On the Proposed Zoe Changes in Patch 8.17

Everyday Legends··9 votes·4,309 views

Riot, I am reaching out to you here.

Zoe has been through a lot. She's had a painful amount of nerfs and there's always been a very vocal community against her. If you want to reduce her numbers, fine. If you want to push her playstyle in a particular direction, fine. I just have one request regarding the changes being tested in Patch 8.17:

Please, please, please do not take away the trap aspect of Sleepy Trouble Bubble.

Sleepy Trouble Bubble and its trap are iconic and an important part of who Zoe is, both as a Champion and as a character. Take a look at each of these:

https://i.imgur.com/7ZBSTIp.png https://i.imgur.com/cUMZNlV.png https://i.imgur.com/kcMem0n.png

Each one is beautiful and unique, like a snowflake. These are all so expressive and say so much about the skin associated with them, whether it be the visual effects, the animations, or the different sounds the bubble makes when it becomes the trap. It's clear a lot of work went into making each one special, and I know I'm not the only person who feels this way. To take this away from Zoe would rob her of an important piece of her identity.

If you need to make the trap more manageable from a gameplay perspective, then allow me to propose alternative options:

  1. Reduce the size of the trap----about 20% or so might suffice. This would make it easier to avoid or maneuver around, while still allowing players to appreciate the visuals of the ability itself.
  2. Reduce the duration of the trap----maybe 3.25 seconds instead of 4 seconds. It would not be an obstacle for as long as it currently is, but gives us enough time to admire it before it fades away.
  3. Reduce the bonus damage of the trap----if the target fell asleep because of the trap, they take 50% of the bonus damage that they would've taken if they'd been put to sleep by a direct hit. This may be harder to implement, but it would still encourage landing direct hits while making the trap less punishing.

Please, I beseech you, do not take this away from Zoe. Let her have this.

24 Comments

UnboundHades10 votes

rewarding her for missing her e should not be a thing when her r lets her jump in front of you to hit it in the first place along with her w allowing her to get protobelts and glp to make it easier to hit your changes wouldnt change the main problem with it

Crimson Zeppelin6 votes

{quoted}

rewarding her for missing her e should not be a thing when her r lets her jump in front of you to hit it in the first place along with her w allowing her to get protobelts and glp to make it easier to hit your changes wouldnt change the main problem with it

Which comes to the question. Why are you not hiding in your minon wave and in point blank range of a burst mage. Syndra will punish you 600 times harder if you pull that off in her face.

Zoe's E cannot pierce through minions at all. If this rework gets through she will be compensated to burst 2 times more harder with Q and damage will be added on E. NOBODY will win.

7thHeaven3 votes

Her problem is not point blank E. It's 999999 range E when you throw it through terrain.

Crimson Zeppelin1 votes

{quoted}

Her problem is not point blank E. It's 999999 range E when you throw it through terrain.

YES. I like you get how she needs to get nerfed. She literally has utility that are...well infinite in parts of her kit. Such as unlimited use of W, and in this case unlimited range of E.

Adding 70 mana on W, scaling to 100 will be a good call. Also actually adding range to E is definitely a good way. Personally I really support the mana cost nerf. You can see how much mana she would need to proc w more than 2 times, and on Zoe's side she would need to consider buying mana items, which can go both ways. win-win

Everyday Legends7 votes

rewarding her for missing her e should not be a thing

I really don't like this argument. Zoe is not "rewarded" for not getting a direct hit. She sets a trap. She's a trickster. Creative strategy and gameplay decisions are part of who she is. I'd like to repeat myself on this part because this is important: Creative strategy and gameplay decisions are part of who she is.

Let me ask you: is Teemo "rewarded" for not bouncing a mushroom perfectly? Is Maokai "rewarded" for not tossing a Sapling right where he needs it?

What about Jinx's Flame Chompers? Why not just have her toss out three bombs that need to hit the enemy to detonate instead of setting traps?

What about Jhin's Lotuses? If he didn't place it directly on the Champion, why not have it disappear after 10 seconds instead of the 2 minutes it currently gets?

Then there's Ziggs and his Hexplosive Minefield. If he didn't drop it right on top of the enemy, surely he's "rewarded" by having the 11 little bombs where he aimed at, right?

And there are still other examples.

If you think these are not fair comparisons, then let me remind you Sleepy Trouble Bubble also has an arming period, just like these abilities do. The bubble travels a certain distance, bounces, then becomes a trap.

