Boards›Gameplay

Is it safe to say Maokai's rework was a complete failure?

Tormentula··12 votes·1,293 views

> on release

Maokai was extremely underwhelming. The intention of the rework wanted to push him more into a jungler or a niche top laner from the safe generalist top laner he was. He saw playrate in those positions for a short time, but that was mostly because nobody knew how bad he actually was in those positions.

> after buffs

The buffs barely mattered but what really changes was people started messing around with AP maokai support, which became extremely unhealthy and toxic to play against with how much damage his sapplings did, and if you got jungle control he basically one shot any squishy with 3+sapplings.

> after nerfs to AP mao support

Maokai support died and everybody was happy, however pre-rework maokai was pretty ok and seen with a decent (but not majorly noticable) playrate. However after maokai support died, he didn't even return top lane, instead he actually dropped and current sits at a 0.8% playrate and a 49.36% winrate on OP.gg. He also has only 48.84% winrate in the support role with 0.71%. Maokai, in total has less than 2% playrate in platinum+ across two roles, and the jungle position there is no data for when that's the intended role the reworked wanted him to be.

I guess its safe to say the rework failed and put maokai in a worse spot? The rework either was too good and oppressive (AP support) or became entirely too weak (what we're seeing now).

I noticed there are buffs on the PBE but do you think those buffs will be enough to restore his top lane or bring him into the jungle? This is like malzahar again where I honestly can't see how they'll fix this.. his ultimate just does not fit his kit well and is too underwhelming to try and make fit in any particular playstyle, especially in higher elo where vision control and flanks are a bit more oppressive usually.

18 Comments

oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votes

Maokai Nature's Grasp (R)
cooldown lowered from 120/110/100 to 120/100/80 range increased from 2500 to 3000

this dont help at all...

Illâoi Evê Siôn2 votes

I think the range increase might. I often see the roots just barely miss enemies when I've caught up to them to CC them.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

not really cuz its still slow as fuk... and you easily can just walk away from it

oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votes

i have made a few post on how with maokai's reworked KIT can be effective and work if they tweak a few things

1st off his ult moves to slow, it needs to have faster movement speed when casted 2nd the cd of his ult is too long needs to be lowered by 15seconds at each rank 3rd the stun duration on his W is shit... and even when maxed it only goes from 1sec to 1.4 seconds and 4th give him a slight boost in base ad and base attack speed early levels 1-3 even if you take away from later scaling

if this was done i think with out changing his damage ratio's or buffing any tank stats would make him more viable

and he can be fine if they do what i state with his ult and give him slightly early game buffs on his auto attacks and attack speed and give his W more duration on root.

what makes him bad is his stupid bad early game , in the past when his E had damage on impact even in bad lanes he could at least cs some now he cant even do that...

so to make up for it buff his early ad lvls 1-3 and attack speed , make his W worth putting more then 1 point into

HalcyonDweller2 votes

I dunno, the ultimate is cool and it does fit well enough.

The other stuff about his kit I generally agree with.

They needed to increase interaction and counter-play, not just shuffle around his power budget.

Saplings got too much power without being given a trade-off for how un-interactive / lacking counter-play they are.

IMO what he needs is to have some of his power in saplings gated by requiring him to auto or cast a spell to hit the enemy, and maybe even making them heal him with his passive when he does that rather than dealing so much extra damage.

Moooose32 votes

He's decent ish in aram does that count? lol

HateDaddy2 votes

I think he's fine personally

He's not overbearing while still being incredibly hard to kill and disruptive

Less stat checking and more gameplay. I'd call that a success.

Tobias Brackner1 votes

Nah, he's fine. He's the same tree he's always been just with a new ult and a few different little tricks.

Arakadia1 votes

His ult is better, just needs buffs. He's more niche too I guess.

And they moved his % health damage. So it did a few good things atleast.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

No, it is not safe to say that.

Was he released underpowered? Definitely. Did Riot work to get him to a good spot? Also definitely.

From a look at the stats, he looks fairly good now:

http://current.lolalytics.com/champion/Maokai/Jungle/

58.86% winrate for the best users is top 10 in the game.

And I won't be surprised if he is even stronger in 7.13, since they are buffing the tank jungle items.

