I wish there was a way to get decent spellvamp in this game for ordinary mages outside of one Rune

WeAreTheRatClan··8 votes·3,744 views

Because having to rely on getting KP on the enemy team is a pretty shitty route to go if you want to unlock basic sustain. And last I checked it wasn't very viable to go item 3146 on shit like Velkoz Xerath Karthus And then we have item 3010 which is an absolute joke of an effect that "restores" on average 5 HP per spell-cast with only things like full-on ultimates or outdated and overpriced spells restoring the maximum 25.

And to make players like us feel even shittier item 1055 item 3153 >>>>>Omniitem 3812Vamp<<<<<item 2140 item 3156 item 3139 item 3080 you get to see how AD champs get all kinds of options if they want to sustain themselves, even multiple Runes all granting on-hit healing. But if you want to have even the slimmest chance at having some sort of sustain while playing as a mage you have no other choice but to get Ravenous-Hunter and get at the very least 4 out of 5 of the enemy champs in your KP to unlock decent healing.

That doesn't seem fair at all, especially when the only argument I've ever seen for denying mages spell-vamp is because "Vladimir will abuse it!" Because that's fine, limit and fuck over an entire class because one balance abomination synergizes too well with an effect.

29 Comments

Subject 58 votes

AP < AD

AD Champions are superior in most ways. Pretty sure that the only category AP wins is the ability to apply utility and crowd control. I WOULD say burst, but in all honesty, I believe that hybrid and AD based champions do more burst damage than burst mages. I guess the idea is that burst mages sometimes come with a utility but . . .

I mean let's be honest here, damage has been so far stuffed down our throats that you can practically see the crowning bulge of shit that is the balancing decisions coming out of our assholes. Damage is all that really matters when you can just blow somebody up before they can use anything.

Bobloser35553 votes

its just different APs are not suppose to be sustain champs unless they have it built in

WeAreTheRatClan9 votes

How is that fair? At all? That Mages get denied something so basic and prevalent while literally every other class in the game get to have multiple itemization and rune customizations for healing while the Mages are stuck with being forced into the exact same Rune setup with 0 deviation?

Unless you can find me a quote where Riot themselves say that "Mages are not allowed to sustain" then you're full of shit.

Bobloser35552 votes

Mages are supposed to recall, also because of mana, it's just a different play style because it is a different Class. They have other strenghts.

WeAreTheRatClan4 votes

Oh yeah, being waveclear bots, such a magical skill that nobody else could possible match.

Too bad recalling is a deathsentence for your tower because they're such useless toilet paper rolls, so glad we have to wait till pre-season to see a change there... until Riot's dumbass balance team nerfs it again for "being too slow."

Bobloser35552 votes

if every champion class can do everything the diversity of the game is dying...there is a reason why mr items have less mr than armor and why the items have different strengths and weakness for each class.

Nyarlathοtep3 votes

My guess is because ap items give hp. Sucks A LOT. ADs on general have more interesting stuff than ap ones will ever get.

Shablagoo2 votes

Because mages arent built to be sustain champions unless that is there kit. Vlad is actually broken if played right the sustain from his kit is boonkers, akali is fine now but she was boonkers too, Kat with gunblade is cancer. Having burst along with lifesteal isnt fun or fair to play against, giving mages it for free isnt even reasonable either.

WeAreTheRatClan2 votes

But Bruisers, Tanks, ADCs and even Assassins are all fine with having it, it's balanced for everyone else in the game to have a way to heal themselves while dealing nut-crunching damage, but MAGES are the problem children that would be broken with actual sustain options outside of Ravenous Hunter...

I find that to be a load of haphazardly thought up horseshit.

Shablagoo1 votes

Assassins dont build lifesteal and if they do they are fed so it doesnt matter regardless. Most brusiers need lifesteal because they actually have no form of escape and they are actually in the thick of fights, so they can take dmg. Adc, are actually what mages would be like if mages had spellvamp. Long range, burst while being able to take dmg and kite back while healing. It isnt fair lol, add vlad being the example of what most mages would be like, and it shows that burst and lifesteal isnt fair to play against. No tank builds lifesteal.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Then alter vlad so he cannot benefit from outside healing sources, and adjust his natural healing to compensate. But common sense isn't something riot likes to use.