In conclusion, setting traps is a part of many Champions' kits and are intended to match their playstyle, Zoe included. She is meant to predict her enemies decisions, plan accordingly, and make her move. It's how she's described in her Champion Spotlight. Removing the trap takes away from that.

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Everyday Legends,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IzEVdFEK,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-08-23T12:33:25.859+0000)

I really don't like this argument. Zoe is not "rewarded" for not getting a direct hit. She sets a trap.

That's not how Zoe plays. You don't see players thinking about placing zoning traps to funnel enemies because she is a burst champion. They try to land a direct hit with the bubble so they can combo and if they miss they still get their consolation prize.

It's just another example of CertainlyT designing his champions around doing anything and everything with no one around to harm his ego.

gorkygirl1 votes

Good Zoe's you do. When a good zoe player realizes they cant hit a backline with an e, theyll place it as a zoning tool.

Chembaron Yamada4 votes

All these other spells you mention are traps in the first place, not skillshots. They are delayed in their activation, that gives enemies time to react to them.

Zoe gets the best of 2 worlds, it is a skillshot that can hit directly to give the enemy less time to react to it, but if she misses then she gets a trap for the zone control.

Like, how can you seriously compare that to Jinx E? If you want the "why not" game, then we would have change Jinx' E to a skillshot, that roots every enemy it directly connects with immediatelly and give the traps on top of it. And that doesn't sound fun either.

I understand that you want to keep the trap, I think it is an iconic part of her kit, too. But the argument that she gets rewarded for missing is valid. Imagine if other skillshot would work like that.

DrMundo missed Q? Now it creates a zone damaging and slowing the next enemy walking over it. Pyke Missed Q, but hey, now there is a field stunning the enemy if he walks over it. Viktor Missed your E, no worries, it leaves a Corki package at this place for some seconds now.

The problem is that the enemy doesn't get rewarded enough for dodging. You managed to dodge a skillshot aimed at you, great, but the enemy still gets good zone control with the trap. Meanwhile other champions miss their skills and... that's it. No benefit from it, you missed, that sucks, move on.

Everyday Legends3 votes

You want to play this game? Very well, then.

Would you say that Miss Fortune's Make It Rain is a skill shot, or a zoning tool that restricts where an opponent can safely move around? One might even call it a "trap". The same principle can be applied to Gangplank's ultimate. Is Pantheon's ultimate for dealing damage to his enemies, or does he use it cut off their retreat? One might say the enemy is trapped between a rock and hard place, in this instance. Are Veigar's Event Horizon or Thresh's The Box skill shots, or are they traps you can set near enemies and put them in a tough spot?

The answer to all of these questions is "Both".

These abilities, like Sleepy Trouble Bubble, allow for flexibility in how they're used. You wouldn't say Miss Fortune "missed" her Make It Rain if she used it keep enemies from being able to run away. You'd call that an effective use of the utility that move offers. This Champions are not rewarded for "missing". They are rewarded for being creative with how they use their skill shots and by adapting to the situation.

But let's address your point, shall we?

Dr. Mundo, Pyke, Viktor----are any of these trickster Targonian Aspects with the power to bend reality itself? No?

One of the core principles of Champion design is having a cohesive theme. Consider the Nunu and Willump rework coming soon. Their theme is a childlike sense of imagination and fun. So throwing snowballs at enemies and rolling a huge pile of snow at them is in line with this theme. Then there's Shaco, a harlequin who looks like the stuff of nightmares. Using stealth to pop out of nowhere and jump-scare you, setting jack-in-the-box traps that induce fear, creating a doppelganger to explode when you think you have the advantage----this is all thematically consistent.

You know who's thematically consistent with "Hit-things-with-spells-and-skillshots-until-their-Health-disappears"? Brand, the bitter, vengeful guy who wants to find the World Runes just to watch the world burn.

That's not who Zoe is. She is creative, imaginative, and chosen to become the Targonian Aspect of Twilight because, rather than go for the obvious solution, she finds a different way to achieve her goals. So to take away her ability to be flexible and adaptive with her abilities would take away from who she is as a character.

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

To make my point clear: I agree that it is an iconic part of her kit and therefore probably should stay (but tbh, this sometimes doesn't stop Riot, they took away Ornn's unstoppable on W, because it was unhealthy, and it was iconic too).

