Riot should revert Shen's changes (like Kog)

Cowgirl Ed··7 votes·1,294 views

I was a Shen player. I played him all through Gold to climb to Plat last season, and as someone who enjoyed playing someone everyone else thought was boring, it was pretty good. Shen had a lot of versatility and could flex easily between top and support. He had specific advantages (poke, sustain, damage reduction, his global). He even had a secondary benefit as a support, as his Q could regenerate his ADC's health too. Did you know it used to do that? It doesn't anymore. More importantly, he had meaningful counterplay. His ult is a channel. Everything he does is short range besides the ult, and it's predictable. He had energy regen to manage, and missing his taunt put him at a real disadvantage. Moreover, being tanky wouldn't be enough to overcome a big enough team disadvantage. In other words, strong, but limited. Clearly, something had to change.

Does anyone even play new Shen? It's terrible. His Q no longer sustains and has even less range, so you absolutely must use E to guarantee a trade (otherwise they will just walk away). His E no longer gives damage reduction, so instead of feeling like a way to draw damage while being beefier, now you just draw fire and die. But wait, they gave him ninja-like circular dodge mechanic, right? Which means you better hope they don't use any spells, or that you didn't miss your taunt and again, they simply walk away.

Shen's old W required careful timing. Using it well meant a good Shen could block a lot of damage. Using it wrong meant you blocked nothing and wasted energy. He still has a shield, but now it's tied to your cooldowns... meaning you don't get to shield when you want to. Instead, you're forced to shield as a result of needing to use an ability. It's an awful design, and removing the ability of a player to decide when to use his shield just makes no sense to me. It already required good timing. Now it's mindless. It just happens.

I understand new Shen can taunt monsters now. So you can jungle Shen. I'm not even going to say anything else about that.

I realize probably no one else cares about Shen, but he's a champion in League just like every other. He was in a good place, and the "rework" has seriously fallen flat in anything like a positive shift. He's less effective AND less popular. So I would ask Riot to consider reverting the Shen changes, the way they did with Kog. I understand that Kog was reverted because Riot felt he was unbalanceable, but this is just the other end of the spectrum. A change that went too far down instead of up.

tl;dr, Riot ruined Shen and should change him back. just reposting one of the many unhappy Shen mains topics, there's thousands of them

30 Comments

CEXY4 votes

I couldn't agree more....

Cowgirl Ed4 votes

They themselves admitted the floating sword was just a fail, I mean why not give that to Irelia?! In fact, I believe that was an experiment for the upcoming Irelia's rework and they are going to work on Shen on a later date.

@BeatzBoyFTW: old Shen's Q was boring? Sure, like many other abilities. Was it in need to be changed or reworked? No, Shen was fine. I don't think many of you ever even played old Shen to be honest if all you're going to say is "old Q was point and click XD" or "he didn't have any scalings"

@Balterein: yes, many people I knew stopped playing Shen after giving him a try (after the rework), and considering the whine there was on the boards at the time. Old Shen was capable of output a similar amount of damage if you knew what you were doing and carefully timed W with your passive. You know, Shen never made enormous amount of damage, he dealt damage by taking none. New Shen is just an experiment with a new, useless, unwanted and unsatisfying gimmick that nobody asked for. Oh, and he is totally melee now and with no sustain, so good luck against ranged poke or lane bullies. Shen was a neutral tank, you could pick him in almost any lane and try to do good during early-mid game.

To all the people that are saying new Shen is more "engaging" than the old one, is just because now it has a huge ass floating sword that follows him (???), but you literally do the same exact thing as before, but instead of pressing Q in lane now you press right-click because you're an auto attack reliant champion. You want to fight? Ok, press E-Q then W at the same time and hope your enemy doesn't dodge your taunt otherwise you are in front of him with your pants down.

Also the OP is not what I wrote but just a repost of some dude, there's thousands of similar threads and I will repost them weekly. A revert is very unlikely, but at least do something different and change this sword thing because it's ugly, it's clunky and most of all NOBODY EVER ASKED FOR SUCH A REWORK. And again, we old players all know how bad Riot hates Shen because of his ultimate, so I can safely assume he really was just an experiment. Well, too bad for all the people that loved Shen

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

I did played the old Shen hundreds of times. Compared to current one, old Shen doesn't even require a ton of thinking to work as one.

