Zoe’s E Duration Should Scale With Level.

Fedoran·Nov 29, 2017·39 votes·1,350 views

I honestly don’t know why it doesn’t already do this. Even Morgana Q scales with level.

For a late game scaling champion, the E duration lasting two seconds LEVEL 1 is really punishing and oppressive for being hit by a single skillshot, when you still have like 335 movespeed.

Why is if that if I throw out TF gold card right before I fall asleep she still has time to hit me with Q after the gold card stun expires (This is fine late game cause of itemization, team peel, etc)?

Please Riot make the duration scale for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds on her E so I don’t get chunked for half my health in lane because she can get a max range Q off.

Sidenote: forcing players to level E for reliability would help tone down early damage from maxing Q.

19 Comments

Velzard of KozNov 29, 20178 votes

I mean, suggestion good, but:

Why is if that if I throw out TF gold card right before I fall asleep she still has time to hit me with Q after the gold card stun expires

Because she hit a skillshot and you had actual time to even throw the card before being CC'd. Of course it will last longer than point-click stun that you cannot avoid when within attack range.

FedoranNov 29, 20171 votes

The idea is that with travel time of the card and travel/cast time of zoe q, the difference shouldn’t be that great at low levels becuase it gives very little counterplay.

And dodging is not something I can rely on doing all the time. Everyone gets hot by skillshots at some point.

Ahri BakaNov 30, 20173 votes

I'm afraid that I can't agree , Zoe is an E Q champion only , she needs this sleep more than anything else , her only Damage ability is Q , and her 2 seconds is to help her travelling with ult and throwing her Q as much as possible and coming back , having her E sleeping time scales with rank is a huge nerf for her and it would make her unplayable .

MyBradsAChadNov 30, 20172 votes

Oh, so we're fine with the new champ having the highest duration CC in the game at rank 1? Let's be real, the nerf bat is coming for Zoe and this is where it starts. The sleep is going to be scaled just like everyone else's CC ability. Also, the statement that Q is her only damaging ability? You're missing her passive, not to mention other spell/item shards that tie into W, but can concede that the W's mechanic is more random than can be relied on to provide damaging shards.

There is one thing I'd like to see them fix is in her overview, Phreak stated enemies couldn't see which minion had the balloon with the spell shard. Yeah, no. We can totally see which minion has the balloon. Having it hidden provides Zoe with a bit of a surprise attempt to trade, and with her kit (when the nerfs come) will be needed.

flibitydooNov 30, 20172 votes

I'm assuming it doesn't because it's sleep cc. Which is not the same as a stun.

The idea with sleep cc is it lasts much longer than normal cc, but has the issue of "if the target takes damage the cc is cancelled".

I don't think if you get slept by Zoe you are actually going to go through the full 2 second duration every single time. I reckon you'll get hit during the sleep and immediately have the opportunity to react.

Kitten of EvilNov 30, 20172 votes

I don't think if you get slept by Zoe you are actually going to go through the full 2 second duration every single time. I reckon you'll get hit during the sleep and immediately have the opportunity to react.

I think that's a bit of a cop-out. Once Zoe has been out for awhile, teams will know how to play around her. If she sleeps the enemy tank or juggernaut, they'll literally avoid hitting the tank/jugg at all. If she sleeps an enemy carry, they will focus all their damage or CC on the carry, using that juicy true damage proc to ensure she dies.

HibekiNov 30, 20172 votes

Jsut because she has a shitload of damage doesnt make her late game scaling.

I would not call a 300 damage Q level 1 "late game scaling"

parrot6632Nov 30, 20172 votes

she's not a lategame champion. she sucks in 5v5 deathmatch because she can't kill a carry unless they position really badly. Zoe does best early/mid while snowballing

AudiomancyNov 30, 20171 votes

Ah, right. Because Zoe has her ult at level 1 and can always land max-range Qs.

Gives No LuxNov 30, 20172 votes

Hmm, if only Riot put something in the game that reduced the effects of CC...

SalronNov 30, 20171 votes

1s is extremely short for a CC type that is cancelled on damage

SpecterVonBarenNov 30, 20171 votes

I think it's because if the CC'd person gets hit then the cc ends so it can't be abused like a Morgana Q will where you're stuck taking damage for 2 seconds. Keep in mind also that Zoe has no reliable means of escaping people, her mobility is either tied to random summoner drops, her enemy using a movement summoner, or just sends her back where she was.

Her E is her only means of escaping a gank or an assassin.

Hydra HeadhunterNov 30, 20171 votes

But it's not supposed to be that way. Riot has said that it's supposed to be more powerful offensively and it isn't meant to function as a defensive spell.

