Unpopular Popular Opinion: One of riot's being mistakes was reworking Guardian's Angel

Tormentula··106 votes·19,810 views

Reworking item 3026 to be an AD item was one of the worst things to happen to the game recently because;

  1. Games became shorter, because rather then it being a defensive item to help hold the line or extend teamfights with focus redirection, it became a risk bandaid for AD champs that were already ahead and get two opportunities to spell rotate somebody again or escape.

  2. it becomes inefficient on any mage, tank, support not named pyke, + anything that is AP, which ruins build diversity and playstyles, especially for AP fighters/divers which get outclassed by AD's superior options at the job even if the situation otherwise would prefer an AP damage dealer.

  3. it makes teamfights end faster because the guy with GA can often punch first and win while the person they killed likely can't itemize it properly. Having a tank, or support build GA can extend teamfights to kill them twice, causing multiple spell rotations and opportunities to reset and turn a fight around, removing that just makes the AD snowballing Diver/Assassin snowball harder with the gold.


Picture yourself playing Khazix in the current meta, you're ahead so you build item 1038 into item 3026, for only 2800 gold, you gain additional damage to help you snowball, and a second life to ensure that, if you die after killing somebody and don't escape, you will when you revive. It becomes a risk bandaid that also empowers your ability to force snowball because you're getting damage for your money.

To show some math, by building guardian's angel alone, the damage you gain on Kha'zix is:

Passive(+20% + auto 100%): 9 + 45 (the ratio bonus + the flat AD for auto) Q (+130%): 59 W(+100%): 45 E(+20%): 9

With GA, you gain 126 bonus physical damage in a spell rotation, not factoring in his auto resets with ultimate and Q CD.

Now on the other hand, imagine good ol' days of Khazix, but back when item 3026 built out of item 1031item 1057, if you're ahead, you make a decision to tradeoff an item slot offering more damage, for more safety from being shut down or throwing. There is a compensation in getting this second life, it doesn't make you stronger by building it, it gives you more room to be smart about using it (otherwise you waste it and throw). This makes kha'zix in general weaker for getting that second chance and safety, so he won't just build GA and then get stronger while harder to stop, he'll actually have to think about what plays he'll make for the trade off of a lethality or armor pen item.


Another example as a prediction what GA would look like in modern times,

Imagine Evelynn, first thing you're probably thinking is "why the fuck do you want to give Eve the option of a second life?", well heres why. A snowballing Evelynn might build a safer item late game like item 1031item 1057 and play smart for picking the right person and engaging with. On the other hand, current Eve has one option that we all hate playing against, building item 3089 / item 3135 / item 3165 and only E Q R electrocute one shotting them. If Evelynn could build Guardian Angel for making otherwise risky plays, she has to also lose out on an item slot, which hurts her ridiculously high scalings, or pressures her to get penetration rather then flat AP inorder to fit GA and counter the MR building targets.

That being said, if Evelynn had the option to go GA, it wouldn't break her, it would just be that, a smart option and if she doesn't go GA anyway because of how strong full AP is, well what's new.


Didn't we rework Guardian's Angel because games were lasting too long, especially in LCS?

Games are currently very short because an AD champ can literally build GA and go willy nilly forcing kills to snowball due to his risk bandaid and additional free damage to add on. The community lately complains about early snowball, so if this is an anti-snowball solution or a defensive option for champs that might want to survive being snowballed (such as going GA as a mage thats being focused, either in addition to or alternative to Zhonyas, or as a tank to survive longer for peeling), then this doesn't seem so unhealthy to me.

LCS we've said has been boring for awhile. Think about this: when mistakes are punished so hard that they auto decide a win or loss, proplayers are going to play super passive, but if you have everybody, including your support, tank top, mid laner, diver, whoever, you'll have more interesting teamfights, as well as long teamfights as everybody shifts focus around and gets 2 spell rotations off rather then "punch first and stay down". You'll see more "LOOK AT THE MOVES!" and less "LOOK AT THE move."

Wouldn't it result in something similar with assassins ATM and just be too good on tanks instead?

Not particularly because everybody would still have the option to build it. Its not like say, Elise vs. JarvanIV where simply put, Elise is fucked because she can't dive with anything other then a Zhonya's, which can be considered a self stun, but j4 can dive in, hit a bunch of people, and have his GA. If both have GA, then that gives her just as much counter diving threat on his marksmen as j4 has on hers, which feels skillful and less "punch first".

With old GA it wouldn't be that situation with Elise vs. Sejuani, or XinZhao vs. Zac, everybody has that even playing field option if they go for it.


Old GA needs to comeback for the sake of this game's diversity..and I'm pretty sure it would double up in helping the meta we're hating so far. Or alternatively, remove GA entirely because its just meta warping how many tools AD gets with GA being the biggest in terms of AP v AD divers. Removing it would solve a lot too.

