Every game someone picks him, he does poorly. I started playing him again as well and he is not the champ I remember. I've even been watching some pros play Yasuo and they get dunked on more than they win.
I'm sure there are players out there who do well with him but this champion seems a bit off. Does Riot have future plans for Yasuo? Or are they gonna leave him in this funky state?
TehNACHO14 votesI blame the boards and the forums.
Yasuo is not strong; he hasn't been for a while now, but because every Mage and ADC main bitched and moaned about it, Yasuo received nerf after nerf, some of them justified, others retarded.
What really gets me though is that all his nerfs tended to be aimed at what defines Yasuo as the utility Melee Carry. His knock ups have been tapped (Patch 4.2, Patch 4.13), his movement speed was hit (Patch 4.18), and his flow shield has been repeatedly nerfed (Patch 4.2, 4.3, 4.13). These are literally some of the biggest reasons why you'd want to pick Yasuo, come on!
Abyssphere12 votesI blame the boards and the forums.
Yasuo is not strong; he hasn't been for a while now, but because every Mage and ADC main bitched and moaned about it, Yasuo received nerf after nerf, some of them justified, others retarded.
What really gets me though is that all his nerfs tended to be aimed at what defines Yasuo as the utility Melee Carry. His knock ups have been tapped (Patch 4.2, Patch 4.13), his movement speed was hit (Patch 4.18), and his flow shield has been repeatedly nerfed (Patch 4.2, 4.3, 4.13). These are literally some of the biggest reasons why you'd want to pick Yasuo, come on!
That's what happens when they decide "double crit chance" is the most exciting and worth keeping part of his kit.
googlemaster6 votesits not like yasuo has any real steroids in his kit(it doesnt even do anything vs carries until late game). or that trynd gets 35% for free, or yi has an invul, protectile popping gap closer. both of which have tons of steroids in their kit.
i mean honestly wtf would you even think yasuo could do without the double crit chance. W does no dmg, E does no dmg, is short, and needs minions to even be better than trynds or yis, and his Q adds 100 dmg to his auto attack. ide say his ult at least adds some power but since its only bonus armor and dimishing returns is a bitch it doesnt even shred tanks well compared to wu and j4 who each shred total %.
Hawkefire7 votesSimple, after getting rid of the double crit, you compensate other parts of the kit appropriately. There are plenty of other aspects that Yasuo has that can be buffed if his crit was removed.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesSo, basically, instead of just keeping the "Double crit chance, reduce damage dealt" mechanic, calculate just how much bonus he gets from that and give it back to him in direct steroids.
I've done the math and compared Yasuo to Yi and Tryndamere; he has lower average DPS, even factoring in his Q in between attacks, than either of those simpler melee champions. The only reason that the double crit chance feels stronger is because of the mid-game spike he gets from it. At level 6 with 1 completed item, Yasuo has a higher spike in DPS than other carries, but he actually scales worse than the majority of them.
And the real problem behind it all is the rather outdated Crit system, which Riot has admitted they want to rework.
Knight SoIaire 1 voteswell thats true
but the thing is how that crit controlls yasuo
if you buff his q then you risk allowing him into the tank realm where he gets some ad and builds tanky
if you buff his e in any way you risk making him another kalista (shreds anything that cant match his mobility, and gets shredded by anyone who has a way of dealing with it)
buffing the ult is volatile since this skill is very unpredictable
ofc buffing the shield also would cause him going into the tanky realm
while double crit is not the core of his identity, i think that iits the only thing that still keeps this identity alive, if yasuo is not forced into adc build then he might pop up as something weird and unpredictable, like a tank who spamms knockups and provides utility with windwall, or a simple fighter
Troy2426212 votesHaving a cheeselord melee adc who has mobility, defense, burst, quick build paths, snowballs hardcore and has tenacity-ignoring AoE hard CC is a pretty tough sell to be a healthy design. I think they should'v focused on ONE aspect rather than water them all down.
Knight SoIaire 1 votesthey wanted a viable meele adc
and thats why he is so loaded, because most of interactions he gets fawours rranged champs, so riot gave him tools to deal with it
Eedat1 votesSo much this
Eedat9 votesThe same thing that happened to Elise, Evelynn, Azir, Kalista, Gragas, Zac, Lulu, Syndra, Kha'Zix, Jax, Shen, Alistar, and Fizz
Community- "RADA RADA THESE CHAMPS ARE BROKEN OP RADA RADA"
Riot- "we understand your concern, but we feel these champs are fairly balanced"
Community- "WOW! RIOT IS SUCH A GARBAGE COMPANY! NERFS! NERFS! NERFS! NERFS!"
Riot- "well ok.... we'll just give them a little tweek and..."
