How do you beat Singed?

heroikc·Jun 8, 2017·2 votes·5,917 views

Twice, I've played top lane against a Singed who grabbed Deathfire Touch and a Dark Seal, and maybe some AP runes, and he is (quite literally) burning me! And most of my team in later parts of the game! How do I shut him down? I know the biggest tip is to not chase him or let him fling you, but, to me, that limits me to either leaving him alone (and that isn't my style, and letting him farm is not a good idea either) or grabbing a champion with more poke and kite than him (which was probably the only thing that allowed me to maintain lane control in my second game against him. Barely.) So is there any other viable strategy I could use to counter Singed?

70 Comments

SEKAIJun 8, 20173 votes

Singed doesn't scale very well, though his early game is crazy good.

One way to combat him is to farm under turret, classic countermeasure, and force Singed to proxy farm between your first and second turret. And you will simply ignore him and let him farm his while you farm yours.

Due to the lack of innate sustain, it's only a matter of time before he goes down from taking damage from minions. You can always call up your adjacent laners or junglers to come and clean him out when he's low.

I don't see Singed often, and I typically play norms so my advise is clearly elementary in this regard. But hey, it's something I suppose.

Just remember, don't give extended chase on Singed, this is especially true in early game.

heroikcJun 8, 20172 votes

I've seen how potent his early game is, but I don't understand what's wrong with his scaling. Is it a matter of his abilities' ratios? Or just his stats' scaling?

So I just wait under tower, last hitting minions as he proxies right behind me? What if he tries to proxy between my second tower and base/third tower? Follow the same tactics but hope you can catch him? Or call in backup to catch him offguard?

I don't know if Singed is making so comeback or if there is something else going on, but I have been banning Singed lately, just in case.

Still, thank you for your advice.

SEKAIJun 9, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I've seen how potent his early game is, but I don't understand what's wrong with his scaling. Is it a matter of his abilities' ratios? Or just his stats' scaling?

I'd like to think it's a combination of a couple factors. First of all, he only has like 1 source of damage, while the base is great, the scaling isn't too great, it's 60% AP so to speak, but that's over the entire durable of the DoT, it's 7.5% scaling per tick. Secondly, with enough experience, it's possible to avoid most of the trail's damage by running parallel to Singed. Thirdly, Singed is mostly played top, where many tankier characters live, and they build resistances, even with the more offensive characters, they still have options such as Hexdrinker to use. Also, Singed doesn't really build AP, in fact, Rylai's is often his only AP item in his inventory, due to the fact he has to run straight into the enemy to do things and that he wants to proxy farm without needing to back constantly or getting killed easily, hence Singed mostly builds tank, offing his (damage) potential in the long run. Last by not means least, his kit is pretty bad outside of lane/pushing by design, so that contribute greatly too.

So I just wait under tower, last hitting minions as he proxies right behind me? What if he tries to proxy between my second tower and base/third tower? Follow the same tactics but hope you can catch him? Or call in backup to catch him offguard?

As mentioned, the general rule is just to ignore him. He will whittle himself from the minion damage in due time, that's when you can just corner and kill him. Or even if that's taking a while due to him building tank, which most Singed does, that's still 1 person in the middle of enemy territory, it's still very risky for him because you can always just pull 2 people over and gank him easily.

However, it depends on how much of a scale machine you are. If you're playing someone who scales well, you can just ignore him entirely and focus on farming and taking turrets. Because it should be him come to look after you, and not the other way around. If you're not so good of a scaler, then do pay him some attention once in a while as you farm yours and he farms his.

One thing to watch out though: There is a popular tactic for Singed is building the Zzrot Portal which they would place the hive under their turret (often "behind" the turret and make it not targetable hence you can't destroy it without killing the turret first). This is done so that they can still push your first turret while they're proxy farming somewhere after your first turret, as the stream of void bugs will run down the lane, empowering the minion wave and force you to stay to deal with the swarm, and locking it so you can't push because you no longer have minion waves to back you up (as he's proxy farming behind), while also slowly pushing down your turret with tiny damages that eventually pile up. This is sadistic, but effective. I am not too sure how to deal with this either, but a wise thing to do is as soon as you spot Singed pulling this, call your team to commit and gank him dead or at least run him out of your side with HP so low they have to recall, which in that case you will group push to run the tower down and remove the hive.

It's generally recommended to remove Singed's first tower as soon as possible (and don't chase him, at least not an extended one).

But again, I don't have authority on this given that I play norms.

Need Gold 4 TentJun 9, 20172 votes

THAT IS A VERY GOOD TIP! Re: the zz'rot, I mean. I never knew that, and I'm gonna use it on laners other than Singed now!

DeathBurstJun 9, 20172 votes

Sekai is out of his mind. Singed is a well known late game champ. He does have innate sustain in his R, and he almost always buy a Catalyst for even more sustain, when it's not Corrupting Potion + 3 Dark Seal.

