A Viable Nerf to One of the Best Late Top Laners

Luke Vepoh··2 votes·1,246 views

Well, We all love how Nasus can scale infinitely into the late game, except the other team. I am not saying we nerf his Q or his Passive because that would completely demolish the point of Nasus , but what I am saying is we do some work on his W (wither). A 1000 stack Nasus should have reward for farming up to the late game but there is nothing more annoying than the ADC having to pay for top lanes ability to zone Nasus . Which actually isn't the easiest to do. For example Nasus 's stats right now on his wither is 47 / 59 / 71 / 83 / 95% which I do not mind seeing much of a difference maybe 30 / 45 / 60 / 70 / 85% that way it does not change the slow potential too much but the thing that annoys ADC's trying to kite this 1 or 2 q Nasus is his ability to drop that slow and drop an extra attack speed debuff which is 23.5 / 29.5 / 35.5 / 41.5 / 47.5% which actually is really game changing, and if you add a item 3110 on that which adds even more of attack speed debuff steroids which is just a bit over powered with very little counter play other than a quick silver sash. Riot should either severely nerf the attack speed debuff or remove it completely. If you think about it even exhaust a summoner compared to an ability cant attack speed steroid that much. I was just thinking nerf the stats to around 10 / 12.5 / 15 / 17.5 / 20% that way with the item 3110 which every Nasus player builds will still be balanced. To put this in perspective Nasus max wither has an 11 second cool down and it stays on for 5 seconds so your wither goes on cool down for about 6 seconds, and that is without any cool down reduction. All Nasus players also get 40% cool down reduction .

TL;DR Nerf Atack speed debuff on Nasus and lower Max Movespeed debuff a bit. Or increase the cooldown.

44 Comments

darkdill5 votes

QSS destroys Nasus' Wither. If you're being focused by his Wither, use it to purge the effect and kill him before he can use it again. Or wait until after he's used it sub-optimally (i.e. on one of your teammates) to attack him.

Alternatively, your Support could take Mikael's Crucible and purge Wither off you.

GinoSoldier1 votes

{quoted}

QSS destroys Nasus' Wither. If you're being focused by his Wither, use it to purge the effect and kill him before he can use it again. Or wait until after he's used it sub-optimally (i.e. on one of your teammates) to attack him.

Alternatively, your Support could take Mikael's Crucible and purge Wither off you.

Mikael's Crucible is a waste of space stat-wise. As important as kiting is, that item is completely unviable in most situations and basically wastes an item slot.

Granted at high elo a player MIGHT have the presence of mind to use it's active, but even then, used too early you are highly likely to just get CCed more especially in teamfights, and if too late, then the active is pretty much wasted.

I'm saying that if the item were to become useful, it needs to give some AP and/or health and/or Armor/extra MR. Minimal MR and mana regen. 10% cooldown which just ends up stacking with other supp items over 40%, don't make a decent item. Besides, what's the real worth of it's active when you can usually scale your own champion's spells to be much more powerful and accessible by far by building AP or tank?

darkdill1 votes

That's why Mikael's is situational, and if the Nasus is giving your ADC hell with those Withers, Mikael can be a solution. All it takes is 1 appropriate use of it to turn a game around at times.

ofart5 votes

I hate Nasus but I think he'd see competitive play if he was actually OP.

darkdill1 votes

He does occasionally, but pros know how to beat him, or just counterpick him with Rumble, Irelia, Rengar, etc.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

He does occasionally, but pros know how to beat him, or just counterpick him with Rumble, Irelia, Rengar, etc.

Nasus beats Irelia p easy tbh

Rumble can be annoying as fuck, especially if he gets ahead. But flask + potions > SV rush deals with him really well. The concern here is when Rumble feels like he can no longer bully Nasus, he just roams mid and collects kill with his ult. Rengar is annoying as shit but can be played around.

darkdill2 votes

You have to consider how well Irelia, Rumble and Rengar can be used at pro-level play. If Nasus tries to engage onto Irelia, she just stuns him and walks off, or dashes to a minion to get away and make Nasus waste Wither.

Rengar can jump at Nasus every time he wants to kill a minion, making Nasus pay for every CS he gets. Wither doesn't affect Rengar much either.

Rumble can stop Nasus' pushes and early on can really delay that Spirit Visage if he plays hardcore lane bully.