  • You want to poke? Go near enemy laner & Q-click him.
  • CS? Q-click a minion.
  • You want to engage an enemy laner? Just don't forget to start the fight by throwing your blade first for dem heals.
  • Taking in a ton of damage? Oh jeez, lemme press my sort-of-50HP W shield & hope the passive CDR is worth something.

But with new Shen on the other hand:

  • Q needs to position simply as it can pass through the enemy for bonus damage & a slow, possibly AoE slows when successfully passing through more than 1 target.

  • Passive sword must be able to be positioned on a specific spot where I can W-block most AA from both myself & my teammates.

  • Let's say you're fighting against:

  1. Jax Someone who fully utilizes AAs for maximum damage.
  2. Fiora Someone who depends on on-hit abilities.
  3. Darius Someone who utilizes an empowered AA which comes with CC.

Would you prefer the current W where it blocks AA? Or a 50HP shield...?

Conclusion: Current Shen requires actual thinking & provides more gameplays and utilities compared to old Shen. Remind me again how can these list of sets be beaten by an old kit where you throw a blade & heals worse than Mundo's ult or Volibear's passive?

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

Is this a serious post? If you talk about old Shen this way, I highly doubt you ever understood how he worked. Useless heal? Useless shield? Do you even know the stats? You can check his old abilties on Lol Wiki I think. I'm not talking out of passion for the champ (which I have, he's my favourite champion... was...), I'm talking about pure numbers and stats.

I usually don't say this but you must be low rank, like below Platinum or something. I got to Diamond for two seasons straight using only Shen and no it doesn't mean I'm better than you, but I sure knew how to use his kit better than you.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

I mean you can't deny, those ARE all he does. Almost all of his plays were pretty much 1 dimensional: E in, throw Q with an optional AA reset, hit W on the most painful ability enemy throw out, & just continue on with the constant AA til the next Q goes off. Other than that, there's not much wide gameplay to be provided by Shen's old kit. Otherwise, I'd have more people disagreeing with me by now.

Maybe I don't do old Shen as well as you do.

https://imgur.com/iOCcnpg https://imgur.com/zQR4JEp

What I do know is I can already excel at my best with current Shen instead of constantly whining about wanting his outdated kit back.

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

And what you do with new Shen? Try to tell me how he is not one dimensional. You either all-in or not now in lane. The point of Shen was that: there was not supposed to be much gameplay, he was a NEUTRAL TANK. You could first pick him, knowing that if you were good enough you could survive lane and have an impact at early-mid game with your ultimate, rendering your opponent useless if you made a few good plays.

Read this well made post by our good friend Melledoneus https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/buh1ZsAL-riot-these-shen-changes-were-not-the-ones-you-were-looking-for-and-heres-why It was made 10 months ago but it's still a good read.

Also you don't want to understand what I'm saying, which is: new Shen is not bad, he is just not old Shen. And when we heard "rework", we thought a "new old Shen", not a "new champion called Shen". There were many ways you could have kept his identity making him more interactive, or more interesting, or less boring, or whatever (I found him very cool to play to be fair).

Adding a useless mechanic and completely change how the champion works, was not the right way, we all acknowledge that. Right?

allsin031 votes

this would be a good post but remember shen took massive nerfs to his q. where it's basically shit. even when it pass through someone its not even that strong. from a 2% of hp dmg to a 2.5%... seriously they made the shit pointless

Akenero1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GONi4yn0,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-02-27T18:17:35.459+0000)

They themselves admitted the floating sword was just a fail, I mean why not give that to Irelia?! In fact, I believe that was an experiment for the upcoming Irelia's rework and they are going to work on Shen on a later date.

