Why Jhin is strong with Lethality.

TyrekGoldenspear··35 votes·6,315 views

This is just an informative post to explain Lethality and why Jhin is so strong with it.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT A PLS NERF JHIN POST, THIS IS NOT A PLS DON'T TOUCH JHIN POST, THIS IS PURELY FOR INFORMATION.

Now then, in the spirit of Jhin, I will make this a four parter.

#What is Lethality?

Now then, this is the reworked armor pen stat. Now many people may not know the ratio, so here it is.

LETHALITY X (0.6 + 0.4 X TARGET CHAMPION'S LEVEL / 18) = FLAT ARMOR PEN

Now what does all that mean? Simply put, Lethality will turn into more and more armor pen as the enemy levels up, from 60% to 100%.

Example: Say a level 1 Ashe is the target. The 15 Lethality from item 3142 will turn into:

15 X (0.6 + 0.4 X 1/18) = 9.3 flat armor pen.

Against a level 18 Ashe this becomes 15 flat armor pen.

As a side note, the reason people are up in arms about lethality even though it's worse than flat armor pen was early on is because now there are more lethality items so the total flat armor pen you can get exceeds what you could get in the past, even with the reduced effectiveness. Imagine if this was still flat armor pen. Shudders.

#How does Lethality compare to Critical Strike on Marksmen?

Now then, a typical marksman

Ashe Hey.

Would have a choice: Build critical strike item 3031 or Lethality item 3147.

The advantage of a critical strike build is that while it has a slow start, it very quickly ramps up into a scary late game, especially if the marksman in question bought Lifesteal.

The downside of it, as we mentioned, is that the items are very expensive. You need a item 3086 item, a item 3031, and item 1053 to even get started to hurt things.

This means that poor Ashe has a pretty big shopping list that she has to completely cross out before she can start doing her job, and in Season 7, that usually means that the game is over before she can finish.

Now look at Lethality.

The shtick of Lethality is to have a "good" early and mid game, but this transitions into a garbage late game.

##But why? Why does Lethality fall off?

That is a good question hypothetical person, the same reason that Lethality is so good early. At the end of the day it is still flat armor pen. It doesn't increase your overall damage, it makes the damage you do hurt more.

Now then, the above wording sounds really vague and probably more than a little stupid, but all will become clear.

Lethality is just growing flat armor pen correct? So it stands to reason that as the game goes on, more armor is bought.

That level 1 Ashe with 21 armor that you MissFortune were laughing at as your full lethality build (item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 adds up to 45 lethality) knocked her armor down to 0 suddenly has 79 armor at level 18. Now don't make a mistake, Miss Fortune still hurts. But now it's late game and Ashe has item 3031 item 3085 item 3072, her damage ramps up much harder than the bounty hunter's does, and while Miss Fortune has fairly regular damage output, Ashe's damage spikes erratically with crit chance, up to absurd levels so that item 3072 can slurp up delicious HP for Ashe while MF's high and dry.

##But why can MF murder Ashe in a real game then?

Well, this is because of the big thing that lethality has on crit chance. it affects abilites as well. Like long range poke. This is why caster ADCs like Varus and Jhin work well with Lethality while certain ADCs simply are no good with lethality. Not to mention games are too short for the crit-loving ADCs to scale and the lethality loving ADCs are able to whoop them early and mid, winning the game before the crit loving ADCs can outscale.

This adds up to one thing that the crit build has on the lethality build, attack speed and tank killing

After a certain point, full armor tanks are going to shrug off your fancy lethality build and lock you down long enough for the enemy to murder you. It is common knowledge that a lethality ADC cannot draintank a tank because life steal is reletively inefficient on them because they don't do high enough numbers of damage.

A crit ADC... Well you all heard the story of the full tank Jinx that sat there and facetanked a tank that couldn't quite get to her.

##In conclusion.

Lethality = harder hitting autos and abilities. Autos fall off because atk speed and lifesteal are essential late game, and abilities can no longer be relied on as much.

Critical strike = harder and faster hitting autos that scale really well late game because atk speed and lifesteal are essential lategame.

#How does Jhin work with Lethality?

Now let's look at a special case of marksman, this guy.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/w5S8fFhLbZQ/maxresdefault.jpg

Seriously, look at him. He's the 4th most beautiful thing born in the universe. The top three being Aurelion Sol, Azir, and Draven in that order.