SEKAIJun 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sekai is out of his mind. Singed is a well known late game champ. He does have innate sustain in his R, and he almost always buy a Catalyst for even more sustain, when it's not Corrupting Potion + 3 Dark Seal.

Sure it's an all-in-one steroid and is pretty good for sustaining and general purpose, but idk, I don't really classify using ulti for sustain as an "innate sustain". Not to mention, Singed doesn't start the game with lvl 6 anyway, and a lot of times the lane phase end around lvl 6 too so it's not like it plays a big role in terms of laning.

As with items, yeah they're great, and that's how Singed can proxy for quite a long period of time even in early levels without needing to back every 30 seconds. But again, those are not "innate".

Also, I don't get how Singed is a "well-known late game champ". Late-game is all about who can take objectives and skirmish, Singed is not optimal or desired in either. On that basis he can't be classified as a late-game champ. Early and/or mid-game at most.

DeathBurstJun 9, 20171 votes

This ult has a 25 s duration with a 100 s base CD. That's a 25% uptime, even with no CDR at all. I do call that some innate sustain. And if your laning phases end at level 6, we must not be playing the same game.

And yes, items are technically not "innates", but... Singed overwhelmingly opts into early sustain with all his builds, be it Corrupting Potion and 2-3 Dark Seals or with an early Catalyst. So saying that he will get low because he has no "innate" sustain is really misleading. If you count on him getting low, you're in for a bad moment, and suggesting to someone asking for advice about how to play against him "just wait for him to get low" is a bad advice.

On the late-game part though, I must admit that the most meta builds for Singed right now aren't actually good for late game, and usually aim for a strong mid-game powerspike instead. I was still thinking about the old Mana/AP build from last year, which was quite potent in late game. But when you say "Late-game is all about who can take objectives and skirmish", yeah, you're spot on. And what do you call forcing 3 people to chase you on one side of the map when your team is taking objectives on the other side? The amount of pressure a Singed can create is wonderful to take objectives.

SEKAIJun 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This ult has a 25 s duration with a 100 s base CD. That's a 25% uptime, even with no CDR at all. I do call that some innate sustain. And if your laning phases end at level 6, we must not be playing the same game.

I will admit that I in fact did not consider the up-time of the ulti and was only looking at the CD. Yeah, its CD is pretty low. But still that's an ulti which you need lvl 6 first.

Maybe it's to do with the fact I play mostly norm where people don't give a shit. But from my personal experience, lane phase tend to end around reaching level 6, mostly right after, lvl 7-8 at most. Because even if your lane's lane-phase isn't done, the other lanes would've finished theirs by that point and global skirmish begins (and usually one of you has to leave to "attend business", a completely frozen top-lane isn't common from my side).

But that's just my experience.

And yes, items are technically not "innates", but... Singed overwhelmingly opts into early sustain with all his builds, be it Corrupting Potion and 2-3 Dark Seals or with an early Catalyst. So saying that he will get low because he has no "innate" sustain is really misleading. If you count on him getting low, you're in for a bad moment, and suggesting to someone asking for advice about how to play against him "just wait for him to get low" is a bad advice.

I did self-correct some of that in a follow up clarification to OP in that I suggested it's better to pull people to end him rather than simply waiting for him to die from minions because Singed will build tank/sustain (since I clarified that Singed in fact almost never build AP, and builds mostly tank and sustain-focused).

But yes, I should be clearer about it. Not sure if OP did catch the drift.

On the late-game part though, I must admit that the most meta builds for Singed right now aren't actually good for late game, and usually aim for a strong mid-game powerspike instead. I was still thinking about the old Mana/AP build from last year, which was quite potent in late game. But when you say "Late-game is all about who can take objectives and skirmish", yeah, you're spot on. And what do you call forcing 3 people to chase you on one side of the map when your team is taking objectives on the other side? The amount of pressure a Singed can create is wonderful to take objectives.

I've had Singeds who pulled what you were describing, where he would splitpush and force people to go after him so that he could create openings for his team to exploit. That's pretty grand and very deadly, sure.

But I still wouldn't consider him a late-game champ, a splitpusher at most really. For me, a champ who's relevant and effective in late doesn't mean they're a late-game champ.

...........

Then again, I never said to OP that I'm being the terminal of this as I clarified it multiple times that it's from my personal experience in norms. And that I am no authority on this.

DeathBurstJun 9, 20172 votes

No offense meant, I realize that I may have come off as a bit rude. My goal was only to not let OP go away with a wrong idea of how to play against Singed, but I'm open to more detailed discussion.

