Gee, I wonder why AD Shaco is dead
Edit: I feel like Shaco is becoming a skirmisher. He is good at 1v1s, makes good picks, not as much burst, boxes have CD before they activate, etc.
Oglaf38 votesBecause being a Marksman (i.e "ADC") gives you certain privileges not granted to other roles/classes since Riot wants those Champions to be "better" than everyone else to "carry the match".
Don't expect a "fix" to bring them down to other Champions' level anytime soon. It aint happening.
metabuser6 votesThat is very true and I hope Riot will address the power of ADCs some day
Oglaf8 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-12-11T20:43:18.839+0000)
That is very true and I hope Riot will address the power of ADCs some day
The current state of affairs seems to be how they intended it to be though.
As I was saying, they want it to be like this. It won't be changing unless something drastic happens.
Rivuo5 votesThe current state of affairs seems to be how they intended it to be though.
As I was saying, they want it to be like this. It won't be changing unless something drastic happens.
Yeah riot definitly wants adcs to be better
Thats why
You're right. From the looks of it, Riot definitly wants adcs to be opstupid
If you're going to make a post atleast let it make sense.
metabuser3 votesYeah riot definitly wants adcs to be better
Thats why
Fervor got hard nerfed
CoC mastery invalidates any adc damage for an initial 3-4 seconds
Ninja tabi buff a while ago was the most solid buy now
Removal of armor pen
You're right. From the looks of it, Riot definitly wants adcs to be opstupid
If you're going to make a post atleast let it make sense.
Vayne's tumble stacks with crit, Caitlyn's headshot stacks with crit, fervor we not nerfed for 3 months, and CoC just got nerfed
Rivuo6 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=00030000000000010000,timestamp=2016-12-11T22:00:08.406+0000)
Vayne's tumble stacks with crit,
That has nothing to do with adcs being oppressive and allowed to abuse everything. Thats just riot buffing vayne.
Caitlyn's headshot stacks with crit,
That has nothing to do with my post. We are on 2 different subjects.
fervor we not nerfed for 3 months, and CoC just got nerfed
Fervors last change was 2 weeks ago.
And CoC just got introduced.. It being nerfed by 2% when it still gives 5% now is still stupid... We can all agree on that
metabuser3 votesIt has to do very much about your post. If Vayne's Q was on any other champion Rito would of nerfed that crap faster then you can say "Shaco"
Rivuo5 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=0003000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T22:06:40.811+0000)
It has to do very much about your post. If Vayne's Q was on any other champion Rito would of nerfed that crap faster then you can say "Shaco"
Almost how graves yasuo and lee sin are invulnerable to nerfs eh?
metabuser2 votesThose champions you listed have more counterplay then vayne
Rivuo2 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=000300000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T22:11:18.838+0000)
Those champions you listed have more counterplay then vayne
I agree. But you cant think ''adcs are invulnerable to nerfs'' when i just listed 4 things that happened that put them in the mediocre spot they are in now.
They are no longer a carry. Junglers and mids decide who win
metabuser2 votesI agree, jungle right now is very strong. But it doesn't excuse vayne and Caitlyn
Rivuo3 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=00030000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T22:19:54.300+0000)
I agree, jungle right now is very strong. But it doesn't excuse vayne and Caitlyn
It doesnt excuse you from saying adcs are invulernable to nerfs because they are weaker than they ever been at the moment ( S6 )
metabuser2 votesCaitlyn and Vayne are not immune to nerfs. But their nerfs sure are small. Right now the only mediocre adcs are MF, Lucian, Urgot, Ashe, Tristana and corki. The rest are pretty good
metabuser2 votesI said nothing about ADC's being immune to nerfs. I was talking about Shaco's AD build and how it got gutted very hard
Hella Kaiser2 votesboth shut up. we all know riot loves ADCs. ADCs should be balanced around being glasscannons that without ally peel are dead af. but riot keeps balancing ADCs as they are intended to 1v1 people. listen, i mained Draven. that guy could 1shot people and penta 1v5 when ahead. and he was weaker to cc than other ADCs. i saw afk Jinx getting triples, i saw everything for how ADCs are balanced. they are ment to be good in Teamfight but balanced to 1v1 other roles. how can this be good balance? how? they can be nerfed. they NEED to be nerfed, but riot will never give 'em the nerf the deserve.
Oglaf5 votesYeah riot definitly wants adcs to be better
Thats why
Fervor got hard nerfed
CoC mastery invalidates any adc damage for an initial 3-4 seconds
Ninja tabi buff a while ago was the most solid buy now
Removal of armor pen
You're right. From the looks of it, Riot definitly wants adcs to be opstupid
If you're going to make a post atleast let it make sense.