But there's also more counters for Nasus than just those three. I just listed some common ones. Check Champion.GG for more Nasus counters if you like; he's got a LOT of bad matchups.

Want one I find really good? Trundle. Subjugate Nasus and he becomes squishy. Coordinated team fire after that will drop Nasus as if he were an ADC.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

You have to consider how well Irelia, Rumble and Rengar can be used at pro-level play. If Nasus tries to engage onto Irelia, she just stuns him and walks off, or dashes to a minion to get away and make Nasus waste Wither.

Rengar can jump at Nasus every time he wants to kill a minion, making Nasus pay for every CS he gets. Wither doesn't affect Rengar much either.

Rumble can stop Nasus' pushes and early on can really delay that Spirit Visage if he plays hardcore lane bully.

But there's also more counters for Nasus than just those three. I just listed some common ones. Check Champion.GG for more Nasus counters if you like; he's got a LOT of bad matchups.

Okay, then don't wither Irelia for no reason lol. Just Q her off cool-down once you're strong enough to out-trade her and wither is a strong enough disengage to reduce her DPS. His sustain + wither make farming vs her easy.

Rumble is annoying as fuck early, no doubt. But typically, Rumble shoves lanes really hard. So while he does harass well under tower, flask + potion spam give you enough sustain with his passive to farm that gold out. You will probably be behind some but once you get spirit visage, you can just straight up all-in rumble with ghost.

Rengar is annoying, too. And of the 3 listed, he has the highest potential for denying. But typically, cloth + 5 start gives you enough sustain to deal with his harass until you're under tower. And by level 7, you can just kill him with ease because they always go full glass cannon.

I don't need to check that shit, I have 1,000+ games with him since season 2. I could literally write an entire guide on all of his match-ups and rate it better than those sites ever could.

darkdill2 votes

Well, there's always the possibility that the enemy team might laneswap and put Nasus into a 1v2 scenario. What then?

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Well, there's always the possibility that the enemy team might laneswap and put Nasus into a 1v2 scenario. What then?

That rarely works out well in solo queue, even at the highest levels

darkdill1 votes

I'm not talking about Solo Queue. I'm talking about pro level play. 2v1 top lane scenarios are more common there, and that's where Riot balances most Champions.

Balancing someone for Solo Queue just doesn't work.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not talking about Solo Queue. I'm talking about pro level play. 2v1 top lane scenarios are more common there, and that's where Riot balances most Champions.

Balancing someone for Solo Queue just doesn't work.

I'm speaking from a solo queue level, but I'm telling you even at pro play, Nasus would do fine vs those champions I mentioned. Nasus isn't viable competitively, he's too easy to kite and starve out early game. I'm not making a case for him being a goto top tier laner in pro play, I'm just telling you those match-ups aren't that hard.

SaltyKracka1 votes

{coughVLADcough}

NateKiller1 votes

{quoted}

{coughVLADcough}

Vlad is a walking +6 after SV+sheen

SaltyKracka1 votes

You're funny. Rylai's Vlad is a champ Nasus can literally do nothing about.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

You're funny. Rylai's Vlad is a champ Nasus can literally do nothing about.

item 3111 summoner 6 don't exist

SaltyKracka1 votes

item 3157 and his W don't exist.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

item 3157 and his W don't exist.

So he's going to use zhonyas and allow Nasus time to close the gap while he's in stasis? Kinda making muh point here

SaltyKracka1 votes

And then once he's out of item 3157 and summoner 6 has run out, he trollpools away to kite you forever and a day? I'd say my point is fairly obvious.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

And then once he's out of item 3157 and summoner 6 has run out, he trollpools away to kite you forever and a day? I'd say my point is fairly obvious.

You're assuming he's still alive after that point, which is hilarious. Not to mention wither is a thing.

SaltyKracka1 votes

Are you maxing Wither second? Against Vlad?

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Are you maxing Wither second? Against Vlad?

yeah actually I do, for the CD reduction for better chasing. It's not like he armors heavy armor, so there's no need to max E second.

SaltyKracka1 votes

I'd say in the context of this discussion item 3157 is heavy armor the same wayitem 3065 is heavy magic resist.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I'd say in the context of this discussion item 3157 is heavy armor the same wayitem 3065 is heavy magic resist.