Like the others, this guy also has two choices to make, Critical strike and Lethality.

item 3508 Jhin = Crits more often, atk speed is somewhat wasted, lifesteal bad on him as well. Scary Damage lategame due to crits.

item 3147 Jhin = Crits less often, loses out on atk speed, lifesteal for more damage. Wait...

Yep, you guessed it. Because of Jhin's fixed atk speed and poor synergy with lifesteal, he has less of an opportunity cost when buying Lethality, and because of his auto crit 4th shot, he isn't completely without critical chance either.

Plus, he has 2 long range poke abilities that crit does absolutely nothing for (directly, but a standard crit build would give him roughly 20% bonus AD, indirectly boosting it), but Lethality will gladly boost: His W and his R.

The ONLY way that crit contributes directly to his abilities is by increasing his overall AD by 4% per every 10% crit chance and boosting his fourth shot thanks to his passive and his fourth shot on his ult. Their garunteed crits can be boosted by picking up an item 3031.

#Conclusion

Jhin snowballs harder with Lethality (His damage ramps up better with Lethality as the game goes on), feels the disadvantages less than other marksmen due to his naturally fixed attack speed, and his long range poke AND autos love Lethality.

#EDIT

Special thanks to Adebug, Hige, Joxcab, Victorious Yasuo and Charles Barklius for adding suggestions and corrections to make this more perfect.

72 Comments

Danny DeVito12 votes

why water is wet

TyrekGoldenspear33 votes

Actually, water isn't wet.

"Wet" is merely our perception of the sensation of fluids traveling and flowing across our skin.

BladeSingularity2 votes

I don't think you need to get into the science of it, but yeah, that's true.

Nice post, btw. Very informative.

Unlucky4715 votes

You probably think you're SOOOO smart huh? Well answer this. Why did my wife leave me?

TyrekGoldenspear30 votes

Becuase your relationship likely wasn't ideal.

You see in a working marriage there is a give and take, an eternal comprimise, a constant exchange and effort to maintian the love so-to-speak.

Clearly you did not provide something she needed, so she left to find it elsewhere.

Unlucky4724 votes

damn he's good

EbonyBladeJ889 votes

You're using reason and giving examples while also offering explanations on said examples.

That isn't supposed to be in Gameplay board posts, you're not following the rules, Kappa.

In all seriousness, great post. https://media.giphy.com/media/b9aScKLxdv0Y0/giphy.gif

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Much thanks, I don't do these often but I try to go for quality.

Ahristocats5 votes

{quoted}

Yep, you guessed it. Because of Jhin's fixed atk speed and poor synergy with lifesteal, he has less of an opportunity cost when buying Lethality, and because of his auto crit 4th shot, he isn't completely without critical chance either.

i actually forgot that but attack speed is still great on jhin for more ad and more movement speed

just not good enough compared to lethaltiy

BattleBossSoraka3 votes

As someone who just started maining Jhin and was wondering why exactly Lethality was better on him than raw damage or crit, I thank you. This is very informational. Bravo, sir.

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

This passion for Jhin compels me to offer nothing but the best.

http://i.imgur.com/2TeBXJq.gif?noRedirect

AmazoX1 votes

item 3070 Beautiful..This has bought tears of joy to my pathetic eyes. item 3070

Unlucky472 votes

This doesn't explain why lethality mf half healthed me, a 300 armor vi, with her double up and an auto.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Actually it does.

You aren't doing your job right if you are a 300 health Vi. You'd do pathetic damage in comparison to a balanced build.

Also, you need a good health pool as well, if you had 1000 health and 300 armor, and MF's skill and auto combined did only 500, then guess what, she still half healthed you.

Unlucky472 votes

I had 3.5k health and 300 armor

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Welp, half of 3500 health is ~1700 health.

MF's double up (especially of she got the second bounce on you) plus her auto with a dose of her passive with appropriate items can do this.

Unlucky472 votes

Yeah I know it can and all but it shouldn't. Like you mentioned in your post adcs build crit and attack speed to kill tanks. I can understand if I died in a couple of seconds to full crit attack speed mf but not dying almost instantly to someone that bought lord doms, duskblade and black cleaver. It negates my armor that I spent the whole game buying and if i'd known that my armor wasn't going to do anything I would've built full lethality vi too.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Actually that armor was what saved your life.

Realistically speaking, a lethality MF is trying to kill someone with her Q and an auto or two. If she doesn't she's got nothing left but her ult.

So seeing as she didn't kill you, you should have had free riegn to put her 6 feet under.