107 Comments

AtheosisX45 votes

The whole concept of Guardian Angel was a mistake. Making it an AD item just compounded that mistake.

DeusVult9 votes

old GA IMO was fine. You could buy it if you wanted to survive some sort of unavoidable all in. It would allow you to survive for 2.5 seconds when the enemy team knew you were coming back, so they couldnt just move past you.

And it made sense, because it was a REALLY inefficient buy. It had a niche, but beyond that it was trash. Just a bit of resists and the long CD passive. No one could viably rush it, not even until MAYBE a 3rd item.

Now it is, as OP said, a risk aversion item. You can pick it up early on aggressive AD champs and because it gives damage and survivability, they can take bigger risks without having to worry

RainXBlade1 votes

Old GA was gold inefficient, but the item certainly did its job pretty well at giving you those second chances of outplaying. Another plus side was that anyone could benefit from the item since it gave resistances which are always useful.

New GA is basically a cheap safety net designed specifically for assassins and bruisers and not for everyone else.

I liked the old GA better. It had its niche and it fulfilled it, despite being gold inefficient.

Ok sure but why1 votes

It should have been a more team-oriented item, which requires a teammate to revive them after they're down via that weird hand-out pose they all have --- to be their guardian angel.

Kinda like Fortnite, but with less teabagging.

Wolf and Gun19 votes

Guardian's Angel is pretty crap now. I agree with the post.

Now it only helps the snowball-y champ survive longer. I had a game where the whole enemy team built this. Because we couldn't kill them the first time or keep them dead.

Everyone is running around as a mini-Zilean.

They stole his ult and gave it to everyone.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Automated Riven1 votes

As tho that didn't happen before.

That being said it was better as a defensive items then a psudo offensive one.

The Space Cowboy15 votes

Lissandra R, Zhona, GA was always funny. Zilean too.

remakoro15 votes

Unpopular opinion - Topics with "unpopular opinion" in the title never state really Unpopular opinions.

Tokogawaruf1 votes

Unpopular Opinion: Almost all Hate on Yasou is just Circlejerked, and never hits Reality.

Like, that would be an unpopular opinion whilst being true, i can already feel the Downvotes

Sp33d Zer01 votes

Nah. I legitimately dislike yasuo. I really couldn't care less what others think of him

Ok sure but why1 votes

Unless they do, which then never make it to the Hot page. They should really make a new page for ones that get many views/ratings, but not all positive ones. Call it "Controversial," or something. For those posts that get 30 upvotes and 29 downvotes. That'd be nice.

ModCaptainMårvelous9 votes

Eh, disagree.

The problem with old GA was it had a combination of stats and an effect that made it good on everyone. It wasn't more diverse because more people could build it: It was arguably less diverse because it was the go-to last item for everyone. In addition, it greatly favored classes like tanks (which is probably why boards loved it) because tanks get the most out of a second live: Restoring with 30% of a 5k HP pool is much more valuable than restoring 30% of a 2k hp pool.

it makes teamfights end faster because the guy with GA can often punch first and win while the person they killed likely can't itemize it properly. Having a tank, or support build GA can extend teamfights to kill them twice, causing multiple spell rotations and opportunities to reset and turn a fight around, removing that just makes the AD snowballing Diver/Assassin snowball harder with the gold.

This is also pretty wrong. There are aspects of mage itemization that are superior to GA.

While you might argue against it, in a perfect world the best case scenario is that AD itemization is about "cheating" death (GA, Maw, etc) while AP itemization favors getting more innately tanky while doing similar damage, either in an AoE or bursting a single target. At the end of the day, while I get what you're going for, your item would probably hurt the game more than it would help and end up placing further strain on snowballing.

Zerenza16 votes

But i also dont like having to kill every ADC or AD Assassin twice. It just feels like there's no repercussion for them if they miss position or go in to hard, like sure you can just wait for them to come back alive but in a team fight it's harder to keep track of, especially if it's the enemy ADC who's GA got popped, cause they probably have peel to keep you away from them so they can respawn.

I feel like AD champions have a lot more tools that supplement weaknesses rather than buff up strengths. Mage's don't have an item that gives them infinite mana for example with 2k cost, cause if a Mage is supposed to be gated by mana, their gated by mana and can't build to eliminate that weakness(Anymore). AP assassins can't build items like Black Clever, Steraks, Deaths Dance, Phantom Dancer ect to make them selves tankier, they have items that make them "Tankier" but all they give is HP or Resistances, they don't give Revive Passives, Extra Sheilds, Spell Sheilds, Extra resistances ect. Like the passive of Banshee's and Zhonya's are great, don't get me wrong, but their nothing compared to taking 12% reduced damage, getting a straight up revive passive, or taking 15% of all damage dealt to you as DOT and AP's also don't get flat sheild passives such as Maw or Steraks.