Community- "MORE NERFS! MORE NERFS! MORE NERFS! TOXIC AS F**K CHAMPION SHOULD BE GUTTED! NERFS! NERFS!"
Riot- "ok, we'll give them another batch of nerfs..."
Community- "NOT ENOUGH NERFS! I EVEN SAW HIM PLAYED ONCE IN THE LCS SINCE LAST NERF! NERF! NERF! NERF!"
Riot- "ok FINE. That should make them completely unplayable. Happy now?"
Community- "WOW RITO WHERES THE JUNGLE DIVERSITY YOU PROMISED?!?!?!?"
Riot- "......."
JustMyBassCannon4 votesToo. Damn. True.
And then they bitch about Lee Sin, Riot nerfs him a bit for the 15th time, it doesn't put him out of commission, community's not satisfied, Riot doesn't budge because they'd rather keep the most complex jungler alive and competitive so that high-tier play isn't completely boring and stale...
Never mind his win rate has never broken 50%, and his pick/ban rate has rarely totaled in the 60% range.
Anidan3 votesI like how winrate doesn't matter for some champions, but does for others. Sometimes, it even has the same back and forth for the same champion, like Lee Sin, for instance.
I can't tell if people genuinely don't know what pushes Lee over the top, or if there's actually multiple problems, but I feel the community needs to get it sorted out. It's hard to take communication seriously when there's constantly 15 different sources of "what's wrong" from one person to another. "It's his ult!" "No, it's the % damage on his Q!" "No, it's the sustain on his W!" "No, it's the ward-hopping on his W!" "No, it's his ridiculous scaling!" "No, it's..." Seriously. Looking at this makes it really difficult for even people discussing balance to hold proper discourse when their view of the problem is different than yours when it pertains to the same entity. How do you even properly approach that? How would Riot even begin to approach a discussion about him when there's so many differing views? Are they gonna say something like "well, we felt his ult's base/scaling was a little high, so we touched on that" and then everyone's okay? Or are a small subsection of the Lee nerf-wagon going to mention they touched on the wrong problem?
Eedat4 votesI'll post this again for you
Lee Sin is barely a middle of the pack jungler currently.
Lee Sin hasn't been the best option since the season 5 jungle rolled around. Lee Sin's win rate has plummeted to a steady 46%. And no, its not "because he has a high skill cap so low ELO players ruin his win rate". His win rate floats right around 46% all the way through Diamond. Here's his problem. He has a small window in the early game where he is strong before his high base damages start to fall off in the mid game. If he isn't successful in using this window, he falls off hard. He becomes a glorified damage sponge in the late game with an occasional #LC$BIGPLAYZ kick that gets himself killed almost everytime anyway. Other champions have the same window in the early game, but are much more useful in the mid to late game.
There are many junglers that do the job of disrupting the back line way better than him I.E. Vi, Jarvan, WW, Fiddle, Sej etc. All of these junglers also have a better clear than him which is very important because the season 5 jungle is much tougher and repeated nerfs to machete in both price and stats have really taken a toll on a lot of junglers. A lot of junglers that are doing so well right now are only popular again because they can actually survive the jungle effectively. Jarvan had his bonus armor and decent clear (his winrate has dropped below 50% since the removal of his bonus armor by the way). Vi has a great clear and her passive shield. WW can keep himself topped off without potions. Fiddle never needs to back while he has mana. Has anyone every wondered why these junglers became so popular again overnight when season 5 rolled around? Its because a bunch of junglers struggle in the new jungle. Frequent backs and extra gold spent on a ton of potions put them at a severe disadvantage. Especially when Lee has poor scaling into teamfights/late game
Another problem that Lee Sin faces is that he just isnt that great in the high mobility meta. Do you know how difficult it is to land a Q on a mid/late game Kalista? Or Katarina? Or Ahri? Or Leblanc? Or Kassadin? Is it impossible? No. Is it easy to dodge his Q on such high mobility champions? Yes. People are always so quick to point out his early game strength, yet neglect to mention his mid/late game scaling is horrible if he's not snowballing. There are a dozen junglers that are ten times better to have than Lee in team fights.
His damage only scales with bonus AD as opposed to flat AD scaling. This means that he has zero damage scaling while he is building the tank items that are necessary for a bruiser while most other champions scale better with their flat scaling. Partner this with the fact that the season 4 Trifecta for Lee Sin (Jungle item, sight stone, mobi boots) to really abuse his early game strength takes way too long to complete now to be anywhere close to effective.
