EdMar 12, 20183 votes

you're playing reworked shen, there's your problem

Muten ShenseiMar 12, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JwnzEw0w,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-12T19:16:01.717+0000)

you're playing reworked shen, there's your problem

I can actually handle myself against most champs (if I'm fed and doing well), just not against something with that much ridiculous shred.

Cowgirl EdMar 12, 20184 votes

yeah i was (half) joking the problem is ranged ad carries are retarded and need a serious rework and huge rebalance

i think a relaunch of the game will be good in a year or two, but won't happen for obvious reasons

Dr PoroMar 13, 20182 votes

I have bad experience with relaunches of games. Please don't.

There are other MOBAs incase League is not for you.

But yeah, I'm also not a fan of OP adcs. (Why did they buff twitch again?)

5050BSMar 12, 20183 votes

WTF sorry not sure what game you are playing but AP is only a burst stat for a FEW champs and ONLY with their ults while AD is almost all Burst in todays games.

Lets see the mages here and if they are Burst

Ahri nope Akali yes Anivia yes Annie yes AurelionSol nope Azir nope Bard nope nope Cassiopeia nope Chogath nope (only in Ult) Diana yes DrMundo nope Ekko nope Elise nope Evelynn nope (only in ult) Ezreal nope Fiddlesticks nope Fizz yes Galio nope Gragas nope Heimerdinger nope Ivern nope Janna nope Karthus nope Kassadin yesish Katarina yes Kayle nope Kennen nope Leblanc yes Lissandra nope Lulu nope Lux nope (only with Ult and it is stupid how EZ it is) Malphite Nope (only with Ult) Malzahar Nope Mordekaiser Nope Morgana Nope Nami nope Nidalee nope Nunu nope Orianna nope (only with Ult) Rakan Nope Rengar Yes Rumble nope Ryze Nope Sejuani Nope Shaco yes Singed nope Sona nope Soraka nope Swain nope Syndra nope (only with Ult) TahmKench nope Taliyah Nope Taric Nope Teemo Nope Tristana nope (only with Ult) TwistedFate nope Veigar nope (only with Ult) Velkoz nope Viktor nope Vladimir Nope Warwick Nope Xerath Nope Zac Nope Ziggs Nope Zilean Nope Zoe yes Zyra Nope

You will also note that all the 'yes' are assassins also there are a few that are but ONLY with Ult use. But MOST are not.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 12, 201824 votes

Mages have 3 different damage paradigms: burst, poke, and dps.

On your list, you include supports, ADCs, and tanks, and also completely misinterpret what damage the mages you do list do (and use things like “only with ult”, disregarding the fact that those mages don’t fight without their ult, making it the entirety of their play pattern).

Like seriously, why the hell are you listing champs like Mundo, Warwick, and Nami, and how do you say Syndra isn’t a burst mage?

Ok sure but whyMar 13, 20181 votes

I dunno, AP Warwick is pretty bursty to me

MrHaZeYoMar 13, 20186 votes

Im not even going to reply to the non black mages you listed.

Ahri does indees burst. Mid-late game her ewq is enough to kill a squishy.

Azir is more sustained damage but can indead slow burst someone down.

Brand does indeed burst, he hits like a truck.

Elise and Ekko? You better believe they'll 100-0 you without hesitation.

Same goes for Nid, and Eve. They all have assassin patterns, they need to be able to burst or they die.

Lux is a burst champion cuase her ult is apart of her combo.

You dont think Ap Morg doesn't burst? Her Rqwr will delete a squishy, its just a bit of a slow burst.

Orianna can chunk you without the need of her ult, with it? You're 100-0ed

Syndra? You're kidding yourself, ive deleted people without the need of her ult and again, her ult is apart of her kit.

Tali is all about the burst, she has no combat ult.

TF? Yes he bursts, if he didnt he't be useless.

While Ziggs, Vel, and Xerath (and Lux) are technically artillery mages, they have no problem bursting you down if you miss position.

Zyra is a unique blend of sustain and burst, in the right position she can 100-0 someone, worst case she half hps you.

Finally Veigar, his ult is apart of his burst but even without it his w has 100% Ap scaling and his Q chunks hard. Its not outside the relm of unbelievable that he can 2 shot with his w n q.

Also forgot Liss, she can 100-0 someone, she just needs a bit more to do it. She just needs to use her e offensivly for damage and her q is on a stupid low cd.

PurpleKingCrazyMar 13, 20182 votes

Actually, Taliyah is more about control, but she can slow burst you down if you get cocky with her.

Taliyah

MrHaZeYoMar 13, 20181 votes

I mean a WE into a full Q will prolly kill someone mid-late, but you are right.

AllyK8eMar 14, 20181 votes

Taliyah ult can knock people up. I would count that as a combat ult.