Except Spirit Visage offers more effective resistances, HP as well as 20% healing increasing. You can't compare them in this scenario, naturally vlad has good synergy with Zhonyas but it's not nearly the same power spike in this duel the way spirit visage is to nasus,

SaltyKracka1 votes

That much AP also gives Vlad HP, and more damage + spellvamp=More health.

Don't forget, Nasus needs to rush SV just to be able to try to stay in lane against vlad.

Miraweave1 votes

{quoted}

That much AP also gives Vlad HP, and more damage + spellvamp=More health.

Don't forget, Nasus needs to rush SV just to be able to try to stay in lane against vlad.

Only 168 hp.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

That much AP also gives Vlad HP, and more damage + spellvamp=More health.

Don't forget, Nasus needs to rush SV just to be able to try to stay in lane against vlad.

It doesn't give him that much more HP, and it doesn't contribute to his spell vamp much outside of the HP scaling his pool has. You're also trying to make an argument that a core item on Nasus being rushed is a bad thing, it isn't. You could argue Nasus is quite possibly the best champion for an item like spirit visage as it literally gives him everything he wants while having amazing synergy. HP, MR, HP regen, increased healing and CDR. While Zhonyas is core on vlad and arguably a much larger power spike for him in team-fights relative to Nasus with spirit visage, for dueling sake, spirit visage is much more powerful of an item to Nasus than Zhonyas is to Vlad.

SaltyKracka1 votes

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, merely that rushing Spirit Visage is the first of many steps a Nasus needs to take before he can even get on an even footing with a Vlad.

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, merely that rushing Spirit Visage is the first of many steps a Nasus needs to take before he can even get on an even footing with a Vlad.

Probably yes, but you're making it sound like Nasus will only have a spirit visage while Vlad somehow completed Zhonyas, Rylais and Boots 2, which isn't the case outside of heavy snowballing. And we aren't discussing snowball potential, we're discussing duel potential. And the Vlad/Nasus match up can be very snowbally either way until Nasus gets 4 items, at which point Vlad can't do a thing to him regardless.

SaltyKracka1 votes

Actually, the stated case that started this whole hypothetical war was that a Nasus could run all over Vlad with only SV and a Sheen.

As for items, well, a Vlad will outfarm a Nasus if they're matched up. That's just a given.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Actually, the stated case that started this whole hypothetical war was that a Nasus could run all over Vlad with only SV and a Sheen.

As for items, well, a Vlad will outfarm a Nasus if they're matched up. That's just a given.

You don't really even need a sheen to be honest. I'd prefer the tier two boots for additional MS and MR over sheen, which cost the same price. And at most, Nasus is out-farmed by 20-30 CS in a solo lane match-up with no jungler intervention (which is never going to happen in this match-up). 20-30 CS alone isn't getting Vlad a big ticket item like Zhonyas.

ofart1 votes

When? Can you give a single game as an example this year from LCS/LCK/LPL?

Jeddy0171 votes

I don't know about the LCK or LPL,but I know he hasn't been picked or banned in the LCS this year. But the last time he was played in the LCS was in a TSM vs DIG game last year during the summer playoffs.

But to answer your question,Nasus haven't been played during the 2015 season so far.Who knows?Someone somewhere in the world could randomly pull him out.Though I doubt it thanks to a thing called lane swaps.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

I don't know about the LCK or LPL,but I know he hasn't been picked or banned in the LCS this year. But the last time he was played in the LCS was in a TSM vs DIG game last year during the summer playoffs.

But to answer your question,Nasus haven't been played during the 2015 season so far.Who knows?Someone somewhere in the world could randomly pull him out.Though I doubt it thanks to a thing called lane swaps.

Well, here's the thing..if a team wanted a make a Nasus comp that focused on getting Nasus farmed, they could...easily. But Nasus, especially in organized play, is shit for teamfighting. And if you want him to split-push, why play him over Jax who doesn't require as much farm and has more snowball potential overall and isn't so gimped by lack of farm. For example, what would you take? A 4/0 Nasus with 90 CS at 20 minutes or a 4/0 Jax with 90 CS at 20 minutes. You're going to take the Jax and you'd be a fool not to.