Their excuse when they deleted the will of the ancients item was along the line of 'burst healing is deceptively durable and frustrating to fight'. Which shows their double standards because lifesteal is amplified by critical hits.

Shablagoo1 votes

So alter one champion so everyone can have spell vamp like him? Why should mages be able to sustain themselves, they are mostly burst and the dps ones mostly have heals. Swain with more spellvamp isnt going to be fair, especially with they items that they have. I dont get why mages think that they are comparable to ad champions they arent they are so different. Yes and early game adc's suffer by having to have a person protect them. I dont see why we should add more long range healers, just because you are jealous of adc's?

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Most are burst? About 1/3 of mages are assassins, and the they've all lost late game damage since the class reworks. Swain's spellvamp is rather conditional, play him and see what I mean. Mages used to be another team carry for years, but what do you see more often these days? All AD teams, they've been easily replacable, why do you think some mages have started showing up top lane when they used to be primarily middle? They can't compete with the assassins anymore. Marksmen have been catered to since season two; and the month they got nerfed (spawning the adc2017 meme), riot more than reverted that change because such players were whining harder than a moonshine distillery. Mages only had two items for sustain, and as I said the better of the two was deleted years ago, however marksmen have gained a couple lifesteal items; mages' damage scales geometrically but marksmen scale multiplicity, see what I'm getting at?

Tell me, why should one class get multiple means to cover their weakness, when every other class gets gutted for finding such options?

Shablagoo1 votes

I love the new swain I played him regularly, but how would adding more spell vamp help him? Wouldnt it possibly make him to powerful with more spellvamp. And I dont believe mages are being pushed out, they still dominated mid, thats why some of the best mid laners are mages rn, TF has been tier 1 for so many patches, aur was too till he got nerfs. Then there is the staple mage ahri which literally is the best in every stage of the game. Mages have a top tier in almost every lane except of adc, we have tali jg, now there is vik top. I dont see how mages can still say they are weak when have mages ever really suffered? That small span of patches when assassins dominated mid lane, there was still a risk though beceause they could massively fall off, most mages don't fall off in fact they do well in all stages of the game. Assassins no longer outshine mages that was a small span of patches again can you not lie to make a point?

Why do you even compare the two, thats like me saying as a assassins player we want some cc that hits multiple players because some mages have it, it doesn't make sense to have just because others do.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Considering he's immobile and short ranged outside of his W, some spell-vamp would be nice for facing the front-line and poke; everything in his kit is AOE so he'd already get reduced healing from it anyway (read gunblade & death's dance for example). Twisted fate has often been played as a pseudo-assassin thanks to his ultimate and on command stun; similar with ahri having game play patterns closer to leblanc than velkoz.
Top tier? Mind showing me what you mean for posterity? Because I still see some assassins being commonplace for the past few seasons. Taliyah and victor are abuse cases because they can't function in middle as safely anymore; think about it, who's easier to kite, a wukong who has to use his only mobility to reach you, or a zed who can retaliate without putting himself in predictable danger? Remember the class reworks? Mage items across the board took a hit, loosing sustainability and/or power; the remaining mages who continue to show up have innate power that's abusable with the reworked masteries. Thing is the games are so short assassins never have time to fall off, nor do mages have time to scale up.
Why compare? Because before the screw up of season four and even larger fumble of seasons 6~8, mages, marksmen, and assassins could individually carry. But riot has since then done away with it, turning everyone into assassins by inflating damage where it didn't need to be. Just look at the patch notes, maokai (a classic tank) and pyke (mobile support) got buffed with more damage.