Like the problem i saw with adding damage to GA was the crucial fact that catered even more to eliminating the weakness of champions, for a class of champions that already had almost every item in their class do that for them, whereas other classes don't get crutches like that.

TEA Nietzsche 3 votes

{quoted}

But i also dont like having to kill every ADC or AD Assassin twice. It just feels like there's no repercussion for them if they miss position or go in to hard, like sure you can just wait for them to come back alive but in a team fight it's harder to keep track of, especially if it's the enemy ADC who's GA got popped, cause they probably have peel to keep you away from them so they can respawn.

Zhonyas makes it so that you can't even get them down to 30% like you can against GA.

I feel like AD champions have a lot more tools that supplement weaknesses rather than buff up strengths. Mage's don't have an item that gives them infinite mana for example with 2k cost, cause if a Mage is supposed to be gated by mana, their gated by mana and can't build to eliminate that weakness(Anymore). AP assassins can't build items like Black Clever, Steraks, Deaths Dance, Phantom Dancer ect to make them selves tankier, they have items that make them "Tankier" but all they give is HP or Resistances, they don't give Revive Passives, Extra Sheilds, Spell Sheilds, Extra resistances ect. Like the passive of Banshee's and Zhonya's are great, don't get me wrong, but their nothing compared to taking 12% reduced damage, getting a straight up revive passive, or taking 15% of all damage dealt to you as DOT and AP's also don't get flat sheild passives such as Maw or Steraks.

I love it when people pretend that all ""AD"" champions can build the same items - ADCs and AD casters have severely different itemization. ADC's can't use Steraks, neither can most AD assassins. On the other hand bruisers have no business with PD and DD (and so on).

I also find it hilarious how you count a shield that is essential just conditional temporary HP against one type of damage. Looking at it objectively HP >>> temporary conditional HP.

hey don't give [...] Spell Sheilds

Wrong, Banshees is much better than the AD equivalent.

Like the problem i saw with adding damage to GA was the crucial fact that catered even more to eliminating the weakness of champions, for a class of champions that already had almost every item in their class do that for them, whereas other classes don't get crutches like that.

The best argument for why Zhonyas is better than GA is that back when it didn't give AD it was mostly used by tanks and AD champions, mages have practically never built it. Why? Because Zhonyas is strictly a better item.

Nyarlathοtep7 votes

Zhonyas makes it so that you can't even get them down to 30% like you can against GA.

Zhonyas also requires timing to be used effectively. Being stunned, displaced, silenced or suppressed makes it impossible to be activated. And dont you dare "HERP DERP LEARN TO USE IT" why should those that buy zhonyas have to time it perfectly, while GA requires no thinking whatsoever? The same applies to maw too.

On the other hand bruisers have no business with PD and DD

Bs. Some fighters can buy DD. Riven, aatrox are the first that come to my mind. It sucks major ass when you try to damage them, only to see that they have bought DD, and while they slowly take the rest of the damage as dot, you take the full amount of their damage instantly. Oh and while the dot ticks, they heal it instantly.

Looking at it objectively HP >>> temporary conditional HP

Thats true. But the passives are much better than the ap can get (on the defensive side that is).

Wrong, Banshees is much better than the AD equivalent.

BS. This item sucks major ass. The passive would be good if it had not such a big cd late game. And then there is also the fact that it is easy to poke it down. One luden's proc (which is easy to land) and there goes your spellshield. And now you have to play extremely safe just for it to come back. Not to say that EON is particularly any better, but at least when it matters you can have it. (dont you dare use this as argument on the zhonyas vs GA. These are different circumstances one how it works)

TEA Nietzsche 2 votes

{quoted}

Zhonyas also requires timing to be used effectively. Being stunned, displaced, silenced or suppressed makes it impossible to be activated. And dont you dare "HERP DERP LEARN TO USE IT" why should those that buy zhonyas have to time it perfectly, while GA requires no thinking whatsoever? The same applies to maw too.

Downside of that is that it's easy to waste GA in a situation where you'd never want to use it and again.

Bs. Some fighters can buy DD. Riven, aatrox are the first that come to my mind. It sucks major ass when you try to damage them, only to see that they have bought DD, and while they slowly take the rest of the damage as dot, you take the full amount of their damage instantly. Oh and while the dot ticks, they heal it instantly.

But they can't build PD, BT and a bunch of other ADC items - other fighters never build DD. It varies from champ to champ but in the end the point remains, there is a huge variety in AD champions who all have very different needs. The seemingly big variety really isn't that big when you look at what the champions actually can realistally build.

Thats true. But the passives are much better than the ap can get (on the defensive side that is).

Which is made up by the AP items having much better utility and/or offensive stats.