I did play Singed in Ranked, mostly around Silver 4 MMR (it's a bit complicated, my MMR is around Gold 5 in Flex, and yo-yo'ed between Bronze 1 and Silver 3 in Solo/Duo, because I don't play the same champs in both queues), and I maintained a 60% winrate over 60 games with him, but it was already a few months ago, before Righteous Glory became the absolute must buy on him, so my information are a bit outdated.

Even now, I really don't like the Righteous Glory build, even if it's theoretically the stronger build at the moment it does not correspond to my playstyle. It doesn't scale well into late game at all. When you say that a champ simply "relevant and effective in late" isn't really "a late-game champ" I do kinda agree, but with more AP/Mana-heavy builds, Singed ultimately reaches some critical mass where he's dealing a lot of damage that enemy carries can't ignore while at the same time being very tanky through his passive Mana to HP conversion, and is a bad target for focus. You can delay this state if you beat him in lane, but even a 0-9 Singed will eventually come on-line, and when he finally does, there is no stopping him. That's why Singed is really a late-game champ in my mind. So once again, this is not currently his meta build, but it WAS his meta build some months ago and it was what he was known for (and this is still my preferred build and how I personally see Singed).

heroikcJun 9, 20171 votes

A catalyst into rod of ages, I'm guessing.

DeathBurstJun 9, 20171 votes

Well, I personally like RoA a lot, but the meta build is more Righteous Glory, actually. The build path for RG will change in the next patch, so I'm actually curious how the builds for Singed will shift around that, but we'll see...

heroikcJun 9, 20171 votes

I would see why they would prefer that: more movement speed. It's getting changed? Now I'm curious. Any idea why?

DeathBurstJun 10, 20171 votes

Why they're changing Righteous Glory buildpath? It's related to the pass on Tank Support items, nothing to do with Singed. They're making more items with defensive stats + an utility passive build out of Glacial Shroud, which is intended to be the go-to component for Tank Supports, and Righteous Glory is one of the items affected, where the Catalyst is replaced by the Glacial Shroud. Knight's Vow too is getting a Shroud instead of the current chainmail, and they reworked Zeke into something complicated.

On the other hand, Abyssal is getting a Catalyst instead of the Specter's Cowl.

So back to Singed, he really likes both the Catalyst passive AND the active on Righteous Glory. Now that he won't be able to get both at the same time, I wonder what the meta build will evolve into. Maybe Righteous Glory then Abyssal, but that makes no Armor.

Anyway, as far as I am concerned, my personal RoA/Rylai/ZZ'rot build is unchanged. It's not meta, but I'm still playing in mid-Silver so I can get away with it, and I much prefer RoA over RG: RG offers no damage at all, and not even more HP/Mana than a stacked RoA, so you're really trading just the active versus all the AP on RoA, and if you take Ghost and use your R, you're already damn fast and don't really need that active, IMHO. The build path is a bit more dangerous on RoA, but I'll take the risk. No promises, the meta is usually meta for a good reason, and it's probably not optimal at higher Elos, but at my level, I have more fun like that.

heroikcJun 11, 20171 votes

I sort of figured Singed didn't have a big role in it. So Glacial Shroud is the new support item? Abyssal Mask gets Catalyst? Should make for some interesting builds for magic tanks (Amumu, Cho, and Gragas). If Righteous Glory is getting Glacial Shroud, then doesn't Singed still get armor if he builds it?
Well, RoA gives more stats the longer you keep it, so it boosts Singed's late game...to a degree. Meh, fair enough; as long as it doesn't screw you over too much.

DeathBurstJun 12, 20171 votes

Shroud is the new Tank Item. The equivalent of what Forbidden Idol is for Enchanters. You can always build one, you'll find something to do with it, even if what exactly depends on the exact game.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the new Abyssal. Not on Cho, I'll still make RoA on him, but for Amumu, Malphite, Maokai, etc. I don't play Gragas myself, and I need to test if I prefer RoA or Abyssal on Gallio. But Catalyst is an OP component, so I'm always happy to have more items with it in their build path.

Yeah, Singed would get Armor from the new Righteous Glory, my bad. I was talking about the new version but still had the stats of the old version stuck in my head ^^'

heroikcJun 12, 20171 votes

Shroud does fit in to alot of builds...but it bugs me that many support tanks do not have many support items that give much health (I typically see Locket of Iron Solari and Frozen Heart as the "essential" items for most support tanks).

Yeah, Cho works well with RoA...But Amumu and Maokai could use Abyssal quite well in theory. Yeah, the way you can heal and restore mana with catalyst is nice.

No worries; we get details jumbled all the time.

DeathBurstJun 12, 20171 votes

Sightstone has HP, and most Tank Supports go for a Relic Shield into a full FotM, from what I see, no combined GP10+Sightstone item. That's already a lot of HP.