Unlucky474 votes

I can see that she didn't one shot me because of the armor and you're right, i could've killed her, but that's where the talon and pantheon came in. If the adc took half my health with barely anything, then you can imagine what a talon and pantheon could do to me. There wasn't any real way to do what I needed to do.

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Well at least you knew enough not to pick a 1v3 fight.

HudnofskiBleh1 votes

But... the swagalicious MLG 1v3s...

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Allow me to diagram out why 1v3s only work for certain champs.

Champion: Vayne

Enemies: Lux Udyr Blitzcrank

Vayne : Okay, let's do this.

ults, tumbles to dodge the blitz hook, condemns the Udyr, murders Lux with a few autoes, focuses Blitz down while kiting Udyr at the same time, then finishing off Udyr last.

Vayne Triple Kill! item 1036 Lux item 1036 Blitzcrank item 1036 Udyr

Vayne Removes shades. I am good.

Champion: Vi

Enemies: Lux Udyr Blitzcrank

Vi Time to go to pound town!

ults Lux, deletes her, then gets focused down by Blitz and Udyr, dying.

HudnofskiBleh1 votes

You actually made me laugh a lot. Thank you. I'm sorry for trying to make a tired, old MLG meme joke.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

No problem bud! Just doing my part to make the Gameplay Board a little happier to visit. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Sire Hippington2 votes

I think lifesteal beeing bad on Jhin is a big myth, as his 4th shot uses lifesteal, even the %missing health part, which can result in massive burst spikes. Also, item 3812 affects abillities aswell.

But other than that, crit vs flatpen/lethality well explained. It's the same it ever was: Flatpen helps with abillities, so it works for burst and poke, and it's especially powerfull vs squishys while also giving more power early in the game. The reason why lethality is that popular right now isn't just because it's a bit overtuned, but actually more because the circumstances favour it: Earlygame focused meta? Check. Squishy setups with rarly more than 1 tank, often even without any real tank? Check. Ad-casters beeing used because of their utillity and the abillity to impact fights from a very save range? Check. Utillity from lethality items that increases savety to compenstae for the lack of lifesteal? Check.

Crit on the other hand needs time to scale up, is usually less bursty with exeptions, is unreliable, especially early on, and doesn't support longranged poke as much. Therefor it grants superior dps, which is esepcially important vs tanks, and can result in 'continious burst' that shreds squishy that enter the range, it synergieses much better with lifesteal resulting in alot more survivabillity later on, and it offers more dps aswell as the potential to draintank vs dragon/baron.

resumed2 votes

took a long ass time to say jhin is an ability based ad and lethality scales with abilities whereas crit doesnt

TyrekGoldenspear4 votes

Yeah, but this way is more fun. ;)

The Yetii Rider2 votes

You completely missed the point of why Jhin scales so hard with Lethality. That's...that's actually commendably stupid of you.

Jhin scales hard with lethality because of his passive, Death in Four Acts. His fourth shot deals % missing health damage to its target. This damage is an increase in base damage that does not scale with AD and cannot critically strike. It is effectively a high amount of base damage with no scaling. And thus, similar to Dr. Mundo's Infected Cleaver, the only way to increase the damage of the ability is with penetration.

That is why Jhin is so powerful with Lethality. Everything you mentioned is secondary.

TyrekGoldenspear6 votes

?

Lethality = harder hitting autos and abilities

, loses out on atk speed, lifesteal for more damage. Wait...

less of an opportunity cost when buying Lethality,

I mean, I didn't completely miss it. I did draw attention to harder hitting autoes, just didn't focus on his passive fourth shot as much. :/

I didn't miss so much as glazed over it, but at least my work is still commendable.

RexSaur2 votes

Jhin needs more nerfs, the last one was a joke didnt do anything.

TyrekGoldenspear7 votes

Not the place. This is a place of art.

Please leave salt at the door.

Joxcab2 votes

Correction, flat armor pen cannot make armor negative. It stops after it equals the value of their current armor.

100% armor penetration would make it 0. So would 1 million armor penetration. So would 50 if they only had 50 armor.

Only reduction can make it go below 0.

100% reduction or penetration isn't ever realistically possible though, so it's a moot point.

Otherwise, good post.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Whoops, thanks for the correction. I'll change it when I get to a computer.