BS. This item sucks major ass. The passive would be good if it had not such a big cd late game. And then there is also the fact that it is easy to poke it down. One luden's proc (which is easy to land) and there goes your spellshield. And now you have to play extremely safe just for it to come back. Not to say that EON is particularly any better, but at least when it matters you can have it. (dont you dare use this as argument on the zhonyas vs GA. These are different circumstances one how it works)

EON has 0 defensive usage (just due to how you activate it) and it's offensive usage is practically negate it due to it being outclasses by the other lethality options. There is just no reason to ever buy it unless you play in really high elo on eg Talon and know that the game is over in the next 4 minutes but even then it's a matter of taste at best.

Tormentula8 votes

I agree with your post but;

[{quoted}](name=TEA Traumate,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IBUfBH3p,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-14T12:44:43.453+0000)

Which is made up by the AP items having much better utility and/or offensive stats.

item 3147 comes with ward clearing item 3142 gives you mobility to run around the jungle with better offensive stats, AP's alternative is item 2065, which has somewhat small stats to warrant building on most APs. item 3102 is just item 3814 except item 3814 it an active that you can control when you want to use it, rather then banshee's which can be popped before a teamfight even begins. I guess banshee's makes you harder to pick off via hooks or binds, but stat wise, its not as good as when it was a tank item. item 3146 is AP's item 3812 but DD has its bleed utility to let you live longer, and its focus on one stat (AD) where as gunblade is hybrid, making it harder to utilize on all but niche hybrid champs (akali and kat).

Nyarlathοtep1 votes

Downside of that is that it's easy to waste GA in a situation where you'd never want to use it and again.

Zhonyas can be easy to waste it too you know.

there is a huge variety in AD champions who all have very different needs.

Mages have different needs too you know. Under no circumstances should a high range like xerath share the same items as someone like swain. Xerath should be able to opt to pure damage items. But he cant because the only big damage items are rabadons and spellbinder. Spellbinder is a very VERY bad item and rabadons is a must sometimes. Oh the other hand, swain would prefer items that give a bit of damage and resistances considering his small range. Although most ap items are already like this (except they have hp instead of resistances).

Which is made up by the AP items having much better utility and/or offensive stats.

BS! Here are the ap items that give utility, GLP (sucks ass, low damage, projectile can be blocked,decaying slow), protobelt (low ap, useless dash most buy it for the extra damage on the active), rylais (20% 1 sec slow lul), twin shadows,reverie (low ap its made to be bought by supps mostly).

So no. All the utility that items give are very very bad.

EON has 0 defensive usage (just due to how you activate it) and it's offensive usage is practically negate it due to it being outclasses by the other lethality options.

Not really. It does give a bit of hp. EON is the lethality option that increases your survivability, whereas duskblade is for the extra damage and ward clearing, and yomous is for engaging better. It is getting outclassed because killing the enemy is almost always a better choice that surviving a bit more.

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

{quoted}

Zhonyas can be easy to waste it too you know.

Sure, due to a missplay. GA can just go to waste without you being able to do anything about it.

Mages have different needs too you know. Under no circumstances should a high range like xerath share the same items as someone like swain. Xerath should be able to opt to pure damage items. But he cant because the only big damage items are rabadons and spellbinder. Spellbinder is a very VERY bad item and rabadons is a must sometimes. Oh the other hand, swain would prefer items that give a bit of damage and resistances considering his small range. Although most ap items are already like this (except they have hp instead of resistances).

Sure, they do have somewhat differing needs - however mana aside AP champions can use most AP items pretty alright - now compare that to bruisers/assassins going for crit itemization. That's why DFG has not only been used on AP assassins but actually also all types of mages who liked having a little more burst.

BS! Here are the ap items that give utility, GLP (sucks ass, low damage, projectile can be blocked,decaying slow), protobelt (low ap, useless dash most buy it for the extra damage on the active), rylais (20% 1 sec slow lul), twin shadows,reverie (low ap its made to be bought by supps mostly).

I love how you continue to exaggerate the utility of AD items while attempting to trash very useful AP items - Protobelt gives lots of waveclear, is the only dash item and is indeed useful in teamfights. Rylais is absolutely notorious, that slow is super useful for hitting skillshots, Shurelyas is super efficient which is why Singed builds it, Spellbinder is absolutely core on Vlad who is currently extremely good, Morellos gives grievous wounds and other useful stats while AD would have to sacrifice penetration to get it etc etc.

I'm not arguing that AP itemization is super good and AD itemization is terrible - my point is that there are advantages and disadvantages to both, claiming otherwise is simply dishonest.

Nyarlathοtep

Sure, due to a missplay. GA can just go to waste without you being able to do anything about it.

Missplaying a zhonyas is far more common and easy compared to GA for obvious reasons, cd to name one.