Funkin DunkinJun 8, 20172 votes

Ignore him and farm. Then wait till he gets caught out doing proxy

heroikcJun 8, 20172 votes

I was afraid of the first part >.< Goes against my style. And the last time he did that, he ran into tower to execute himself...Should I try to catch him or at least damage him to get credit or just resume farming?

Funkin DunkinJun 9, 20172 votes

Unless your jungler and mid are in position to pinch him, don't bother chasing.

Zykklon BJun 8, 20172 votes

When Singed is taken from me I play shitt like GP although im not that good on my barrels, try playing champions that scale such as Nasus Fiora Gangplank Camille

Singed is so stupid aggressive My build goes item 1082 item 2031 and Deathfire and can pretty much 1v1 anyone early game

heroikcJun 8, 20172 votes

I know; It burns people alive. So I should play champs with strong late game potential?

Zykklon BJun 8, 20172 votes

Pretty much

He scales bad but still has carry potential even if he is 0-9

heroikcJun 8, 20172 votes

Guess so. Thanks.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERJun 8, 20172 votes

You either ask for a gank or don't do anything really, chasing him will just cause you to burn out.

If he's proxy farming force him out of the lane via a gank and make sure he's low enough so that he'll have to think twice before coming back.

heroikcJun 8, 20172 votes

Well, guess it's some sort of plan.

420 gramsJun 8, 20172 votes

You have to leave him alone or don't chase him in his poison. You can still follow after him at a different angle. But really you should just be taking short trades and farming to out scale him.

heroikcJun 8, 20172 votes

Leaving him alone is the only viable tactic? I guess I need to invest more in poke-heavy champions, don't I?

Asayake 5150glowJun 8, 20172 votes

He's basically an early game juggernaut minus the counterplay.

You gotta leave him alone as he will outduel almost everyone.

heroikcJun 9, 20171 votes

At least until you get MR items, right?

Asayake 5150glowJun 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

At least until you get MR items, right?

AD MR items, for the most part, will not cut it if you are playing a bruiser.

Tank MR items won't either because he will out DPS you since you don't have enough damage.

For other juggernauts, probably.

heroikcJun 9, 20171 votes

I was afraid of that. So wait for late game?

Asayake 5150glowJun 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I was afraid of that. So wait for late game?

Basically, yep.

Make sure to ping if he goes missing and buy a Tiamat so you can hard shove to punish his roams, but don't try to fight him if he comes up behind you, just run.

heroikcJun 9, 20171 votes

Well, at least I own plenty of late game champs.

Friendly RamJun 9, 20172 votes

Pick susan and just free farm outide of tower when he proxies and wither when he tries to engage

DeathBurstJun 9, 20172 votes

You can't really "beat" Singed. What's important is being as fed as him.

If you spent 45 seconds chasing him, even if you kill him in the end without dying yourself, he's still ahead, because you lost 1 wave and a half of minions, which is worth a lot of Gold, and even more importantly, a lot of XP.

Singed is a strange champ in that he fundamentally warps the game. The basic question you have to ask isn't anymore "Can I beat my opponent?", but instead "What's the more productive use of my time?" You should spend most of your time CS'ing, and only try to collapse on him and focus him if you are 3 people and can do it quickly. Otherwise, just let him farm, and simply farm better than him.

Also, if your champ can use it, rush a ZZ'rot. Past this point, if he tries to proxy, he's just giving you a free tower. Not saying you should rush a ZZrot on Fiora or like that, but if it's not totally absurd on your champ, rush it as first item, and take towers.

heroikcJun 9, 20171 votes

So get someone with good inlane sustain (and thus can farm for a long while) and/or someone who can build zz'rot? Did I get that right?

DeathBurstJun 9, 20171 votes

Yeah, if you have the opportunity. Thing is, sometimes you pick before him and you don't have a choice. What's important, beyond the champ/build, is the mental shift: your goal is to maximize use of your time, and not let him waste it. You cannot really shut him down, so you have to be as useful as he will be. And running in circles in the Jungle is not being useful.

heroikcJun 9, 20171 votes

Fair enough. Thanks.

Meep ManJun 9, 20172 votes

You gotta out maneuver him. If you can predict his path of movement and possibly get an ally or two to help, you can shut him down easily. Singed is a tough cookie when it comes to catching and killing him though. It's a constant that you just gotta have to kind of accept. His entire design makes him that way.

DoozkuJun 9, 20172 votes

If he's proxying, let him farm. Unless you are an early game powerhouse in which case you can probably kill him. Almost every champion in this game out scales singed, because his usefulness begins to fall-off hard.

heroikcJun 9, 20171 votes

Yeah, just like Evelynn and Shaco XD

TimX24968BJun 11, 20172 votes

you don't have to beat him to win, you just have to not fight him and know he has very little usefulness other than wasting your time. in-lane, you are going to want someone with a strong early game, but once early game comes to a close, just don't bother with him anymore. not worth the time.