@BeatzBoyFTW: old Shen's Q was boring? Sure, like many other abilities. Was it in need to be changed or reworked? No, Shen was fine. I don't think many of you ever even played old Shen to be honest if all you're going to say is "old Q was point and click XD" or "he didn't have any scalings"

@Balterein: yes, many people I knew stopped playing Shen after giving him a try (after the rework), and considering the whine there was on the boards at the time. Old Shen was capable of output a similar amount of damage if you knew what you were doing and carefully timed W with your passive. You know, Shen never made enormous amount of damage, he dealt damage by taking none. New Shen is just an experiment with a new, useless, unwanted and unsatisfying gimmick that nobody asked for. Oh, and he is totally melee now and with no sustain, so good luck against ranged poke or lane bullies. Shen was a neutral tank, you could pick him in almost any lane and try to do good during early-mid game.

To all the people that are saying new Shen is more "engaging" than the old one, is just because now it has a huge ass floating sword that follows him (???), but you literally do the same exact thing as before, but instead of pressing Q in lane now you press right-click because you're an auto attack reliant champion. You want to fight? Ok, press E-Q then W at the same time and hope your enemy doesn't dodge your taunt otherwise you are in front of him with your pants down.

Also the OP is not what I wrote but just a repost of some dude, there's thousands of similar threads and I will repost them weekly. A revert is very unlikely, but at least do something different and change this sword thing because it's ugly, it's clunky and most of all NOBODY EVER ASKED FOR SUCH A REWORK. And again, we old players all know how bad Riot hates Shen because of his ultimate, so I can safely assume he really was just an experiment. Well, too bad for all the people that loved Shen

Now, I played old shen, I loved it, it was stupidly strong, had amazing sustain and surprising damage. I play shen now, he's better. I don't care what you say, he's better now than he was. So what, he lost sustain? He didn't REALLY need it. So what he lost poke? Shen's got engage options, he doesn't NEED poke to work well.

Right now, shen is one of the best tanks at dueling because of his mixed damage, between straight up physical damage and his % max hp damage, he's a hard hitter throughout the game. Oh, and, his w helps a LOT against the following champions: Akali Darius DrMundo Ekko Garen Illaoi Hecarim Ivern Jhin Kindred Kled Maokai Nasus Nautilus Ornn Poppy Quinn Renekton Rengar Riven Shyvana Sion Skarner Sona Talon Trundle TwistedFate Udyr Urgot Vayne Vi Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Yorick

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

He's garbage now, everyone agrees. Both stats wise and theme wise

Thund3r Ang3l3 votes

Hence, the reason why they wont give him a skin, even 2 years after his rework. I assume they are going to rework him again.

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

This is actually interesting. I stopped playing the game after Shen got reworked for a long time... but are you sure he never got a skin after his rework? What was his last skin? TPA?

That is indeed good news <3

Thund3r Ang3l3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kiss Kiss Kiss,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GONi4yn0,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2018-02-27T23:07:41.586+0000)

This is actually interesting. I stopped playing the game after Shen got reworked for a long time... but are you sure he never got a skin after his rework? What was his last skin? TPA?

That is indeed good news <3

He never got one after his rework. His TPA skin came out 4 year and 10 months ago I think, however Riot said that World skin dosnt count so you have to take his Last NON world skin which is warlord. it got release april 2012. 5 years and 10 months.... almost 6 years?

This is terrible....

Cowgirl Ed4 votes

Thanks for the info brother, this made my hopes go up a little bit...

Any ways we can have a Rioter on this?

I mean, maybe it's just that they're busy with other champ skins as well, or they have one in the work already, but I think you're onto something when you say they are on hold waiting for a new rework I mean Ryze got something like 5 reworks? It wouldn't be the first time they rework a champion for another time.

Also, while you're at it, you seem more knowledgeable than me on this stuff: any other champs that hasn't had a skin for such a long period of time?

Ragnaveil2 votes

I doubt there are thousands of you that are unhappy about this change. His old kit was so one dimensional that all you had to do to harass a laner is press q from afar. Sounds familiar? Yep, the same linear shit as Pantheon, who is currently suffering from that one dimensional kit of his since riot is nerfing everything around him (recent change that single target spells draw aggro now, and the nerf of lethality patches ago) tl;dr, He was reworked for a reason, and they stand by it. (I've gotten a quad as new Shen being full tank, the old one hardly can come close to that unless people just didn't hit you at all.)