NineTailedMysticMar 14, 20181 votes

Ahri does indees burst. Mid-late game her ewq is enough to kill a squishy.

I wish.

MrHaZeYoMar 14, 20182 votes

https://youtu.be/y_KuI_oKsJY

Granted it's end game, Draven is dead before the Orb return damage can even hit him. And it goes through his BT Shield as well.

https://youtu.be/DUIVUPH0D10

This was at the end of last season but if you watch I don't cast either my Orb or Charm and Trist dies. This when we were both on four items (I had Morrello, Gunblade, Sorc Shoes, and Lich) ~ I might of had Void or Deathcap too. If you watch though, it's 1 proc of Spirit Rush, two out of the 3 fox fires, Gunblade, and a LB AA.

Ahri can indeed burst a squishy done mid-late.

NineTailedMysticMar 14, 20181 votes

When it's super late game, an ADC is without their Support, and a Lux has 1008 AP so I wouldn't be surprised if you had a similar number, yea, Ahri can burst a squishy. Plus the marginal True Damage from Elixir of Sorcery.

Also the second clip is attributed solely due to you being two levels higher than her, and most of the rest of the players in the game for that matter so you're hyper fed, and external damage sources being TLD (since I assume this is pre-Runes Reforged), Gunblade active, and a Lichbane proc.

Ahri can't do what your clips show 90% of the time.

MrHaZeYoMar 14, 20183 votes

Being with a support doesn't really matter when we're talking about burst. I understand why you say that but theoretically a Ahri or any other burst mage can 100-0 someone on a given notice. Ahri can play like a assassin as I'm sure you know and can easily treat fights as such, waiting to go in and come in on a flank allowing her to indeed burst someone down already focused on the start of a fight.

A support just stops burst, it doesn't mean you don't do it.

The second clip, She was popping off, but i had the jump on her. Fed or not, Lv18-Lv16 (Not ling Trist's HP is going to rise that much where my Q and E that I didn't use wouldn't of killed them, not needing my Orb or Charm and only 1 spirit rush charge with 5 to 5 items (each), I did exactly what a assassin should, deleted the priority target.

The point though is that Ahri does have burst, even if you don't kill someone, it doesn't mean you don't burst, burst is simply just removing a large chunk of HP in under a certain amount of time.

I do understand that I wish she did burst harder through out the game. but she is more than capable of bursting out a Squishy.

NineTailedMysticMar 14, 20181 votes

Burst is pretty useless if you don't kill them with it though. Resources spent with no rewards gained if you don't get the kill.

MrHaZeYoMar 14, 20182 votes

Ya that I do agree with.

I mean their are some exceptions, like pushing someone out of a fight around dragon to sway the fight in your favor or something.

But my original point was that she does burst lol,but she won't always assassinate (which is what I actually consider a 100-0 whether it's from Zed or Syndra or Xeyah)

CrettMar 12, 201816 votes

sustained vs burst, coupled with crit's hyperscaling and manaless nature. AD damage is inexhaustible until the ADC is dead, while mages typically have one rotation and/or mana limitations

ADCs are "supposed" to melt tanks, but at times i think it's too extreme. sometimes tanks pretty much have to depend entirely on team coordination for their own survival against even a lone ADC, which sometimes makes sense, but at other times can feel a bit unfair.

5050BSMar 12, 20181 votes

This is why mages should be designed like Swain.

One spell that does good damage but only mid range on a short (<4s) CD, a CC on a mid ranged CD and a Damaging Utility on a longer CD then a powerful Ult on a normal Ult CD.

Its STUPID that mages cant 1v1 AD champs

CrettMar 12, 20187 votes

to be fair many mages in the right circumstances can blow AD champs into oblivion with that one rotation, or pick them out better than other champs can

at least, as long as that AD champion isn't also building tanky.

mages have their strengths and many of them stand a chance in a 1v1 as long as they are only fighting squishy champs. god help you if you are karthus vs darius in a 1v1

IfnethMar 13, 20182 votes

Nitpick: Garen might be a better example.

CrettMar 13, 20181 votes

that's fair

C9 Squeeky Mar 13, 20183 votes

Syndra

5050BSMar 12, 20188 votes

This is because of Crit and LifeSteal both of which are broken in the game.

This is also why Yasuo is so toxic to the game.

Yasuo vs Kayne in all for one guess who wins 1v1 with same gold at all level of the match? Yasuo. He out heals Red Kayne....

If AP had items that gave a Crit like stat for spells then MR would be just as useless.

LordGeovanniMar 13, 20181 votes

Mr is useless if you get hit by any spell more than once they reason why mages dont feel mr is effective is because they 80% full tanks in 1 rotation and that now useless tank has to walk / flash away and recall but they dont consider it a victory because they didnt get that sweet sweet kill.