Sure, they do have somewhat differing needs - however mana aside AP champions can use most AP items pretty alright

True. But they cant maximize their dps if they want since a lot of their items have less ap for hp.

That's why DFG has not only been used on AP assassins but actually also all types of mages who liked having a little more burst.

They could had lowered the range and change a bit the numbers in order to make it a true ap assassin item, and less desirable for a mage.

I love how you continue to exaggerate the utility of AD items

?? I never said that ad items have better utility than ap ones. I just said that ad ones have stronger effects.

One converts 30% of the damage to true dot, while also providing ad vamp. One reduces all damage to your last damaged champ (hitting another target it changes), while also increasing your movement speed if there is an enemy champ close. One converts excess lifesteal to a shield, while also providing alot of lifesteal. One gives a magic shield that also grants a bunch of stats if it gets activated. One has an active that is literally a cleanse.

And those are usually bought on divers, skirmishers or adcs. I wont go to the juggernaut's items.

Protobelt gives lots of waveclear is the only dash item and is indeed useful in teamfights

Who cares about that. Most champs that pick this item have already strong waveclear (vlad, ekko, fizz, annie). When they buy the item the pick it for the extra damage. Hell most midlaners have strong waveclear so this item is kinda stupid when it comes down on "utility" since it becomes an overkill. Also BS. The dash is nigh impossible to notice and "against champions and monsters, each instance of damage beyond the first deals 90% reduced damage" so not a lot of damage at teamfights. Also unless you are one of the aftermentioned champs, chances are that you dont want to be that close to the enemy.

Rylais is absolutely notorious, that slow is super useful for hitting skillshots

In league of dashes, slows that are 20% for 1 second are really REALLY bad.

Shurelyas is super efficient which is why Singed builds it,

Singed likes every item that gives movement speed. Most mages wont buy it. Or rather, dont want to.

Spellbinder is absolutely core on Vlad who is currently extremely good

Because vlad likes the extra movement speed. Plus he can stack it fast, unlike a good chunk of ap roaster.

Morellos gives grievous wounds

I didnt mention it because it truly is good.

AD would have to sacrifice penetration to get it

???? Mortal reminder hello?

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

{quoted}

Missplaying a zhonyas is far more common and easy compared to GA for obvious reasons, cd to name one.

But it's potential reward is much bigger and wasting Zhonyas can always be avoided - wasting GA can not.

True. But they cant maximize their dps if they want since a lot of their items have less ap for hp.

On the other hand AD equivalents to those items are either weak (Mallet) or even more HP heavy with even less offensive stats (Steraks).

They could had lowered the range and change a bit the numbers in order to make it a true ap assassin item, and less desirable for a mage.

?? I never said that ad items have better utility than ap ones. I just said that ad ones have stronger effects.

You only mention the upsides of AD items while only mentioning the downsides of AP item.

Hell most midlaners have strong waveclear so this item is kinda stupid when it comes down on "utility" since it becomes an overkill.

That's just complete nonsense - being able to shove the wave even slightly more quickly is EXTREMELY important in the current midlane meta and has always been. That gives lane priority, allows you to ward, help your jungler out and roam more quickly. 'Too much waveclear' is not a thing.

Also BS. The dash is nigh impossible to notice and "against champions and monsters, each instance of damage beyond the first deals 90% reduced damage" so not a lot of damage at teamfights. Also unless you are one of the aftermentioned champs, chances are that you dont want to be that close to the enemy.

It's a pretty damn good chunk and if you have trouble noticing it then you probably have FPS drops.

In league of dashes, slows that are 20% for 1 second are really REALLY bad.

No.

Singed likes every item that gives movement speed. Most mages wont buy it. Or rather, dont want to. Because vlad likes the extra movement speed. Plus he can stack it fast, unlike a good chunk of ap roaster.

True for tons of AD champions for tons of AD items.

???? Mortal reminder hello?

Exactly - can't get LDR and thus have to sacrifice penetration - as I said.

Nyarlathοtep

But it's potential reward is much bigger and wasting Zhonyas can always be avoided - wasting GA can not.

Indeed, zhonyas can be avoided. However a second life is overall a stronger effect. It literally, erases mistakes. And unlike zhonyas, it also heals you.

On the other hand AD equivalents to those items are either weak (Mallet) or even more HP heavy with even less offensive stats (Steraks).

I wouldnt really call mallet equivalent of ap items. Mages gain defensive stats through generalized hp. While ad ones (most predominant, skirmishers, some divers and adcs) have strong damage reduction. Pd and dd are the only ones that give damage reduction without sacrificing dps. However dmg reduction is far better at increasing your survivability compared to hp. Although, this could happen because champs that usually buy pd or dd have shields and/or lifesteal.

You only mention the upsides of AD items while only mentioning the downsides of AP item.