I just say that I have to agree that Zoe gets rewarded for missing the spell. Or seen from the other side, it doesn't reward the enemy enough for dodging it.

Not necessarily a reason to remove that aspect, but I still think this statement is right.

Psyrix2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Everyday Legends,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IzEVdFEK,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-08-23T12:33:25.859+0000)

I really don't like this argument. Zoe is not "rewarded" for not getting a direct hit. She sets a trap. She's a trickster. Creative strategy and gameplay decisions are part of who she is. I'd like to repeat myself on this part because this is important: Creative strategy and gameplay decisions are part of who she is.

Let me ask you: is Teemo "rewarded" for not bouncing a mushroom perfectly? Is Maokai "rewarded" for not tossing a Sapling right where he needs it?

What about Jinx's Flame Chompers? Why not just have her toss out three bombs that need to hit the enemy to detonate instead of setting traps?

What about Jhin's Lotuses? If he didn't place it directly on the Champion, why not have it disappear after 10 seconds instead of the 2 minutes it currently gets?

Then there's Ziggs and his Hexplosive Minefield. If he didn't drop it right on top of the enemy, surely he's "rewarded" by having the 11 little bombs where he aimed at, right?

And there are still other examples.

If you think these are not fair comparisons, then let me remind you Sleepy Trouble Bubble also has an arming period, just like these abilities do. The bubble travels a certain distance, bounces, then becomes a trap.

In conclusion, setting traps is a part of many Champions' kits and are intended to match their playstyle, Zoe included. She is meant to predict her enemies decisions, plan accordingly, and make her move. It's how she's described in her Champion Spotlight. Removing the trap takes away from that.

i'm confused how people claim missing E is a reward.. when if the E was missed why would they walk backwards/to the side of it and back into that area??? The only thing it offers is Zoning from an area you wouldnt even be in if it was missed/dodged :/ I use it as a zoning tool when i want to pick up a shard/block off a choke point/jg entrance

gorkygirl2 votes

it's not always a missed e. sometimes you throw e for zone control. Either way, you have a clear indicator that zoe has no selfpeel or defenses when trap is on the ground so why arent you using your spells on her then?

Chembaron Yamada1 votes

To be fair, her W can be a really strong defensive factor as well.

gorkygirl1 votes

how so? She gets movespeed? So what. You need to punish missed skillshots

Chembaron Yamada2 votes

She gets movespeed, that alone oftenly helps her escape. She gets really fast with it, can't even tell anymore how many times a Zoe escaped from my gank as a jungler just with her W movementspeed.

And she can get situational defense from it, too. Heal, barrier, flash, redemption, etc....

gorkygirl1 votes

honestly, that is really weak. it seems like youre just not accounting for movespeed when you throw your cc but w/e

either way, your laner should be punishing her as soon as she misses e

Pika Fox2 votes

Fine. Remove her trap. But also remove the casting delay on it and make it travel through minions so she can actually use it. Drowsy/sleep is already the single weakest hard CC in the game by leaps and bounds.

Orange Caramel7 votes

Gut Zoe

gorkygirl5 votes

nice attitude about the game. gut what you don't want to learn to play against. flame what you refuse to learn from. Everything is the champions fault, nothing is ever the players fault

Hayaishi5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Judge Taide,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IzEVdFEK,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-23T04:42:19.819+0000)

Gut Zoe

gut zoe

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

gut zoe

zut goe

Wizard Blaze3 votes

it is 2K18 and Rito made a champ that rewards you by missing your skillshot

Yummi Trash1 votes

please #justicefortheseagulls

IamWindowLicker1 votes

I feel like all the people complaining about Zoe are also the ones who’ve never actually played her to master her. I’m a M7 Zoe, I got her there as soon as I could. Zoe is a hard champion to play but fun and rewarding too. Have you ever seen people play Zoe in 1 for all and just shoot the Q forwards? People also don’t like Zoe because of her damage, she’s only strong if you land your skill shots which there are 2 and the combos aren’t easy to do either. I’m sorry you play something stupid into Zoe that’s “your main” that she’s absolutely curb stomps. If they do take the trap aspect away they should increase the range by half and they travel speed by a little. Morgana, Lux and Xerath all have long ass stun/ roots with range that more than doubles Zoe’s. I know her E goes through wall with massively increases the range but you still have to hit it. I don’t give a fuck what they do to Zoe I just hate hearing people bitch about her and how strong she’s is, when she’s only strong in the hands of people how really master her.

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