Hige2 votes

I liked the insight on your post! though there is something in which you're wrong

( item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 adds up to 45 lethality) made her armor literally negative

This isn't true, lethality CANNOT bring a target below zero armor, since you said it yourself, lethality is flat armor pen that scales with the enemy level

The only effect that brings armor down to negative is Armor reduction though, item 3071 doesn't bring your armor below zero either because they changed it from flat to % a while ago... there are champions though who could theoretically bring your armor below zero, but armor shred is applied first always

If Corki hits you with his full gatling gun, those -30 armor are applied first and after that any %armor pen is appplied and THEN lethality is thrown into the mix meaning that the instances in which armor goes below zero are literally impossible

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

Ah, didn't know that. I'll fix it later.

Edit: Fixed!

AdeBug1 votes

In more than one case, I could not tell if 'harder' meant 'stronger', or that it was 'harder' for them to do a specific thing.

"Plus, he has 5 potential long range poke abilites that crit does absolutely nothing for, but Lethality will gladly boost. His W and all four shots of his R." OK 3 things:

  • No one has 5 abilities. All champs have 4 abilities, and an auto to shoot with, so that's 5 ways, to begin with, to do dmg, but not 5 abilities.
  • The 4th shot of his auto and ult both crit, i don't get why u say crit does nothing for his 5 potential long range abilities. you made a joke using the number 4, but only cus of titles in the meme section, you really don't know this champ.
  • Lethality will gladly boost what? All 5, or his W and his R shots? Your phrasing and punctuation are confusing.
TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Whoops, can you give me specific examples so I can try for clarity?

AdeBug1 votes

"her damage ramps up much harder the bounty hunter's does" (also a 'than' is missing) stronger or weaker?

"harder hitting autos and abilities that fall off because atk speed and lifesteal are essential late game." by itself, I can't tell if you mean that it's harder TO HIT autos, the next paragraph could indicate that you're referring to strong autos, but it's just a weird phrasing overall, I can read it in many ways: -harder hitting autos and abilities (both autos and abilities are strong?) and if thats true: -harder hitting autos and abilities that fall off (both falling off?) -harder hitting autos, and abilities that fall off (strong autos, abilities falling off?)

"harder and faster hitting autos that scale hard late game because of atk speed and lifesteal being essential lategame." late game, they scale well or not really?

"Jhin snowballs harder with Lethality," same thing, and the context is not 100% clarifying on lethality being good on jhin, or not:

" [jhin] feels the disadvantages less than other marksmen due to his naturally fixed attack speed, and has more long range poke than any other marksman that gets amplified by Lethality." lethality can amplify either jhin's long range poke, or any other marksman, but speaking of amplification, it wouldn't be the first word to use when speaking of champs

:D sowwy, i can be very annoying when i care what other people are trying to say and honestly i just want to be sure that i got it, when i hear more than 1 possible meaning

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

So I hate to rain on your parade, but you know Jhin gains AD from his crit chance, right?

He was designed to have his ability damage scale with a standard crit build, Lethality is just overtuned enough to pass it

Also Ashe can't critically strike so that doesn't make much sense either

agbudar2 votes

what are you talking about? ashe CAN crit she just has to apply her passive to you in order to crit

she DOES NOT CRIT IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE YES. but she definitely crits

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted}

what are you talking about? ashe CAN crit she just has to apply her passive to you in order to crit

she DOES NOT CRIT IN THE TRADITIONAL SENSE YES. but she definitely crits

.

while Miss Fortune has fairly regular damage output, Ashe's damage spikes erratically with crit chance,

It isn't a crit because it isn't random, it's just a damage modifier

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Yes good sir I do.

Of course his kit was designed to work with the crit build, as it was first and around when he was designed.

What I am pointing out is that the new-fangled lethality build works better on him currently.

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted}

Yes good sir I do.

Of course his kit was designed to work with the crit build, as it was first and around when he was designed.

What I am pointing out is that the new-fangled lethality build works better on him currently.

In the OP you stated his 2 poke abilities gain nothing from crit chance, but 20% bonus AD is a lot for nothing

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

True, let me make that edit real fast. Thanks.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

"Lethality doesn't increase your overall damage,but only makes your damage hurt more" I lol'd Increasing your damage in anyway is increasing your damage overall But outside of that,very nice post(although nothing new to most people)

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Yeah, but my main goal was to get everyone up to speed, ya know?

Arduno1 votes

item 3036 item 3071 + lethality = bye bye armor? mehehehehe

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

To base armor? Oh yeah.

To a tank? Huehuehue.

Even if you can't kill in a rotation, Black Cleaver means that they are squishier for the rest of your team.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

cough cough cough

Zeal items are not expensive. Some of the cheapest in game actually.

However, BT and IE make up for it.

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