Ap items have upsides? Everything that aps can get have big limitations. Buying more than one hextech item is generally not advised since the share the cd (yes ik, why would anyone buy 2 hextech items, its just an example for the sake of my point). Ap items have next to no sustain (both hp and mana). Roa and seraphs takes time to scale to an rewarding item. Despite how important of an item lost chapter is, its extremely expensive. Aps cant get an item with mini gw like bramble vest and executioners calling, as such laning against vlad and the such early on is a nightmare. Aps, apart one or two, have troubles killing tanks even with liandrys.

hat gives lane priority, allows you to ward, help your jungler out and roam more quickly

Roaming as mage is death sentence.

It's a pretty damn good chunk and if you have trouble noticing it then you probably have FPS drops.

Not really.

True for tons of AD champions for tons of AD items.

Em could you explain this one? Im not sure what are you trying to say.

Exactly - can't get LDR and thus have to sacrifice penetration - as I said.

My bad, i didnt understand what you wanted to say. Usually the ones that cant buy mortal reminder can just go for bramble vest. Although its ineffective against casters.

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

Ap items have upsides?

Alright, I'm out of here, your bias is too strong. If you can't even admit that there is something good about AP then it's clear that this discussion is pointless as there is no arguing with extremists.

No hard feelings and have a nice day.

Arcane Blue Boi1 votes

Utility wise, rylais is bad right now, doesnt really do anything; ads have a 800 gold to deal with the healt regen most comps pack today (DrMundo Vladimir etc), while aps must purchase a whole 3000 gold morello, the only thing i can see you talking about is support items, that are designed for enchanters, that are almost all ap, like item 3504 or item 2065 , but do supp items really count?

As for offensive stats, if ap is better, then why are (to name a few) Talon MonkeyKing dominating instead of Leblanc Katarina Akali ?

TEA Nietzsche 1 votes

{quoted}

Utility wise, rylais is bad right now, doesnt really do anything; ads have a 800 gold to deal with the healt regen most comps pack today (DrMundo Vladimir etc), while aps must purchase a whole 3000 gold morello, the only thing i can see you talking about is support items, that are designed for enchanters, that are almost all ap, like item 3504 or item 2065 , but do supp items really count?

But those 800g lead to nothing really while Morello just provides basically everything you could wish for. Regarding your question: does it give AP? Is it built by AP building champions? If yes then sure, why wouldn't it count?

As for offensive stats, if ap is better, then why are (to name a few) Talon MonkeyKing dominating instead of Leblanc Katarina Akali ?

The latter are really strong too, just to a slightly lesser degree. Talon aside AP champions are doing really well midlane, Zoe, TF, LB, Vlad etc are doing extremely well.

Isn't it interested that the initial attempt to send AD fighters bot has essentially failed and that the strongest botlane picks are pretty much all AP? Morgana, Swain, Heimer, Karma and Vlad dominate botlane - while still being very well represented in midlane.

Malak7 votes

yea wtf....guardian angel should be used by all

TonyTonyMordecai7 votes

Honestly, adding damage on a revival item isn't good because there's no trade off of getting it over any other item. "this item for more damage, or this item for extra life and some damage", it's a no brainer unless you need a different item sooner

JPLangley4 votes

[deleted]

heroikc5 votes

{quoted}

So tanks should be allowed to have GA?

I'm thinking the point of the post is to just remove it. It's pointless to build on tanks but toxic to build on ADCs and assassins.

Galaxy Destoryer1 votes

Not every item is for every champ mate holy I agree with tank being weak atm but all these tank bias omg bruiser are too strong conquer is overpower ever thought about stop crying

heroikc1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Galaxy Destoryer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IBUfBH3p,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-07-15T00:27:32.978+0000)

Not every item is for every champ mate holy I agree with tank being weak atm but all these tank bias omg bruiser are too strong conquer is overpower ever thought about stop crying

Try ending this burst meta....and gold funneling, and power creep, etc. etc. Other than that, it hurts to even think about this game.

Galaxy Destoryer1 votes

Trying to end the burst meta that is a bit bias some people like these type of burst meta and some like tank meta

Naranjo13 votes

#revertitem 3026

Thilmer3 votes

I suspect is not an unpopular opinion.

Guardian Angel was a balanced defensive ítem; now is some bullshit that only AD champions can use effectively since buying it in tanks or mages is borderline trolling.

Recon12123 votes

I think its really disappointing how a lot of defensive items are prioritized to only work for AP or AD. Like why should zhonyas active only be an AP thing or why should revive be a strictly AD thing or why should a spell shield that doesn't need to be activated only be an AP item. I feel that more champs across the board should be able to utilize the same means of defense, with only a few more generalize defense items.

Also, not gonna lie I would like to see GA removed the item just pisses me off and the fact that it's only viable on AD makes it so much more frustrating

Galaxy Destoryer1 votes

Tank bias [slayer-jinx-wink]

Skorch3 votes

I honestly feel like you are giving GA too much/too little credit. (Bit longer than i wanted... so i added a tldr at the bottom paragraph.

