Tanks, %hp damage, lastwhisper and voidstaff.

The Ellimiist·Jan 2, 2015·6 votes·899 views

Here's my thoughts on the entire "tanks are weak" thing.

Remove BotrK. Im not sure what the logic behind this item was, didn't exist when I played in season 1. Seems to completely counter tanks by itself while obviously working well against any target.
Last Whisper/Voidstaff. I don't think there is any change that would make these non-standard picks. However, I would like to see them build into something while having the %pen lowered on the current item. Having a slot filled by a 2k item because it's just that good and it builds into nothing....

Also I doubt people will agree but %hp damage in general shouldn't even be a thing....

11 Comments

Deep Terror NamiJan 2, 20155 votes

Make tanks invincible; seems balanced.

GrimspeakeJan 2, 20151 votes

make LW/VS cost a lot more would be a better idea imo bump the prices up 500 a couple more waves for it baby

Gank Top 4 SuccJan 2, 20151 votes

Make the %Pen only affect bonus Armor and MR.

The EllimiistJan 2, 20151 votes

I can't agree with this since the base mr/ar can vary and there should be better methods of balance. Also when you have like 200-300 armor or mr the base isnt that important anyways

Gank Top 4 SuccJan 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ellimiist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ILKKxd99,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-02T20:46:35.665+0000)

I can't agree with this since the base mr/ar can vary and there should be better methods of balance. Also when you have like 200-300 armor or mr the base isnt that important anyways

Well by making it shred only bonus resistances, it still fills its role as a tank buster item (but doesn't do quite as much in this iteration. But a bonus is that it won't affect squishier champs like Mid laners or ADCs. LW and VS were created to counter tanks, but they actually end up doing more to squishies because of how Armor and MR have a decaying growth as you buy more.

The EllimiistJan 2, 20151 votes

This actually makes sense

karruckJan 2, 20151 votes

price increase and a buff for the armor pieces with an adjustment in their prices as well maybe some hp or even evade chance to mitigate some of the pen

karruckJan 2, 20151 votes

would item 3072 , item 3075 , item 3068 be an option?just wondering I know its 3 slots taken up but would that help mitigate some dmg and give some LS in return?

Sozan5Jan 2, 20151 votes

LW and VS - they should just work against Bonus Armor and Magic Resist, to make them less effective against squishies (while being roughly just as effective against tanks).

Remove BotrK. Im not sure what the logic behind this item was, didn't exist when I played in season 1.

Madred's Bloodrazor

And I do think that League needs an item to counter health stackers...

Possibly something that hits for bonus health, instead of maximum health or current health - of course with considerable buffs to the values.

I am thinking something like this:

Blade of the Ruined King

25 Attack Damage
10% Life Steal
40% Attack Speed

UNIQUE Passive - Your attacks deal 20 + 14% of the target's bonus health in physical damage. UNIQUE Active - Drains target champion, dealing 10% of the target's maximum health in physical damage (min. 100) and healing you for the damage dealt. Additionally you steal 25% of their movement speed for 3 seconds - 90 second cooldown. (450 range)

This would really make Botrk rather undesirable against squishy targets (the passive hitting for 20 damage), being a good pick against off-tanks (which usually get around 950-1300 bonus health) and a great one against full-tanks (which can get even over 2k of bonus health). To give you some idea of how effective it would be, here you go - examples of how it would work against 3 champions:

Vayne Vayne Health: 1909 Current Botrk deals from 0-152 health with 76 health per hit being the average My proposed Botrk would deal 20 damage per hit (26% of the current botrk average)

Makes it extremely less effective against squishies (that was the primary point).

Darius Darius Health: 2163 + 950 bonus health from items (Randuin and Sunfire) Current Botrk deals from 0-249 health with 124 health per hit being the average My proposed Botrk would deal 153 health per hit (107% of current botrk average)

Generally would make it more effective against off-tanks, but not by a large margin.

Zac Zac Health: 2229 + 2150 bonus health from items (Randuin, Sunfire, Warmog and Spirit Visage) Current Botrk deals from 0-350 health with 175 health per hit being the average My proposed Botrk would deal 301 health per hit (172% of current botrk average)

This would be significantly more effective against health stacking tanks, which also was the point.

The EllimiistJan 2, 20151 votes

Tbh I think this is the opposite of what most people are looking for. Which is for there to not be some item that magically allows adc/fighters to duel a tank.

Would still be better than the current botrk but would still make tanks pretty pointless.

Sozan5Jan 3, 20151 votes

I have to disagree.

There needs to be an item that allows everyone to fight tanks (or tanks will be broken) - however it must also be a niche item that serves very little purpose outside of fighting tanks.

And yes, this botrk will be better at fighting tanks (a bit), however it's an absolute garbage for fighting assassins, mages, other adcs and some of the fighters. This way this item will be picked only if you wish to counter tanks, and you will pay for it with reduced effectivness on more squishy targets.

Now I will show you some numbers (I like numbers) to present what I mean. We will be looking at 4 different scenarios - Ashe vs tank with current LW and Botrk, Ashe vs Squishy with current LW and Botrk, Ashe vs Tank with my proposed LW and Botrk, Ashe vs Squishy with my proposed LW and Botrk.

Ashe Ashe with IE, PD, Botrk, LW and Berserker Greaves (let's assume 6th item is a defensive one and doesn't matter at all), stanard 21 offense masteries and runes

AD: 276,4 AS: 1,90 Crit Chance: 55% Armor Penetration: 39% (LW + Devastating Strikes)

Vayne Vayne - as squishy target Health: 1909 Armor: 77 + 11 bonus = 88

Zac Zac - as tank target Health: 2229 + 2150 bonus = 4379 Armor: 83 + 201 bonus = 284

**With current LW and Botrk: ** Against Vayne -

Average damage (look below) per second: 716,2 damage Volley (W): 232 damage Time to kill with AA: 2,67 s

Against Zac -

Average damage per second: 471,3 damage Volley (W): 130 damage Time to kill with AA: 9,3 s

With my proposed LW and Botrk: Against Vayne -

Average damage per second: 541 damage Volley (W): 194 damage Time to kill with AA: 3,53 s

Against Zac -

Average damage per second: 485,2 damage Volley (W): 116 damage Time to kill with AA: 9,03 s

Average damage includes critical chance and damage multiplier from IE as well as Botrk damage applied with half of maximum effectivness (which is in fact the average damage the botrk deals).

So, if you look at those numbers you will see that tanks remain largely unaffected by the change (the botrk hits more but the LW penetrates less). However - it now takes 33% more time to kill a squishy for the Ashe, which is a huge difference. This is a straight up buff for tanks.

All of this is to add choice in the itemization. Right now Botrk and LW are the best choices, no matter if you are up against Tank or a squishy. I want them to remain as a best choice against a tank, but I also want them to be a subpar choice against squishies. Thanks to this an ADC will have to think "Is their tank a threat to build against him or should I just build straight damage to kill their APC/ADC/etc faster?".

Anyway, I hope you got what I meant to say (English is not my first language, so I sometimes struggle to explain something).

Disclaimer - the builds posted for Zac and Ashe (mostly due to the fact that neither have any defensive or offensive steroids) are purely for math purposes, not for viability.