There is such a fuss going on about 'kicking Veigar while he's down' yet everyone wants to see Lee Sin nerfed into oblivion when he's in a worse spot than Veigar was. Why? Because Lee is used in the LCS? Even though that between EU and NA LCS he has a record of 11W-19L? Is a 37% win rate in the LCS and terrible SoloQ statistics really a sign that a champion warrants nerfs? Should we really just gut his entire kit because that time he ward jumped over a wall and got away? Or occasionally makes a flashy play with his ult? If you take away Lee's utility he's left with nothing.
So can we all take a chill pill? Lee Sin is not really a problem currently. I don't think he will be much of a problem in the near future either as RIOT is working on making jungle bruisers less viable. Emphasis on 'less' viable, not make them completely useless. Junglers that offer way more utility to a team are going to be buffed next patch and I doubt Lee will be able to keep up.
I can't tell if people really think Lee Sin is still OP or if its just some running joke that I'm not in on
JustMyBassCannon1 votesI was...kind of stating that, but less verbose. I've watched Lee Sin's win rate on Lolking ever since his origin patch, and I haven't seen a win rate higher than 49% ever since the start of Season 2.
He's not a problem, I agree. People complain about him, as they have for literally years, but he's not nearly as problematic as almost everything else in League.
Anidan1 votesDude.. I never said he was OP or needed nerfed. Sorry that I made it sound like he did. I'm just pointing out that people desiring a nerf for Lee seem to have no unified idea of what needs nerfed. If he needs a nerf so badly, then couldn't people more easily point out a single thing that puts him over the top? "Everything" is rarely an answer to "what actually needs nerfed to bring him in line?"
Lee is so polarizing in balance that it's ridiculous. You have one group of people who legitimately believe he needs nerfed, but can't decide on any single point to start from; then you have the other side who will say he doesn't need any nerfs. No matter who Riot listens to, they will be demonized for it.
Some people say his mobility is over the top for what he brings to the table, others say it's his damage, or it's his scaling, or it's his sustain, and so on. They can't even decide what needs nerfed but somehow know he needs nerfed. It's ridiculous.
He's very widely used because he brings a lot of early-game power and utility in skilled hands, which the LCS has in spades, so he looks comparatively overpowered. However, it takes a lot more in-game knowledge to decide whether he's actually overpowered or if he simply rewards skill a lot more than other champions. It's kind of like Meepo in DotA - damn near useless if you don't possess the skillset required to play him well, borderline OP if you're great at it and understand his mechanics.
Do I believe he's OP? Not really. However, my opinion won't matter most likely since I'm not even ranked.
Delphinium3 votesYou know how Kalista was bitched after she was played in LCS. She is so dead now after all those nefts.
Eedat2 votesRest in peace Kalista. Probably the quickest LCS-to-garbage transition of all time
http://www.lolking.net/champions/kalista®ion=all&map=sr&queue=1x1#statistics
Tavish6 votesHis health nerf was what really did him in. He has a hard time trading now, and gets blown up by a breeze. God forbid he gets CC'd, because then he will just die instantly.
Slamurai Jack5 votesAs a 
main that still does pretty well with him, he's fine. He just has a very high skill floor now. Before the nerfs, he had the raw stats to beat pretty much anyone, as well as a shit ton of tools to outplay. Now, he has to rely on his outplay mechanics to compete with other champions, as he should with how strong his kit is. In the hands of a skilled and experienced Yasuo, he can consistently beat every mid who isn't Annie, and he can still handle top lane as well, with the exception of Fiora who is a nightmare.
AHeroNamedHawke4 votesHe's pretty garbage atm
Loses lane to pretty much every meta mid, is extremely easy to camp and cant top anymore
Plus people realized "wait I dont need Last Breath to follow up on a Vi ult, I can just play literally any champion in the game!"
Retillin3 votesI honestly think, Riot finally came to understand that free double crit chance and Wind Wall were really hard to balance on the same champion. So he's been Veigar'd until they know what direction they wish to take him.
Zarxis1 votesI honestly think, Riot finally came to understand that free double crit chance and Wind Wall were really hard to balance on the same champion. So he's been Veigar'd until they know what direction they wish to take him.
^This. Riot gave him an overloaded kit that allows him to snowball extremely hard (high AD scalings, double crit chance, W negates so many enemy abilities and ultimates, etc.), so they have to keep him weak or he'll be overly dominant. Hopefully, Riot will find a way to make him reasonable without alienating his current playerbase. Zed is similar, but he doesn't have a passive that doubles his AD. He's certainly stronger than he needs to be at this point, but he's not quite as problematic as pre-nerf Yasuo.
Flawless Fetus3 votesHe was released strong. People pretended he sucked. Buffs ensued. Then he was OP. He was nerfed. He was nerfed. He was nerfed. He was nerfed. He became nearly a troll pick, yet people still claimed he was op. He went from pick/ban to trash, and people still claimed he was op. He is in a weaker spot than release, by far, and very few people thought release Yas was less than weak. I'm sad. He made my pp hard last season. Now it is limp.