The thing is, Nasus is best mid-game because by mid game, he's going to be decently farmed, hit like a truck and have 2 tank items while everyone else is lower level due to solo lane experience and won't have %pen items yet. So it's at this point where Nasus still hits like a truck, is hard as fuck to kite and his E/R do their most effective damage at this point. Thing is, in pro play, they can easily deny him this heavy mid game spikes by the exact method you pointed out: lane swapping. Because in pro play, he'd be using mid-game to farm up instead of already being farmed. And his split-pushing just isn't that great because he's forced to fight or die, whereas Jax can waste your time with Q + ward hops and escape collapses that Nasus can't. Half of split-pushing is pressure alone, which comes from the form of being able to take towers while also being able to waste your time by hoping around while your team secures objectives. With Nasus, they just send 3 up, kill him and sure they give up a dragon or tower but in exchange, they'll take a tower or even two themselves while Nasus is dead so the trade-off is never bad. Naturally this isn't as true in solo queue because of lack of fluid communication but in competitive, we're talking an entirely different ball game.

I'll give you Nasus' competitive stats as a top laner since late season 3 to present: 3-11. In many of those games, he WAS farmed but he was too easy to kite around and his split-push was never threatening for the reason I mentioned above. What made him work in rare occasions was running heavy wave clearing comps ala Ziggs or even Ori and stalling forever while Nasus split-push. Not only has Riot killed afk safe non interactive wave clearing for long ranged mages because it's lame as fuck in general, it's also killed a really toxic style of Split pushing that SKT1 basically used to win worlds in season 3 with Gragas wave clear comps + Jax split pushing.

HateDaddy4 votes

I feel like you spent more time selecting the Nasus icons than you could've by just typing Nasus lol

Mikaels + QSS shits on Nasus' already underwhelming teamfight as it is. Then there's ADC's like Twitch, Kog (with W active), Cait and Trist who completely outrange his wither. And then carries like Corki, Ez and Graves have abilities they spam as well, which yes their DPS is still reduced but by in large, they're a mixture of casters + carries anyway. You want to nerf a champion with an already weak teamfight and the nerf you're focusing on is what ruins it even further, which does nothing but encourages him to to split push even more, which is a lame tactic I admit (as a Nasus main). But it's all he can do well at this point.

If you want a change to wither, I'd suggest a change that would prevent him from chain withering with 40% CDR but also give him more range on it in return, something like his old original casting range of 700, up from 600. But as it stands, this is the last thing you should focus on when considering a nerf to Nasus. You have to also consider Riot is buffing the shit out of everything top lane EXCEPT him, so his match-ups are about to get even more difficult.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Nope. He is actually a terrible top laner because he has no impact on the other lanes. Mid and/or bot feed hard? GG Nasus gets camped and can't stack anymore (happens all the time)

Lugg1 votes

If Nasus gets camped, his team should win easily. The other jungler can focus mid and bot and get them ahead. Nasus will be a force at 30 minutes regardless of what you do early game.

Only Play Darius1 votes

I specifically stated Nasus is getting camped BECAUSE his team lost. Yes if the enemy jungler camps nasus then a good Nasus player will take advantage of it by warding and baiting turret dives with ult, but if the enemy ADC or support starts camping Nasus because they won lane so hard that there is nothing more to do down bot, then Nasus gets denied the ability to stack and since Nasus scales with farm instead of gold, he becomes useless to his team because he can't just grab a couple of assists and then buy some items to get caught up like other toplaners. He also does nothing for his team other than be an obnoxious raid boss, he has no hard CC and if the enemy team is so fed that they just ignore whatever tank items he did build, then he is worthless for his team, he is not like Amumu Sejuani Malphite who can at least help win the teamfights.

Fiora Riven Darius, despite being snowball champions, can always roam and ks a double kill from their team, even when they fall behind after losing lane. I don't think you realize how little damage Nasus does when he isn't stacked.

Lugg1 votes

Any champion that is getting camped because he team lost is going to be shut down. That's just common sense. It takes some time for that to happen, and a good Nasus will have a significant amount of stacks by that time. People forget that Nasus doesn't even need stacks to be a terror. I would much rather face a stacked Nasus than a fed Nasus. Once he has bought a couple tank items, he becomes a problem to deal with. There is always a timer with Nasus. All you can do is delay it.

Only Play Darius1 votes

{quoted}

People forget that Nasus doesn't even need stacks to be a terror.

Once he has bought a couple tank items, he becomes a problem to deal with.