Shablagoo1 votes

Just becuase they have mobility doesnt mean they are assassins. Roaming isnt exclusively an assassin thing, anyone can roam, it just that some can do it faster. Also the fact that two mages out of the entire mage roaster or not longer mid is great because it is better that they can play more then one role and be good. Tali was to strong mid perma pushing in with no consequence. And Vik just does what most ranged ap champions do crush melee top laners. Mages just cry because assassins invalidate there inherent advantage with mobility then cry that it isnt fair. Is it fair that melee with no real dashes have to deal with range? You just have to play around it. Also just because assassins are top tier doesnt mean that mages cant be, hence why even though kass is top tier TF is too.

Again none of this really matters, because this does not warrant giving mages spell-vamp. Its funny how you ignore my example because it is true. You dont just give free things just because a class is jealous another one has it. I think many assassins/ brusiers players feel jealous of the fact that lux gets to snipe them from almost have across the map. Should we give them long range nukes too? How about a Ziggs ult too? See what I mean jealously doesnt equal unfairness nor does it actually warrant any action at all.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Given the excessive damage riot has added in the past few years, they basically function as assassins; take jarvin for example, used to be an off-tank since he had good engage and CC, but since the lethality changes he's better off going full damage and nuking the backline. Marksmen also cry foul when they can't survive assassins, yet who does riot come to the aid of? Mages are taking another round of nerfs in the coming preseason. Kassadin is more of an assassin than a mage you know.

Kind of ironic since you also continue to ignore the shifting game design philosophy, that has been dragging the game down for years.

Shablagoo1 votes

But burst again is not a function of just assassins? Burst mages? Have you never been hit by lux's combo, veigar either? Man you just hate assassins and thats cool but dont ignore the fact that it isnt assassins breaking the game its the runes. And some champions are plain broken, your seriously going to say Zed is more broken then Irelia ? Or Jax . Ya everyone was going lethality even MF, no and of course adc cry they always do. Yet Lucian, MF, and Kai are some of the most broken champions. Before lethality got majorly nerfed the most abusing champions where mostly the adc's Jihn, MF, and Varus.

Which mages are being nerfed? Tal because she is way to good of a jungler? Wonder why or wait its because she is the most op jungler in the game, literally a clear speed of the old graves. But lets ignore her becaue you know fuck assassins right? Liss is getting a new passive and they dont want her to be crazy. No mages are getting nerfed your just pulling shit out of your ass man. You also going to ignore the abomination called zoe? She is a mage and one of the most unbalanced things in the game. Then there is Jax and Irelia for bruisers completely busted, Lucian and Kai as well as MF for adc's. Ali as support getting a three point click cc abilitys which is fking insane. But you know fk assassins right? Kassadin has always been an assassin.

Shifting game philosophy of change? Thats literally how they survive, if this game was the same every season I wouldnt be coming back to this. It would be shit, what annoys me the most is the completely conservative mindset of everyone. Saying remember s4 best season, cool man great but why havent you stop playing then? If its dragging the game down why are you still playing? Should they revert everything back to s4? Honestly just dont play the game nor go on the forums the game doesnt need you anyway.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Again not every mage is not a burst mage, just as every assassin doesn't have invisibility, or every marksmen rely on critical hits.

Given the game has been decided by the first 5 minutes for the past few years, I'm tired of every class acting like an assassin, not just the assassin class; damage has been increasing far more than it should have in riot's attempt to speed up the game, including adding more gold available, leading to snowballing. Damage dealing champions snowball fastest, which is why only assassins, burst mages, and critical marksmen are viable; unless someone is doing cheese odds are they won't succeed in this instakill meta. Don't believe me, look at some of the most popular threads here, several complaining how 1-sided games are or how little agency you get to play with before being blown up from full health. It's a core game design failure, that they continue to handwave spitefully.

Any AP, or mana loss is nerfing all mages. Gotta remember not all buffs/nerfs are direct, some are through items, masteries, or interactions.

Survive? The game has been going downhill since season five, it's popularity and replay-ability have significantly dropped since then. Their obsessive favoritism over their precious esports have accelerated the nosedive noticeably.