Tormentula1 votes

You do realize that 58.86% winrate is backed up by 0.61 pickrate?

The only reason that has a decent winrate is because not even 3 quarters of a percent actually play that. There's not really a good sample pool to say that's good performance.

Awhile back, aurelion jungle was in the top 10 best jungles because there was like .25% playrate and every game was won. That statistic doesn't mean anything, it goes by winrate alone without looking at how meta it actually is.

Illâoi Evê Siôn1 votes

He seems to hard counter certain champions with his passive, which isn't all that fun to play against.

Bârd1 votes

Yes, but it's also fairly easy to get around, especially in teamfights.

Killing him with right clicks instead of spells makes his passive charge more slowly. Just don't let Cassiopeia be the one to take him on, and he'll die eventually.

He still has to hit something to get his passive off. Keep a distance with CC and kiting to deny him that auto.

Healing is healing. Ignite, Mortal Reminder, and Morellonomicon will all shut him down pretty hard.

Bârd1 votes

No, not at all.

The rework did three things.

  • Shifted power from W to E.
  • Tweaked the inner workings of his passive.
  • Replaced his ultimate.

Before the rework, Sapling Toss was pretty useless. You could use it to waveclear, but ever since the nerfs it wasn't even able to clear the back line. The damage was laughable late game. It was the hardest ability in his kit to use successfully, but it had the lowest reward out of any of them. Twisted Advance, by comparison, had far too much power loaded onto it. It gave untargetability, mobility, and high damage on a low CD, almost single handedly making him a threat. Shifting power, even though it was executed poorly initially, was an obvious call. Post rework, Twisted Advance still a good spell, but its damage is no longer absurd for its reliability. Sapling toss is actually a meaningful spell after lane phase now, not only because it does some considerable damage but also because the extended duration in bushes gives him pretty good late game vision control.

The passive change was pretty minor, but good over all. The only thing I'm not huge on is how it changes his attack time; it just feels clunky. Aside from that, it's a large heal that comes in for some clutch situations. He's worse against comps that don't rely on spells for damage, but he is a god amongst men when he gets to fight a Cassiopeia, Ezreal, or Ryze. This is a good thing; he's no longer the right tree for the job against every lineup.

The ult change was absolutely for the better. The old one was bland, generic, and just had to go. The new one, on the other hand, defines him late game. The ult starts out too slow to hit anything, yes, but if you use it in a way that they can see it coming that early, you're using it wrong. You wouldn't walk into the middle of the lane to use Crowstorm, would you? The wave ramps up quite rapidly, both in terms of its effects and its actual speed. Maokai is a flanking initiator or counterinitiator. Your entire purpose is to use your ultimate at an angle from which they can't see it coming, and then use your other skills to make sure they get hit. Hold them down with W, knock them into it with Q, or cut off their main escape route with a bush full of saplings ready to hug.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

The only design failure of this game is the entire Marksman class.

crzymdscntst1 votes

I remember when they first released Maokai, his Saplings (E) were supposed to be vision-oriented, with damage as a fun little trap side effect. It'd be nice to see them go back to doing that as a focus for the skill.

His old dps reduction ultimate was good AND powerful. The current game design however means that no amount of dps reduction is useful against core dps itemization. It's primary function now is to stall. I believe the champs that are most likely to get broken, scale off defensive stats for dps.

So overall, I don't think Mao's rework was a complete failure, because it does fix some of his issues. Moreso though, it highlights the sort of design that's been pretty unhealthy in the past.

The Deckowner1 votes

It is a fucking failure because they reworked his R only to immediately release Galio which basically have the same R.

ITz Revan1 votes

I overlooked this thread the other day when i 1st saw it. Now I just played against this and I have to agree with the thread starter 100%.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Tormentula

If Ryze gets his 4th rework...
Memes & Games83 comments
241
votes
Who at riot comes up with these?!?!?
Memes & Games51 comments
195
votes
It is finally here... Arclight Yorick!
Story, Art, & Sound107 comments
138
votes
So my sister walks into my room...
Memes & Games61 comments
112
votes
Riot, people would be playing Twisted Treeline if you supported it at all.
Gameplay42 comments
110
votes
I lost all my masteries
Memes & Games27 comments
109
votes