Lol Nasus NEEDS stacks to be a terror because otherwise ppl just walk away from him (similar to Darius, if people ward and see him coming they just casually walk away and he has no way of getting to them without burning flash). I love how people try to categorize Nasus as a hypercarry, he is NOT a hypercarry because he doesn't have the mobility to catch up to ppl and destroy them. I don't think you have played Nasus. It is hard. as. fuck. to carry with him because in teamfights people just kite him forever, he never truly 1 shots anyone, it ALWAYS takes at least 2 Q's and after the first Q they flash away, dash away (wither is a joke because people just dash back into the protection of their team), thresh lantern, Nasus gets stunned, etc. all manner of bullshit that makes it impossible to ever land that second Q against anyone but the lowest of elo. Which is why he splitpushes, the only time people actually see him as a threat is when he is 4-shotting turrets.

The best I have ever done with Nasus was 17/0 in ranked. Hypercarry my ass, that was one of the hardest games I have ever played, it took forever to actually get into position and thanks to kiting I was always one wrong move away from dying and letting my enemy cash out on an insane amount of shutdown gold. Nothing like the real hypercarries like MasterYi Fiora Katarina where if I get fed I can just get in their face and instantly delete them, and if they flash I have more than one way to catch up to them and murder them (exceptions for Twitch KogMaw, but then against Twitch gets nice speed boost on his stealth, and neither really needs mobility because they can destroy teams from 2 screenlengths away).

I think you should play Nasus, learn thy enemy. I used to think Darius was impossible to beat, then I actually picked him up and started playing him (turns out I like Darius, him and my main Nasus are more similar than they are different). Sometimes you just have to play the champion to see what their weaknesses are. Darius is very vulnerable to all-ins when his Decimate and Apprehend are on cooldown, he is soooooo easy to kite if he misses his Apprehend, has no way to respond to ranged poke, and is ridiculously vulnerable to ganks and getting camped. He has the kit of an assassin, but has absolutely none of the mobility that the assassins enjoy. He also doesn't get any of the sustain/defensive steroids that the fighters have either. He is a splitpusher who sucks at splitpushing because he moves so slow that he can't get to safety even when he sees an ambush coming way ahead of time. The only way he can initiate is by walking up to you, so you simply walk away or kite him. All the damage he does means nothing if he can't get to you. Even if he flashes, you just flash after he apprehends you and it starts again, flash means much more to him than it does to you. And none of this I would have known if I hadn't played him.

Just play Nasus. You will see that he is quite difficult to use well, and that lack of mobility is one of the greatest weaknesses any champ can have.

Lugg1 votes

I have played Nasus. He is actually pretty easy IMHO. You build him with as much speed as you can get (items, ghost, masteries, etc). Combine that with Wither and it is very hard for anyone to get away. I couldn't even get away from one Nasus when I was Ziggs and used EVERYTHING I had to escape. Satchel charge that knocked him back and me away, minefield, didn't matter. He ran me down since wither is on a 7 second CD with max CDR.

Getting stacks on Nasus is stupidly easy. I've seen guys get 300 in 15 minutes, so you can NEVER leave him alone. This keeps the opponent top tied up the whole game. Once he gets splitpushing, have fun stopping him without 3 people.

As for Darius, his Apprehend has a longer reach than the auto attack range of ALL BUT THREE champions. So GL poking him down without going OOM.

Only Play Darius2 votes

Well of course you won't get away from Nasus in a 1v1. In teamfights his wither does nothing because he usually can't even get in wither cast range of their ADC without getting CC'ed then melted, he just has no initate.

Yes if this game was 1v1 Nasus would be god-tier. But as it stands you can lose lane to Nasus and still be fine because the the meta is such that as long as you do something useful for your team, you will never have to 1v1 him because you will always have teammates back you up every time he gets near the inhib turret.

300 stacks by 15 is typical of a Nasus main, that's what I usually get if i'm not against a lane super-bully. A good Nasus WILL find a way to get the stacks, and as such you can only bully him for so long before he gets to a point where you can no longer deal with him 1v1. That's why you roam. Like I said there are games where my opponent completely abandons the lane and literally never comes back, I take both turrets but it doesn't matter because his team won't let me get the inhib turret and Nasus's waveclear is surprisingly slow.

Lugg1 votes

But that is what you want in teamfights. You want them to focus you so your other carries can go ham and win the fight. You actually use your wither to peel for your other carries. If you do that, you win the game.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Somewhere, the Hand of Noxus is requesting his brother to give him the facepalm.

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