Shablagoo1 votes

And when did I ever say that all mages are burst mages? Can you read man, I said that burst is not exclusively just for assassins, other classes have burst and are not assassins. Burst is just one thing they possess, hence why you objection to burst needs to target not just assassins but other mages too, for example TF and Tali. You are presenting your point like assassins are exclusively the class benefitting from the high burst in the game which is a lie.

And again you show a unreasonable bias, increased dmg was not exclusive benefit to only assassins, and they didnt benefit the most. Are you going to pretend that Irelia, Jax, mages, and adcs didnt benefit from the dmg increase. Early game adc? MF and Lucian two champions that dont even build crit till main items dominating? Yes at one point assassins had huge dmg, and they got all the things that made them do it nerfed. Electro, sudden impact, and duskblade. Really because just last season people on this same forum were complaining about not being able to solo carry, now they give them the ability to and then ppl complain. This forum complains about everything, literally the next patch they are giving ppl more chances to comeback, even though solo gold from a shut down should be enough to give you a comeback if you are good. Also there are threads still complaining about zed so I dont take the forums serious, they would rather complain about zed in his current state which is balanced then Jax which literally has sustain dmg, burst, and defense. But you know zed kills them in mid lane so he is unbalanced.

Dude do you realize what you said yourself? You said mages are getting more nerfs in the coming preseason? Which mana nerfs are there on the pbe currently, mages are getting the ability to use dark harvets now, they can use electro now too. You literally are just making things up, they changed mana many patches ago man and that was because mana should be something that limits your use of spells.

Really because its still the most popular game to date, and has been since s5 which was 2015, till this date its still one of the most popular games to date. Since 2009 and this game is still in the top 3 to 5. It isnt the best because it isnt number 1? Thats a joke man, you just dont like it anymore so you think it isnt popular? Also this has nothing to do with burst in the game, you now why because you and me are still playing. So are the people in the forums if they werent they wouldnt complain. So that point isnt even valid.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

{quoted}

Because mages arent built to be sustain champions unless that is there kit. Vlad is actually broken if played right the sustain from his kit is boonkers, akali is fine now but she was boonkers too, Kat with gunblade is cancer. Having burst along with lifesteal isnt fun or fair to play against, giving mages it for free isnt even reasonable either.

Your initial statement sounds pretty cut and dry what you think of mages. Forget which conversation you were having?

Unreasonable bias because riot has unreasonable standards; they used to balance around fair fun. However ever since their esports project took off, they've focused on becoming as 'flashy & exciting' looking as possible, dumping actual game quality in the garbage. For example just look at the client, any veteran can tell you the older client was more stable than the one we have now. Beta players had also posted long winded but accurate arguments for keeping the old client, but riot forced this unstable lackluster junk in our face, and are sluggish to fix even basic problems when they know what the cause is. If they can't even respect players for using their product's menus, do you honestly expect them to program the game in a way to keep people enjoying it?

Most champions can use dark harvest and electrocute as it is now anyway, so your point is moot. If anything dark harvest change is going to exacerbate the damage problem more. And you're partially right, mana should be limiting; but look at modernly made & reworked champions, do they play like they're limited? No, not remotely when compared to older untouched champions. Discounting the obviously manaless champions of course.

Still? To laugh at how absurd some things interact, sure; but to watch or play? Hardly.

Shablagoo1 votes

But you made a point to say that assassins are the only ones benefiting from burst? But that isnt true, Lux, TF, Ahri, and Vlad all can and do burst dmg. They also benefit from this, What I dont understand is why you think that giving mages spellvamp options helps the dmg issue you have with the game. These items will give dmg, and they will give lifesteal. You want to nerf balanced champions like vlad, champions being balanced like akali, and cancer but balanced champions like kat, all so that a few more mages get get lifesteal. How is that reasonable, in anyway? Also I haven you turned it into this you say that anything that burst is functions as an assassin but that isnt true I pointed it out and now you want to get back to the topic. And again the point still stands, you talk about how unbalanced the game is yet you want to add another issue to the game. With the track record of items riot introduces to the game you still want them to make another balance issue. Do you not see the flaw in that logic?

