But only on support champions. If you are an AP carry they are perfectly acceptable. (ryze and tf) Seriously though, why is it okay for carries to have targeted CC but not for supports? I mean, sure, it's toxic. But if it's toxic on the likes of taric and sion, it is DEFINITELY toxic on ryze and tf.
Gelmous33 votesRyze doesn't stun though
Hrd2H1t7 votesIts not "stun" vs "root" that matters, its the fact that he doesnt even need to hit a skillshot to stop your movement.
SlaktarTasken27 votesTargeted stuns and long duration stuns are only overbearing because damage is so fucking high, even as a tank you have to fear getting hit by cc and weave in and out like a fucking assassin because you will just melt unless you are fed.
h5LYF41Lam12 votes
DunkinNoobs6 votesIrelia's stun is the most egregious because not only is it targeted, it also has no travel time, has a long duration, and has a short CD, all at the same time.
yoshi27903 votesBut it's not garanteed though.
DrCyanide3 votesIt feels like the only time it's not guaranteed is when Irelia's fed enough to not need a stun to kill you.
What I'd personally like to see is the ability live up to it's name, scaling with the health difference to try to bring things to an equilibrium rather than a "oh, you've got 1 HP more than me, you're stunned and dead now".
dunder kill14 votesIts also melee and situational. Cant just point out the strengths and give none of the big weaknesses.
You're trying to say it being melee and thus "having no travel time" is a strength lol
Paquay2 votesMelee autoattacks OP... Can't see a travel time to shield. Too Op. Nerf melee to negative 100 range.
Sire Hippington21 votes
....
Tarics stun even had alot counterplay for an targeted stun, it had such a slow missle speed that you couldreposition your self quite well befor impact, so you couldn't avoid the stun, but you could atleast choose where you get stunned.
Khadaver11 votesWell it's not like Annie has an aoe stun that is impossible to miss, oh wait
yoshi27903 votesHonestly her range is so low, and she is so immobile that if you take that away her winrate drops to ~30%
She needs a small rework.
chipndip12 votesRiot said they won't, though, because Annie is "meant to deal with mobile shit". Her range is so shot that she doesn't get to do much unless people waddle right up to her, though.
Either make her a battle mage or rework her so she can fight better in the neutral game.
Very Hard Engage11 votestargeted stuns will never be re added for fear of showing just how bad/high damage is right now. all it takes is a 1 second window and you're dead or in an unwinnable position. its that gross. normally back in the day when a sion did it to you, combod you with his full kit you would lose 1/4th of your health. thats it, now if you get stunned in lane you're down to a quarter.
The Lost Marbles2 votestargeted stuns will never be re added for fear of showing just how bad/high damage is right now. all it takes is a 1 second window and you're dead or in an unwinnable position. its that gross. normally back in the day when a sion did it to you, combod you with his full kit you would lose 1/4th of your health. thats it, now if you get stunned in lane you're down to a quarter.
Sion's "full combo" back then was literally just QW.
Granted, just QW from Sion back then had nearly as much AP scaling as Orianna's entire rotation, but still.
Fatefallen4 votesWhich explains why ryze and twisted fate are such popular picks right now. Targeted stuns are op no matter who has them. If you are going to take them off sion and taric, you need to remove them from everyone. Also, it helps when skill shots take skill to land. why does it matter if ryze's Q is a skill shot when he can simply bind you in place in order to land it? Or for that matter, yasuo's tornado when he can just dash 6 times and shoot it point blank with 0% chance of missing it? Skill shots should take skill, targeted stuns should not be alllowed if you are taking them away from certain people, you should take them away from everyone.
Asayake 5150glow2 votesWhich explains why ryze and twisted fate are such popular picks right now. Targeted stuns are op no matter who has them. If you are going to take them off sion and taric, you need to remove them from everyone. Also, it helps when skill shots take skill to land. why does it matter if ryze's Q is a skill shot when he can simply bind you in place in order to land it? Or for that matter, yasuo's tornado when he can just dash 6 times and shoot it point blank with 0% chance of missing it? Skill shots should take skill, targeted stuns should not be alllowed if you are taking them away from certain people, you should take them away from everyone.