Except nobody is talking about items nor masteries here. Nor are those exclusively affecting ADCs, either.
if you are going to make a post, at least make it relevant to the discussion.
Rivuo1 votesNor are those exclusively affecting ADCs, either.
Fervor doesnt exclusively affect adcs?
CoC mastery on hard engage champions (
Do not exclusively affect adcs? Their primary focus when they go in?
Ninja tabi doesnt exclusively affect adcs? Adcs dont use auto attacks to do damage and ninja tabi dont reduce auto attack damage by 12%?
Removal of armor pen doesnt exclusively affect adcs?
Oh boy.... Goodluck in your games my 24% win rate friend.
metabuser2 votesNinja tabi? Shaco, Rengar, and Kha Zix. Armor pen? Rengar, Kha Zix, Talon, Zed,
Rivuo1 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=0003000000000001000100000001,timestamp=2016-12-11T22:28:11.936+0000)
Ninja tabi? Shaco, Rengar, and Kha Zix. Armor pen? Rengar, Kha Zix, Talon, Zed,
Khaz main damage isnt from basic attacks
Talons main damage isnt from basic attacks
Zeds main damage isnt from basic attacks
Rengars damage is from basic attacks but implying he doesnt gain like 30% free AD 12% wont do much.
metabuser2 votesRengar being OP doesn't excuse the fact that he uses lethality.
Rivuo1 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=000300000000000100010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T22:53:59.201+0000)
Rengar being OP doesn't excuse the fact that he uses lethality.
Lol i completely agreed with you and you still try to prove me wrong
Pretty fuckin sad.
metabuser4 votesIm not gonna argue with you if all you're doing is insulting me
Kalarepa3 votesADC mains won't allow it. Actually, right now they're asking for buffs, because apparently being picked in every single game is a sign of "weak" class.
HazyCloud72 votesThe sad, but accurate truth.
Junkο9 votesIdk what you are trying to say, these abilities all work in a completely different way.
Shaco passive guarantees a critical strike, Vayne Q will crit if the AA crit, Cait's passive damage scales with crit, but the damage cannot crit, the AA can still crit normally though.
And Shaco's Q damage will crit if he attacks from behind just like Vayne, so I don't get what you are trying to say.
AD Shaco is dead because they gutted every part of his kit and gave him AP scalings to compensate, and now they want to nerf the AP scalings too.
metabuser3 votesYeah, I guess thats true. It would be so much better if crit scaled with his passive like Caitlyn. Right now building crit on Shaco just feels useless.
The Yetii Rider2 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T19:31:31.646+0000)
Yeah, I guess thats true. It would be so much better if crit scaled with his passive like Caitlyn. Right now building crit on Shaco just feels useless.
So don't build crit on him? Assassins are supposed to build lethality and CDR.
Big Lincoln7 votesbecause the only physical damage he has is auto attacks, so lethality is awful on him and CDR is still worse than crit
crit is and will always be his strongest option for physical burst.
The Yetii Rider1 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T19:51:11.828+0000)
because the only physical damage he has is auto attacks, so lethality is awful on him and CDR is still worse than crit
crit is and will always be his strongest option for physical burst.
Then what's the incentive to build him AD at all? His kit negatively synergizes with building crit and his AP build is effective.
metabuser4 votesExactly! but whats the catch? they nerf Ap Shaco
The Yetii Rider3 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T20:03:43.601+0000)
Exactly! but whats the catch? they nerf Ap Shaco
Because it was too strong. After the nerf he will still kill people, it will just take longer.
metabuser3 votesI do agree he was very strong without the nerfs, but part of Shaco's identity was he was versatile. He could build bruiser, AP, AD, and tank. now he only has AP that is bursty ( which is not even that bursty with the nerfs)
The Yetii Rider4 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T20:07:01.757+0000)
I do agree he was very strong without the nerfs, but part of Shaco's identity was he was versatile. He could build bruiser, AP, AD, and tank. now he only has AP that is bursty ( which is not even that bursty with the nerfs)
Part of pre rework Sion's identity was his mix of AD and AP.
Part of pre rework Poppy's identity was difficulty farming in lane.
Part of pre rework Sona's identity was vastly improving her team's ability to take turrets.
All of these statements have something in common: they're irrelevant. The point of a rework as opposed to nerfs and buffs is to change the way a champion builds and plays.
Shaco doesn't have an AD identity anymore.
metabuser4 votesAll of those champions you listed got fully reworked. All of Shaco's rework was the boxes on his ult.
The Yetii Rider1 votes[{quoted}](name=NickTheGreat PIE,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T20:13:12.187+0000)
All of those champions you listed got fully reworked. All of Shaco's rework was the boxes on his ult.