As for the client I personally dont have issues with it, maybe its my comp or I am just lucky but I cant talk on that issue. I havent had problems with it.

How many mages can use dark harvest as it is now and be viable? With this new change it is usable on all mages, it now works in lanes, you also dont need to auto you can use it on spells too. I personally dont think you know how the current DH works now. Electro, was only viable on mages till it got changed so I dont quite see how its moot. Again adding another ap item that adds more dmg and gives spellvamp also isnt helping with the dmg problem so doesnt that make your point moot rather? Can you give examples of this, how new mana champions that are reworked dont suffer mana consequences older champions do? Which ones are you talking about, do they even build the same way the other ones do. I cant even discuss this point further because its so random.

Here is the thing you talk about lowering dmg but when mages get hit in dmg you cry, yet they are doing the thing you ask for lowering dmg? Oh I get it, they can only nerf the specific champions you consider haivng to much dmg. And if they nerf mages in anyway, it is "making the game go down hill"? The game only goes down hill when you dont enjoy it right. I literally know that I was saying the same thing with the ardent meta because assassins became useless, but in reality it was just me being mad because my champion wasnt meta. Understand man you are in the same position i was, I know because I recognize it. I am not going to say that Kassadin isnt unbalanced, the same way the ardent meta was unbalanced. But understand that it doesnt mean the game is going downhill but more you jsut dont enjoy it because its change not to your liking.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Assassins tend to benefit the most having either range and/or mobility to gib someone by suddenly, but I didn't intend to say it's just them as some mages marksmen and fighters also do so. Given riot's only been adding to snowball, about anyone can start instakilling each-other regardless of their designed kit.
For example riot has said vlad is supposed to be a battle mage, a spell caster that excels in longer fights by wearing down the opposition through sustain; but that's not happening, being a couple items ahead either makes him unkillable or a walking death zone, but when he's a couple items behind he's nothing but a neon red dead weight. Lowering damage and raising sustain would level out the extremes here.

And when I say lower damage I don't mean just a few champions; I'm referring to all champions (either lowered base values or ratios, not both), several proved problematic items and masteries.

Akali is less balanced than before her rework lol. How is it reasonable? I already laid it out flat; reduce spell-vamp for any & all DOTs & AOEs, which the Will of Ancients already had by the way. If that proves to be not enough; either raise champion cooldowns or reduce available cooldown reduction, or make mana costs mean something again. Look at the previous couple season marksmen and some physical fighters could just drain through multiple opponents and win thanks to lifesteal's multiple applications, but unlike mages they are not limited by mana or cooldowns. Auto-attacks are unavoidable and ignore range once fired (except kalista as her's requires sight), lifesteal is amplifies by attack speed, damage, critical hits; and in the case of death's dance, also apply to extra physical damage sources either by abilities or active item uses. Tell me again how fair is it to have an enemy; who has unavoidable attacks, massive damage output, and either mobility or crowd control to keep safe, to solo win fights against multiple enemies by tanking when they're supposed to be a squishy? Willful ignorance is just as flawed, but because riot has repeatedly shown favoritism to them, you think that makes it okay?

Perhaps it's a background conflicting interaction with windows 10, never liked how it's just a 'fixed' version of 8 anyway.

Dark harvest has again become a staple pick in aram if that tells anything. Similar to how electrocute and thunder-lords was before it, though more universal to a surprising degree of what'll proc it. Seriously tried it on a hand of oddball champions and items, and it's weird to get burst damage out of nowhere; stuff like amumu's despair, the aura of sunfire cape, using the blade of the ruined king, ext.

Don't see so let me explain, it's an opportunity cost, as you have limited item slots (less to work with in these shorter games); as the Will of Ancients only had 80AP and 10% cdr, it's passive was heal for 15% of magic damage dealt but only 5% for AOE & DOT abilities. Compare that to luden's echo, granting 90AP, 20% cdr, and +600 mana, and it's passive is occasionally turning an ability into an AOE.