Acting like "Man for a measly 2800 Kha zix gets 126 damage on his FULL ROTATION" Which compared to literally any other AD item is meager... which is the point. In fact i would say that the MR would be even MORE annoying on assassins, since mages get in a tizzy from just item 3156 existing.

The issue was it got reworked because it was meant for CARRIES. Wether that was the assassin getting in there being able to kill someone and dying but have a chance of escaping after GA. Or fighters that get in your face and die. Or squishy ADCs who have a chance of redemption after being one-shot from a rengar out of stealth.

In fact the AD instead of MR sure isnt appealing to Mages, nor should any buy it unless they REALLY want that passive (and idk last hitting with autos at like 35 min) But even then pure tank stats are only so appealing anyway on a mage that has long range, or an ap bruiser who MR was only so effective on. Like sure it was nice but it wasnt like "Im buying this for the MR" You buy it for the passive. And SO FEW mages (mainly AP bruisers) Bought it. And even then i feel like some still can since some AP bruisers weave autos anyway.

The main reason it got reworked was because it wasnt a CARRY item. ADCs only bought it to TRY to survive, since it is so god damn stat inefficient but actually living is nice. And even then id argue the MR is more useful for AD champions than even AD.

However since it gave both tank stats and a revive the only people RELIABLY picking it up was tanks. Back in the season 5 tank meta from hell. There would be 2-3 tanks on either team, and every single one of them would buy GA. And then the 4 damage dealers in the game would die. And even though half of both teams were still alive, you'd be damned if anything was happening in that game for the next 70 or so seconds. The tanks will take 20 or longer seconds to kill eachother. And you'd bet every tank was alive because of GA.

And then they added stoneplate which does near the same thing as GA... and every tank buys it... yay. (although it is a bit more fair on tanks than old GA was.)

TLDR: The MR was more useful on everyone in the game than the AD. The change for AD instead of MR didnt magically make the item more problamatic. The only reason the MR needed to go was because every single tank would build it at the time and NOTHING would get done after a teamfight because only tanks were alive. In fact you could argue the season 5 tank meta was solely caused by GA itself back then.

Tormentula1 votes

{quoted}

Acting like "Man for a measly 2800 Kha zix gets 126 damage on his FULL ROTATION" Which compared to literally any other AD item is meager... which is the point. In fact i would say that the MR would be even MORE annoying on assassins, since mages get in a tizzy from just item 3156 existing.

You have to look at it this way, when a champ snowballs, he buys damage to get stronger, else he'll fall off because a champion's natural Armor/Health per level begins to catch up, or alternatively, something starts building armor.

The point I'm making is when you rush GA, you're still keeping momentum for your lead, in addition to making ti harder to lose that momentum with its added safety.

Old GA giving MR over AD kinda blends in with the "safety" aspect of the item, where as the AD one adds two benefits, Armor and passive for safety, and damage so you're not throwing out your lead.

126 damage on kha'zix doesn't sound like much, but remember this is still bonus damage in addition to other items like duskblade, Its not a ton, and I don't mean to make it out to be, but to show that its still providing some damage so there's little loss when building it, since you still can get enough damage with warrior, DB, GA, GB, LW, rather then say with old GA, there's that dip in power for rushing it or you build it as a last item.

The issue was it got reworked because it was meant for CARRIES. Wether that was the assassin getting in there being able to kill someone and dying but have a chance of escaping after GA. Or fighters that get in your face and die. Or squishy ADCs who have a chance of redemption after being one-shot from a rengar out of stealth.

In fact the AD instead of MR sure isnt appealing to Mages, nor should any buy it unless they REALLY want that passive (and idk last hitting with autos at like 35 min) But even then pure tank stats are only so appealing anyway on a mage that has long range, or an ap bruiser who MR was only so effective on. Like sure it was nice but it wasnt like "Im buying this for the MR" You buy it for the passive. And SO FEW mages (mainly AP bruisers) Bought it. And even then i feel like some still can since some AP bruisers weave autos anyway.

This is true, except part of the reason why no AP bruiser builds it, is because you kinda gold sink into item 1038, its not like "build either chain vest or MR and then into GA", its "if you need armor well here ya go".

With old GA its synergized a lot better with certain itemization, but it was a late game item, rather then an early, if you did play an off-tank bruiser, it was a bonus with your other defensive stats, offering some resistances, and a revive on a off-tank unit.

The main reason it got reworked was because it wasnt a CARRY item. ADCs only bought it to TRY to survive, since it is so god damn stat inefficient but actually living is nice. And even then id argue the MR is more useful for AD champions than even AD.