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

He was reworked for a reason, and they stand by it.

Hell they admitted the rework was a failure... anyway I typed a longer post in this discussion, check it out

Ragnaveil1 votes

What about the rework did they say was a failure? I don't recall hearing anything of the such. (Not sarcastic, im like dead serious no clue if they did or not)

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/oVTYesIv-meddler-the-shen-nerfs-really-need-to-stop?comment=0018

There were also other posts where they said the rework "didn't quite hit the mark" or something like that I mean he is getting looked at in the future, I just want to be sure I'll be able to play something that I can call Shen once again when that happens (which is: a sustain tank with global pressure).

Ragnaveil1 votes

Yeah, I reverted my downvote on the post, but if they were to look at giving him sustain back, why not keep both aspects of the Q, he does have two swords, so why not he does his old Q, and then the next 3 hits give him hp regen and some damage? I like the direction of the Q, but for sure the sword mechanic just kills.

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

The thing is, the sword mechanic was clearly some kind of experiment to lead the way for an Irelia rework I think (which is coming soon). It doesn't fit and feel rushed: in fact, it WAS rushed. I think Shen will be getting looked at soon, I say max time one year and a half. He does have two swords and he lost his Ki Strike and his idle pose, which both looked awesome. I'd be happy with anything as long as his sustain is back and the sword mechanic is changed or entirely removed

Look, there are really hundreds of thread made around that time of people saying "new rework is going to disappoint lot of people", explaining a lot of things.

And another thing which made me very upset was this. Read this post https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/aAtvjyfs-the-shen-rework-makes-me-sad There was ZERO communication. Literally, NOBODY wanted this rework to happen. Yes, he had an old kit, but nobody was "OMG he needs a rework!", do you get what I mean? An update, like Singed and Vladimir had? Yeah, sure, but not an entire ass rework. Some changes to his kit, minor stuff? Yeah why not, as long as he'd still be Shen.

But no, Riot always hated Shen. In fact, he had to be weak otherwise he'd dominate pro play with his ultimate. So they decided for some reasons you can come up by yourself that would have been a good idea to change his identity entirely: he does NOT play like old Shen, and they said "he'd still be Shen".

Bare in mind, Shen's not the only one. I think his rework is on the top of the list of failures alongside with Mordekaiser and poor Karma (I knew a lot of Karma mains who plain left the game)

Ragnaveil1 votes

I wouldn't mind if they brought back the old Q, im just saying it should do more than just damage and health regen.

Cowgirl Ed1 votes

I get on you that, but... why? What's wrong with having a simple skill? Not everything needs to have a gimmick, or have more than one effect, or be super complex.

Shen was a perfect example of a simple and effective champion. His skills were simple, but that didn't mean he wasn't in an OK spot.

I'd love to know why you think it's wrong to have just damage and health regen. His Q was mostly used for last hit (and harass + health regen at very early levels, later on most top laners could just ignore the harass if they had a brain and knew how to play against a Shen). Old Q was also good on dragon, so overall I wouldn't say it was a boring skill to be fair.

And to the people saying his old W didn't do anything... well I'd just ignore those because at this point they probably never played old Shen, lol

Kaioko2 votes

His old Q was awful -- a free poke with no mana cost on a tanky champion? No thanks.

oHammeRo1 votes

{quoted}

His old Q was awful -- a free poke with no mana cost on a tanky champion? No thanks.

And what about Vlad? His Q is almost the same as old Shen‘s Q. Why is it ok on him and not on Shen?

BeatzBoyFTW2 votes

Shen's nowhere near "ruined". His dueling potential is a lot stronger compared to old Shen & has better team utility with his new W.

Old Shen's Q was pretty braindead in laning phase where you're treating it like a mini Pantheon Q: Point & Click to poke or last-hit, Q's healing was unnoticeable af in mid-late game, and his W shield scaling is just goddamn pathetic since it has really low base strength & doesn't even scale with HP.