Sure I can give examples, and didn't mean to surprise you with it, thought it was expected since it's more of a core design to mages than any other class, or should be anyway. Let's look at anivia & malzahar, as she has been largely unaltered for years and he has been reworked a couple years ago during the class sweeps, though for sake of argument I'll only list their initial and final numbers (levels/ranks), but forgoing modifiers such as manaflow band or items to keep things simple. Aniva has a base mana pool of 495, which goes up to 920 at max level, and mana regeneration from 8 to 21.5 (measured by 5 second intervals as riot standard). Her flash frost Q stun has a starting mana cost of 80 with a 10 second cooldown, and ends up as a 120 mana cost on a 8 second cooldown. Malzahar's rework at launch (patch 6.9) has a mana pool of 375 scaling up to 843, and identical mana regeneration. His call of the void Q silence (which I'd argue is comparably debilitating to be hit with) only had a mana cost of 60 on a 6 second cooldown, both unchanging with rank. Sure Malzahar's got a smaller mana pool to match his cost, but having similarly (high/low, unsure how to word that lol) mana regeneration, at max level and rank that means he can recast his Q from empty within 15 seconds; where as Anivia has to wait 30 seconds.

Again look up a couple paragraphs earlier, I'm referring to a game-wide damage nerf; but riot has been playing favorites for years. I frankly don't care what the meta is because I still play half the champion roster, sure I have go-tos like everyone else, but I remain flexible. I said the game's going downhill because has been too focused on making the game fun to watch by sacrificing what made it fun to play; the game started out as a team based RTS, but has devolved into a third person CoD simulator, see what I mean?

Deneviel1 votes

... Yesterday i just played 2 times vs a Viktor who could spam his Q ( 40%CD capped bf lvl 13 with item 3025 in the build ) and autosustain himself with 3 ppl on him ( DrMundo ,Gragas ,Thresh ), while they do not excell in dmg seeing him healing over 3 ppl dmg and shielding himslef every 2 sec was simply stupid. With an E on minion wave he could go from 10% Hp to almost half HP bar.

Also SV is seriosly problematic for champ like Vladimir and Akali

WeAreTheRatClan6 votes

So nerf them? Why is that such a foreign concept to people whenever a suggestion is brought up?

"Oh but X champion would be too strong with Y in the game!" So nerf them? Duh? Again why fuck over entire classes just because of two horribly "balanced" characters?

Deneviel1 votes

{quoted}

So nerf them? Why is that such a foreign concept to people whenever a suggestion is brought up?

"Oh but X champion would be too strong with Y in the game!" So nerf them? Duh? Again why fuck over entire classes just because of two horribly "balanced" characters?

Looking at the state of the game and the times it take for RIOT to take some action do you really think it's better to trow in an hard to balance mech?

SV has always been problematic and now more than ever the game it's in an horrible state.

I can already hardly stand a Leblanc missing 3 out of 4 spells and killing me from 90% HP with only R ( re-casting W ), summoner 14 and 2 auto ( happened this morning ). Now immagine if she could also heal over dmg ....... plz

THe problem is not sustain but dmg .... give defensive stat some actual value and you won't need SV to survive a single poke cause a sin chunked 3/4 of you HP bar with 1 skill

WeAreTheRatClan5 votes

She already does? Most Leblancs get a item 3146 ?

And Riot is never going to tune down damage, so stop with that bullshit line of thought and stop being part of the problem that makes mage players feel like such pieces of useless shit throughout the entire game because of Riot's shit decisions.

Tr4shB4NSYST3M1 votes

item 3146 is omni-vamp, which is why its popular on hybrid champs, item 3812 is physical vamp

Timely Voidling2 votes

It's still vamp that applys to spells too isn't? So long as it's AD it'll heal you, which is kind of dumb considering it also give that damage reduction effect that I would kill for to have on so much as a single AP champ.

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