To be fair people do hate Ryze's targeted snare.
Pierce The Veal4 votesTo be fair people do hate Ryze's targeted snare.
Might as well be a stun if you're melee.
Asayake 5150glow7 votesMight as well be a stun if you're melee.
Only if all your abilities are dashes (
)
dunder kill1 votesRyze is not popular and has the worst winrate in the game.
Nobody plays TF specifically for his gold card. They play him for map pressure and roaming
chipndip12 votes...and gold card
AlienPrimate5 votesHow do you figure 1/4 of someone's hp with Sion's combo back in the day? I one shot people constantly with his combo in season 4.
A Bad Nasus4 votesold sion was so much fun lol
Pierce The Veal3 votes[{quoted}](name=Fringed Puccoon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I8E6nkYI,comment-id=000000020000,timestamp=2017-03-26T07:41:20.696+0000)
old sion was so much fun lol
This.
Very Hard Engage2 votesyeah after a few items. not at level 2.
Gregor Gysi1 votesLevel 2 cheese is barely a thing nowadays, but back when we had the old Red Pot.. That was just insane.
Very Hard Engage2 votes.... bot lane?
GULAG 4 U7 votesTf has clear counterplay for his stun at least. Can't say the same for ryze.
FireDrizzle7 votesTf has clear counterplay for his stun at least. Can't say the same for ryze.
TF's card has a travel time, so certain champs can avoid it or anyone can cast something before being stunned yeah.
"Which explains why ryze and twisted fate are such popular picks right now. Targeted stuns are op no matter who has them." I dont think Ryze is strong for having a point and click snare, He's a lane bully and a hypercarry. I also remember in a LCS game a Kha zix jumps on a Ryze out a bush and the Ryze snares him, trades evenly and gets away. It would be funny if it didnt remind me of playing vs Ryze.
"why is it okay for carries to have targeted CC but not for supports?" I would prefer the enemy Taric point and click stunning me then a mage doing it and bursting me.
Khadaver9 votesThe counterplay to TF is that you see him drawing a stun instead of just casting it.
FireDrizzle3 votesThe counterplay to TF is that you see him drawing a stun instead of just casting it.
Well, you know roughly Ryze's snare range and you can assume he will cast if he is in range, has it available and you are not shielded from q by mins.
Anhartamin7 votes[deleted]
Melledoneus8 votesWhatever in that lake is murdering people, I'm pretty sure it's not just TF.
AirKingNeo4 votesRyze doesn't have a stun.
Twisted Fate has so many trade offs for having his stun. Plus it's not long either.
zlumpy4 votesTargeted cc on a support serves an actual purpose. By removing pretty much all of it from game you just end up making high mobility champs to hard to fight back against once the other person has learned them well enough. Removing skill types just ends up limiting character kits making some champs not worth picking and other champs must pick choices.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesExcept no-mobility characters still get the short end of the stick. Mobile Champs can at least get away before they get into range, or at least lengthen the distance before the stun hits. Those with nothing have to deal with not being able to dodge something that would kill them in a bad situation
zlumpy2 votesI agree. That is a direct result of riots focus on mobility over the years imo. They focused too much on "leet plays" and flashy stuff that simplicity can't be viable. They literally said that they can't change flash because the game is balanced around it now.
Personally I feel that if they had kept more targeted stuff and other things like auras they could have more easily balanced more aspects and champs in their game. But those things are counter to exciting plays and the stuff their viewer market likes (not all obviously as everyone has their own preferances) so it became the thing to get rid of despite the fact that it kept certain things in check and created a larger diversity pick and more itemization to counter enemies.
There very easily could have been more skills like fioras riposte or nocturbes spell shield on these immobile champs. Heck nasus magic zone could have been made to reduce damage of missle type attacks if they travel through it or something. The options were always there riot just chose not to explore them.
Fondling Gems3 votesI don't think it was a case of them being too strong in the sense of "OP". It was a case of them costing a lot of kit power. Old Taric for example lost a lot of power in other places in his kit due to the power cost of having a targeted stun. The stun itself was fine, it was the sacrifices to the rest of his kit that caused issues. The only reason he retained functionality is because auras have to be really strong or people complain that they are too weak and old Taric had two different auras in his kit that kept getting buffed up to be noticeable.