Idk if the MR is more important, you have to remember that marksmen that built old GA were missing out on 45 AD. That's 45 additional AD per auto on a DPS champ.

Twitch can get up to 40 AD on his ult, we seen what twitch can do when he ults, now imagine slapping that same output on marksmen who builds GA. If marksmen in previous seasons built old GA every game, comparing that to if marksmen build the AD version every game, you're adding a revive + a late game twitch / vayne steroid in comparison to the MR. (and yea, I know the strength in their ults isn't just the AD bonus, its just to get a damage perspective)

However since it gave both tank stats and a revive the only people RELIABLY picking it up was tanks. Back in the season 5 tank meta from hell. There would be 2-3 tanks on either team, and every single one of them would buy GA. And then the 4 damage dealers in the game would die. And even though half of both teams were still alive, you'd be damned if anything was happening in that game for the next 70 or so seconds. The tanks will take 20 or longer seconds to kill eachother. And you'd bet every tank was alive because of GA.

This is true, but this is where the community has to ask themselves what exactly they want. We were upset about long games back then, riot delivered, and now we're upset about short games. I feel like with the damage creep, a meta like that from back then wouldn't actually be as long, and more in that 35 minute sweet spot, unless everybody likes the current meta.

That was a toxic time, so its fair to share that opinion.

And then they added stoneplate which does near the same thing as GA... and every tank buys it... yay. (although it is a bit more fair on tanks than old GA was.)

The thing about stoneplate was yea, it built out of the same stats, but it also has that passive which increases resistances around groups, which makes the stats themselves really good. Additionally it scales your health by 40% to 100% in groups, which is significantly more then GA revived you for in some cases (a 2k health target gets between 800 - 2000 health off this item), and because it scaled off max health, it was less of a generalist item and focused on tanks that build health, resulting in nothing but tanks abusing an item that was specifically designed to overshot buff them, all while ignoring how cho'gath's ultimate works with health and how it ignores the damage reduction part of it.

If anything, I'd say this thing was way too strong in comparison to GA, now if GA + Stoneplate was built, idk how toxic that combo would be.

Maybe they could bring back old GA but make something about GA a unique effect that can't work with stoneplate, maybe even turning the revive from auto pilot, to an active so stuff diving can press it, but they don't become impossible to kill if you catch and CC them.

GentlemanGhidora3 votes

In this same line of thought, I wish Banshee’s Veil was a tank item again instead of the AP niche virtually no one gets. I liked the extra protection so someone getting the drop on me didn’t ALWAYS mean I was dead to a combo I had a fraction of a second to react to.

PopcornBunni1 votes

{quoted}

In this same line of thought, I wish Banshee’s Veil was a tank item again instead of the AP niche virtually no one gets. I liked the extra protection so someone getting the drop on me didn’t ALWAYS mean I was dead to a combo I had a fraction of a second to react to.

Same same same. It being the biggest up front MR boost set it apart from the other tank items as a burst protection, which is in large part the major point of tanks -- to absorb the first wave of damage while their team follows up on the weakened opponents. Current item 3102 is burst protection on burst carries bursting each other to death.

BrightWîngs2 votes

yes but it was also annoying when at the time tanks were the meta they could buy it and killing an unstoppable tank twice is aids

The Yetii Rider2 votes

Lol. Reworking GA makes AP champions stronger. It reduces the amount of MR on many champions, particularly those who are ahead, because they're not getting MR from GA anymore.

Cosnirak2 votes

I think the current GA has some serious flaws to its design, but I also think the old version had serious flaws too. Seeing every single tank in the game buy GA was a real problem. Old GA was absolutely more effective on tanks than non tanks, and by too large an amount.

Galaxy Destoryer2 votes

Not bias upvote summoner 12

Sp33d Zer02 votes

step 1: say "unpopular opinion" Step 2: say opinion that is extremely popular where you are posting it. Step 3: reap upvotes

DNFVixen2 votes

The rework happened because ghostcancer and his team has bad ideas

The Dreamwalker1 votes

Yea, I think GA should be allowed on mages since some of the AD champions can also make use of item 3157 because of how they scale. Two champions that come to mind are MissFortune and Kaisa.

Also, just as a reminder Riot used to be against protective items giving too much damage. Anyone remember Zhonya's Ring? Riot separated that item into two separate items because they deem it too powerful because of the defense and offense that it gave to champions. Yet... Riot allows AD champions to have good defense and pretty decent damage from Guardian's Angel. (The two items are item 3089 and item 3157)

LILY In Despair1 votes

The amount of people who think this is somehow a smart observation is too high. Do you idiots think that buffing mages by giving them a second zonyas is balanced ? Do you actually think that the mages who already have better scaling and better items than AD champs, more damage and less itemization for anti mage builds in the tank department, deserve GA to be theirs? Have you completely lost your minds? Are you that stupid?

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