SpecterVonBarenNov 30, 20171 votes

Then what realistic means does Zoe have of surviving against people then?

Hydra HeadhunterNov 30, 20171 votes

I do agree that her E is the problematic part of her kit balance wise, but I don't think its the duration itself that's causing the problem. I think it's a lack of counterplay.

The bubble travels really fast for a skill shot, making it hard to dodge even at its max range (which is sometimes effectively point blank via ult), and then there's no way to avoid falling asleep once it hits you.

I think the best thing to change in order to balance it would be the drowsy timer (decreasing with level), with the addition of some method to counteract the effect. There's no real point in the separate states of drowsy and asleep if the only thing that can be done during it is wait to fall asleep. The E is like God Lee Sin in that there's not enough counterplay.

So, with counterplay in mind, I propose the following changes for whichever patch zoe's inevitable nerf comes in:

Great big yaaaawn: The drowsy status effect now lasts longer before the target falls asleep, lasting 3/2.5/2/1.5/1 seconds (give time for the other changes to matter, plus adds a lot of scaling power in a decreasing reaction window).

No need to nap: A champion can wake themselves up by landing any of their abilities or summoner spells on an ally or enemy champion (this allows counter play by letting champions avoid the damage but likely forces the person hit by the skill shot to use their abilities sub-optimally).

A slap to the face is better than coffee: With the exception of auto attacks, any damage that would wake a sleeping champion will remove the drowsy status effect. (this forces zoe players and teammates to refrain from hitting the target until they fall asleep for that damage increase)

Wake Up Sleepy-head: An ally champion can 'tap' a sleeping ally to wake them up early. The ally remains stunned for the duration but the extra damage is prevented (doesn't reduce the power of the effect in lane, but does decrease the devastation of power in team fights, except for zoe supp/adc (because I've seen both)).

Dreamtown Speed Limit: The travel speed of dream bubble has been modestly reduced. (I can't dodge this fr*cking skill shot like at all: I have to hope the Zoe misses, which isn't the best strategy).

Hydra HeadhunterNov 30, 20171 votes

I think implementing any three or four of these would bring the E's power level back in line with the rest of her kit and result in a more balanced champion.

parrot6632Nov 30, 20171 votes

2 3 4 would make sleep absolutely useless as an ability

Hydra HeadhunterNov 30, 20171 votes

No, no they wouldn't.

2 would make it less powerful against champs with short cooldowns, but more powerful against champs with mostly self-buff abilities (Things like Susan's q wouldn't work since the auto is the thing actually landing). Zoe would be forced to play cleverly to avoid hits and it would reduce its effectiveness as an escape tool: which Riot has stated, it's not meant to be. Two would also encourage interplay between a chasing Zoe and the chase target, as to stave off sleep you'd likely have to turn and hit her at least once, forcing the gap closed.

3 would mean that Zoe players would have balance when they paddlestar a drowsy target timing so it hits the target while they sleep. She'd still be allowed to get her passive bonus damage without dispelling the drowsy. It would make it less useful in ganking situations but a good jungler would understand to wait for the sleep to hit before going in.

4 would make it less powerful in team fights, and laning with a partner (because Zoe support shouldn't be a thing), but it would still be a 2 second stun and would force opponents to weigh extra cc downtime against the extra damage.

All three of these points exist to incentivize putting points in E, since they build off of 1 which scales. The increasing shorter drowsy window makes the power shift into the late game, while the countermeasures and longer starting drowsy window allow the opponent leverage and make it harder (not impossible) to get the chance to go all in for a kill and then snowball. All I see these doing is bringing E back into line with the rest of the power curve, because as it stands it's way too strong.

Maybe, 3/2.5/2/1.5/1 is too harsh; and something like 2.5/2/1.6/1.3/1 would be more sensible; but, there needs to be some way to remove drowsiness built into the ability. I don't know, I don't playtest these things.

I am however reasonable and good at identifying problems. Right now the distinction between drowsy and asleep only helps Zoe as it gives her time to position a Q for max damage and gives no incentive to the drowsy player to attack, since their only option is to all in or run, but their not given enough time to all in, so their only option is to run.

They would make the ability less powerful. They would not make it useless.

parrot6632Nov 30, 20171 votes

jesus christ its meant to be a cc that lets zoe murder you with LITTLE (not no) counterplay after getting hit by it. the hitbox is very forgiving rn but its getting looked at making it easier to dodge. Its meant to punish you for getting hit with the skillshot not be a mildly inconvenient slow

the counterplay is to buy qss, take cleanse, buy zhonyas, get MS or get MR. No counterplay is a terrible thing but when you have too much counterplay you have a darius situation where he relies heavily on you not knowing how to play against him and is useless against good players