Shaco got perfect invisibility for 4.5 seconds and a % missing health magic damage on his E.
metabuser4 votesWhat's the point of invisibility and missing health % if you don't do damage? Right now he can barely 100-0 somebody when fed
IcyPepper1 votesRight now he can barely 100-0 somebody when fed
Should an assassin be able to 100-0 people when not fed though?
I thought they were supposed to 80-0 or something.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm not an assassin main :/
Raj Te Lag Comp6 votesThe point is not 100-0 someone when not fed, it's that it should happen if Shaco IS fed
Oglaf5 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=JGzqhlfY,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-11T20:25:48.971+0000)
Shaco got perfect invisibility for 4.5 seconds and a % missing health magic damage on his E.
His box stacking was severely nerfed, too.
IlIlllllllllIlll2 votesCan't ranger do his job and better?
Shaco my BFF6 votes"It was too strong" - ha.ha.ha
E 5 base damage at rank 1, 125 at rank 5. Shaco has no base stats, he only scales and now Riot is even removing scaling, removing 200 base damage from his R. Shaco is being dumpstered.
Big Lincoln10 votesbecause pre-rework Shaco's backstab applied to all of his damage, which stacked up with his Q's guaranteed 220% crit that benefit from IE even more, he had a lot of damage. Also because when he had the old Q crit, it always applied Shiv's full damage. Old backstab was a consecutive bonus to all attacks, so he could do a lot of damage provided he stayed behind you. He had 100% bonus AD scaling on his E so items like Hydra didn't go to waste either, making him a very efficient split pusher if he happened to struggle with assassinating.
New Shaco has no reason to build any AD whatsoever; there's a reason we've all switched to AP.
Ulquiorra9955 votesI guess what he's trying to say is that critting completely negates the bonus damage from Backstab. If Vayne with Q crits, the Q bonus damage does not dissapear; it still gets dealt. Same with Caitlyn; a headshot crit will not deal just her regular crit damage, but also the ability's own damage. And one of the main arguments is that those two can do it from relative safety without having to blow their only escape and bothering to flank an enemy. Mind you, a single critical Headshot from Caitlyn, with her first two items being IE and Hurricane has more AD scaling packed in than Shaco's entire kit.
And there's a reason why Shaco can not just build like other AD assassins; he has no scalings to do so. For example, Talon and Zed both have multiple abilities that scale well with AD as well as ultimates which are powerful burst tools. Shaco has only one reliable AD scaling spell in his kit, meaning that the bulk of his damage has to come from autoattacks.
metabuser3 votesI guess what he's trying to say is that critting completely negates the bonus damage from Backstab. If Vayne with Q crits, the Q bonus damage does not dissapear; it still gets dealt. Same with Caitlyn; a headshot crit will not deal just her regular crit damage, but also the ability's own damage. And one of the main arguments is that those two can do it from relative safety without having to blow their only escape and bothering to flank an enemy. Mind you, a single critical Headshot from Caitlyn, with her first two items being IE and Hurricane has more AD scaling packed in than Shaco's entire kit.
And there's a reason why Shaco can not just build like other AD assassins; he has no scalings to do so. For example, Talon and Zed both have multiple abilities that scale well with AD as well as ultimates which are powerful burst tools. Shaco has only one reliable AD scaling spell in his kit, meaning that the bulk of his damage has to come from autoattacks.
Exactly
GrReaper966 votes
Touch My Box6 votesI just don't understand why he is always the target of their abuse.. His early ganks are shit because 5 base damage.. His clear is shit..cause no AoE After a gank he usually has to recall cause no recovery option.
His late game is good, but thats only because he spends 30 minutes of being a worthless burden that he should be good.
Other Assassins can either jump straight out if they fail the kill (Zed, Fizz, LeBlanc, Yasuo) Or are given shields/tankiness to survive long enough for someone else to become a threat (Diana)
Shaco will jump in and blow his Q/Hex/E combo. If they don't die you have to pray to god that they aim the wrong clone or just don't decide to cleave you out.
High Risk, Average reward and if your team doesn't understand how he works, you just cop 30 minutes of abuse.
I just don't see why he is being nerfed for excelling at the one thing he was designed to do, when lee sin can do everything better than everyone.
Quantum Lotus5 votesAn adc should not have more burst than an assassin unless that is the way the champion is built. Varus and corki are meant to burst, dps auto attackers shouldn't.
What is the point of an assassin if you can just play a ranged character who can do the job better? cough cough VAYNE
Ranged auto attackers should not be bursting like an assassin.
datfatguy2 votesVayne's tumble and Caitlyn's head shots stack with crit, but Graves can't have his cigar back?
MrWasjig4 votesHe vapes now, canon.
EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votesthey want him to build assassin items not adc items