ÈvilMortyMar 13, 20187 votes

Building one mr item can shut down a mage long enough for you to get a hold of them Building 3-4 armor items cant make you last 3-4 seconds against an adc Its that simple and it needs to be fixed

DontTouchMyBallMar 12, 20186 votes

Inb4 biased ADC mains downvote your thread to oblivion. You're a corageous man OP, I admire you

Fuhrer UsagiMar 12, 20184 votes

Don't qoute me on this but doesn't twitch do ad and AP? Usually I grab items that have both MR/armor on it and large amounts hp tends to make it easy to get around most of the armor pent people have.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 12, 201816 votes

Twitch does not do AP damage. His passive (the poison) does a small amount of true damage, but not enough to actually mean anything in tank busting.

Fuhrer UsagiMar 12, 20189 votes

I said don't qoute me on this.[sg-soraka]

CrettMar 12, 20189 votes

actually you are right. Twitch's E has AP scaling, although it still deals entirely physical damage for whatever reason

I Main SwainMar 13, 20184 votes

a couple months ago i had a game as rammus where i was fed with 600 armor and the enemy tristana proceeded to casually kill me in less than 3 seconds with her e and a few aa's. all she had for armor pen was a last whisper

ShablagooMar 13, 20184 votes

Tbh I dont feel resistence helps against anything dmg is just to high, and also I would like to know what items twitch had if he had item 3036 I can see why item 3047 item 3143 item 3075 you only have 110 armor left from that build if he did, plus with the passive he is for sure hitting heavy, however tbh it seems like nothing really counters adc dmg it is to reliabe and really not fair. However ap dmg is just as high item 3135 from item 3001 item 3065 item 3194 105 is left from this which actually doesnt even incorporate the total mr value you have as it removes 40% of all mr. It is obviously going to seem like ad is doing more specifically because adc especially do not have a counter, if twitch ults you run away or kill him, for mages it is dodge and get more health, it isnt hard to see why you think it but you need to put the full info so ppl can really evaluate it.

JmmanMar 13, 20183 votes

By your statement here is seem Riot has the damage reversed and Mages should be the major damage. Since there damage can be avoided and has "mana" to limit there damage.

Ad on the other hand just clicks and you can't advoid it.

Interesting.....

ShablagooMar 13, 20181 votes

No lol, I love how you took that completely out of context. Dmg is to high in general I guess that should have been specified. However Adc dmg is probably out of everyone is the highest, because of the fact that their dmg isnt gated at all thats why they seem so problematic. My post wasnt a buff mages post, mages after adc are one of the most useful things in the game because not only do they provide dmg but almsot always do they provide some utility to the team close to that of supports, which not only helps there team by stunning them but also by the stun or root what ever it is dealing dmg.

5050BSMar 14, 20182 votes

You are right, Riot does have it wrong. Mages should be the Burst and the "Dont get near him" until he has used his combo and spells are on CD. But that is not the case.

GripaAviaraMar 13, 20183 votes

Full build ADC vs Full build tank, I still need at least 6 seconds to kill the tank. Enought to get destroyed if the enemy team has a good coordination. The "problem" with tank is usually that you can't carry on your own, you need teammates to give the damage

ShiznyteMar 12, 20182 votes

Abyssal does AoE damage amp... you maybe thinking out Adaptive Helm which reduces AP damage from the same source (like a teemo poison)

Muten ShenseiMar 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Abyssal does AoE damage amp... you maybe thinking out Adaptive Helm which reduces AP damage from the same source (like a teemo poison)

thank you .. fixed, sorry had brain fart

C9 Squeeky Mar 13, 20182 votes

Most ADCs build atk speed/crit, they pump out sustained DPS where as mages come in bursts and CDs. an ADC's "CD" is their attack speed. ADCs are incredibly squishy, tanks are durable and have CC to disable the enemy ADC while YOUR carries blow them up. You aren't supposed to try to 1v1 ADCs as a tank, you're not a bruiser/diver/assassin.

YuGiHoMar 13, 20182 votes

sometimes i look a the damage i do to a tank as a mage and im like "wow he must have allot or mr" then i look at his items and its almost all hp and armor. unless u are a dps mage like azir/ryze/cass most ap cant deal with tanks so mid-;ate game they just transition into a 2nd support for the adc or become a grenade with the purpose of killing the enemy adc in exchange for your own life.

Leaf on BushMar 13, 20182 votes

AD Armor VS MR Armor

Don't exist, just like "ad damage" and "ap damage" which are also not the correct terms.

[sg-shisa]

Probs feedingMar 14, 20181 votes

I mean, you might die in 4 autos but the rest of your team will die in 1-2.

Muten ShenseiMar 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kaí Suh Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JwnzEw0w,comment-id=001c,timestamp=2018-03-14T03:25:03.270+0000)

I mean, you might die in 4 autos but the rest of your team will die in 1-2.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]