Sire Hippington2 votesThe rest of his kit actually was pretty strong. He currently pays alot more for his Ult than he ever did for the stun...
Pierce The Veal4 votes[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I8E6nkYI,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-26T10:13:53.838+0000)
I don't think it was a case of them being too strong in the sense of "OP". It was a case of them costing a lot of kit power. Old Taric for example lost a lot of power in other places in his kit due to the power cost of having a targeted stun. The stun itself was fine, it was the sacrifices to the rest of his kit that caused issues. The only reason he retained functionality is because auras have to be really strong or people complain that they are too weak and old Taric had two different auras in his kit that kept getting buffed up to be noticeable.
It's not like he was secretly an extremely strong bruiser 1v1 duelist at the time or anything.
Earl Eulrich2 votesgood lord, i just loved dueling 6item jax in Dominion and smashing them as they felt invulnerable and got manhandled by the most manliest support ever. I really hate his rework, it took away everything that made him a man and instead made him a pretty little princess that hides in the backline.
Pierce The Veal2 votes[{quoted}](name=Earl Eulrich,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=I8E6nkYI,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2017-03-26T16:44:42.189+0000)
good lord, i just loved dueling 6item jax in Dominion and smashing them as they felt invulnerable and got manhandled by the most manliest support ever. I really hate his rework, it took away everything that made him a man and instead made him a pretty little princess that hides in the backline.
This.
I have yet to see a rework that actually made the champion more interesting than they were before. At best, they just became needlessly more complex.
ModAcademy Kayn3 votesWas once accused of hacking for 1v1'ing a Jax with Taric, full tank with the addition of Iceborn gauntlet.
Seenan3 votesTF is really the only issue. Ryze has one root (not a stun) every 8 seconds, Annie has one after 4 spell casts (she'll never stun you in a full rotation without ult and E), but TF? Has that available every 5 seconds, even less I believe with CDR.
Murl0ugh3 votesHow is TF an issue when you can see when he is about to use his stun? Get away from him while he has the shiny yellow card above his head, wait for him to lose it by waiting out the timer, then go in and punish him.
If he flashes in to stun I can see that being annoying but not "a problem." He burns a flash to land a stun that he shouldn't be able to kill you with unless hes already ahead and EVEN THEN if TF is such a buttache for you grab cleanse in champ select and when he wastes his flash to stun you you pretty much got spoonfed a kill.
These are referring to laning phase obviously. Also am bronze so if I missed something don't be surprised.
SpecterVonBaren2 votesThis is not to mention the power distribution of his kit. His passive and ult aren't in combat tools and his E isn't always going to be up. He gives up a lot of solo power for his ganking ability.
Jet Sett3 votesRyze's is a root and TF isn't a threat without cc, and very few champs have kits that NEED someone else to work right.
ModCaptainMårvelous2 votesI wouldn't even call TF an AP Carry. He can do a lot of damage but it's more so burst than sustained. His gold card is nice but it's also very windowed comparative to something like old Taric/Sion. In addition, it's based on auto-range. Which is 525. That's not very far. Ryze doesn't have a stun so I'll just skip that.
At this point you're asking "Well why does TF get to keep his stun and Taric/Sion don't?" Simply put:
Why do you think wild cards are slow-moving and poor at clearing unless they're in a straight line? Why do you think TF's passive and R have zero damage while his E is 155 (+50% AP) damage at max rank. Ryze has his root but he's busted and shouldn't be an example to follow. (Frankly he shouldn't have his root be a PaC)
TF has to cycle through to his gold card as well as land it in the alloted time. Sion/Taric clicked you and stunned you. In Sion's case, instantly. "Oh but messing up your TF ca-" EVEN PROS have messed up the gold card. It's not always as easy as it looks under circumstances.
The Deckowner2 votes
's entire play style is revolved around ult+gold card, without that combo he is literally useless.
in the other hand tho.......