And A Real Hiero1 votes

They didn't do jack shit for his scaling. Health scaling on his E? Lol. His old passive scaled with health aswell and was imo a lot better than what it is now. I agree that his kit was outdated as fuck, but why on earth would you remove stats for making a champ melee only?

LyingOnLine2 votes

Old Shen was boring shit.

And A Real Hiero2 votes

I made a lengthy post about the Shen rework half a year ago, and a suggestion to what might be a good option for a change. Let me know if you guys like this.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/0tRAp9cA-shen-rework-reworked-feedback-welcome

Just a stat comparison I have laying around:

Old Shen stats Health 2016 at 18 HP5 17.7 at 18 Energy 200 at 18 Eregen 50 at 18 Attack Range 125 at 18 Attack Damage 117.5 at 18 Attack Speed 1.03 at 18 Armor 93.7 at 18 Magic Resist 53.4 at 18 Movement 335 at 18

Current Shen stats HEALTH 540 – 1985 HEALTH REGEN 8.5 – 21.3 ENERGY 400 ENERGY REGEN 50 MELEE 125 ATTACK DAMAGE 60 – 111 ATTACK SPEED [*] 0.651 (+ 15- 49%) ARMOR 34.0 – 85 MAGIC RES. 32.1 – 53.4 MOV. SPEED 340

Looking back he regained a bit of tankyness, but this is only after the runes reforged update which every champion got something out of.

Kudashuda2 votes

That'd be a dream. As far as game design is concerned, while Riot is capable of making great reworks, the outcome of Shen's rework is a rude example of when it turns out not so great.

Old Shen's mechanics were basic, but responsive and rewarding in terms of a good feeling within the gameplay flow, = fun. However, the rework introduced gimmicky mechanics intended for the champion to be more strategical, but they feel really clunky, having to micro-manage a spectral unit where W activates an avoidance zone, and the Q that doesn't feel good without attack speed. The new mechanics increases strategical depth, but at the cost of fun and how smooth the gameplay otherwise felt like. In a combat situation, utilizing an unsatisfying Q mechanic, in order to position a gimmick mechanic, in order to activate another unsatisfying W mechanic... As with where you combo Q and W, there's a bad delay with the travel time of the spectral sword mechanic, where the gameplay doesn't feel responsive at all, and if in vital moments that delay is the difference between dying or killing your opponent. Essentially you have to micro-manage a gimmick, that feels nothing more than a burden to the player. In comparison to the old Q and W abilities that responded instantly, and you feel you had control of your situation at all times.

You can make your gameplay as strategical and thoughtful as you want, but if in the end if they're not fun and the gameplay don't feel responsive, it's all for nought in terms of game design. Please Riot, swallow your pride and revert Shen, I've mained him since S2 and the rework broke my heart.

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

Very nice post, brother. Basic mechanics but still responsive and rewarding... very, very true. Kinda like Pantheon, Annie, simpler champions. And simple doesn't mean bad. Not every skill needs to have a fucking essay to explain what it does. I felt so good playing Shen and actually be a tank.

I've mained him since S2 and the rework broke my heart.

RIP. I feel you a lot. Thanks for the post. I'm pretty sure Riot is going to visit him in the future, so there's that.

And A Real Hiero1 votes

Shen basically is the reason I still play this game. While Riot manages to find new ways to nerf him without compensation, I still enjoy playing him. Ignore the fact he hasn't had a new skin in years. Ignore the fact that they cut a huge amount of stats away from a already squishy tank in the rework. Ignore the fact that his only damage got nerfed very fast. Ignore the fact that they pretty much removed the only buffed stat he gained from the rework. Ignore the fact that they were quick to gut the small compensation flat damage buff he got to his Q.

They buffed Voli after uselefying him after all these years. Maybe they will throw Shen a bone too. Edit: I don't think a full revert is what would fix Shen currently, maybe making his kit more thematically fitting as they once declared would help. At this point I'd take a cool skin too and be done with it.

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