PerishSoftly2 votesYasuo can no longer faceroll and acquire win. People do not understand that he cannot do this. People attempt to faceroll and acquire win. People feed.
If you get a good Yasuo who has someone like Diana, Orianna, Alistar, Malphite, or Cho'gath to set up for him you pretty much auto win teamfights.
Flawless Fetus3 votesYasuo can no longer faceroll and acquire win. People do not understand that he cannot do this. People attempt to faceroll and acquire win. People feed.
If you get a good Yasuo who has someone like Diana, Orianna, Alistar, Malphite, or Cho'gath to set up for him you pretty much auto win teamfights.
I played Yasuo in high D3 for quite some time last season. He was my most played champion. I consider myself a good Yasuo, but after all of his nerfs, the majority of which were not needed, I won't be 'auto winning' anything unless I'm playing with scrubs. There was a point where he needed to be toned down, but Riot hit him so many times that I won't dare pick him in a ranked game anymore.
Bisaknosp2 voteswell you will change your mind when an enemy yasuo gets ahead.. if that happens he is very hard to shut down like a trynda because you have to kill him instantly or he will kill you (muh damage muh crit) and actually it CAN be very hard to kill a good yasuo (E, Windwall) if you can play him well you will do fine 2-3 early kills can decide a game he isnt weak imo
KING OF MASKS2 votesSo is everyone just going to ignore the masterful pun in the title of this thread?
JustMyBassCannon1 votesThere's, "Hah, I got the joke," and then there's, "Hey, did everyone get the joke?"
But at least you didn't explain the joke :P
KING OF MASKS1 votesAs I was reading through the thread I didn't see anyone else acknowledging it, so I thought I might as well be the first.
Celeste Benal1 votesI saw that.
Yorukin1 votesI wouldn't say he's weak, per se, but when you have the likes of current Veigar or Kassadin to compete with that's not saying too much. His effectiveness is largely based off of the team compositions; if his team has a lot of reliable knockups, he can ult in from anywhere and wreck teamfights. If his team has no knockups, then he has to rely on his triple Q to do so, which naturally isn't quite as handy. Similarly, if the enemy team has a lot of important projectiles, his W can save him from certain doom most of the time. If they have very few, then it basically becomes a waste of a skill point. Beyond this, his E mechanics and the linear AoE on his Q make him very big on positioning, and even if you can master all of these strategic variances, he's got OK stats.
OhOkYea1 votesYasuo is fine. His windwall can crit for over 4k so I don't think you need to worry.
Imperial Japan1 votesWhat build does he use to do that? Never seen it before
OhOkYea1 votesidk but yasuo is op
Imperial Japan1 votesIf you don't know the facts, don't post it :/ you just don't know how to play against him and many people counter him
OhOkYea1 voteswrong
Imperial Japan1 votesNot really? there are many champion such as fizz or zed that can simply e or ult to dodge your tornado, and every single champion can dodge it without even using an ability. So theres your ult gone unless you get a gank post 6. His w is negated if they have heavy poke as they will poke you when your w is on cool down, your q is just pretty much a elongated more powerful auto so that cannot be negated or his e but he does not have any escapes (unless really pushed up or just going for kills and not cs'ing.) He is also very vulnerable to ganks because of this.
All in all, his w and ult can be completely ignored and his e is useless if he has no minions behind him while being ganked and can only e you once in teamfights unless the teamfight is long and you're a tank so that you can survive that much time that will allow yas to e you again
Imperial Japan1 votes[{quoted}](name=C9 Kitty,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FwXh09tb,comment-id=000d00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-06T10:33:34.028+0000)
Not really? there are many champion such as fizz or zed that can simply e or ult to dodge your tornado, and every single champion can dodge it without even using an ability. So theres your ult gone unless you get a gank post 6. His w is negated if they have heavy poke as they will poke you when your w is on cool down, your q is just pretty much a elongated more powerful auto so that cannot be negated or his e but he does not have any escapes (unless really pushed up or just going for kills and not cs'ing.) He is also very vulnerable to ganks because of this.
All in all, his w and ult can be completely ignored and his e is useless if he has no minions behind him while being ganked and can only e you once in teamfights unless the teamfight is long and you're a tank so that you can survive that much time that will allow yas to e you again
Besides, Draven can crit/damage the enemy for more
OhOkYea1 votesBut when yasuo gets the yellow flame pp then? Nothing can stop him
Imperial Japan1 votesWtf is that? Yellow flame?
Zazusha1 votesits pretty hard to balance a champ with paragraph long descriptions, and breaks 2 different game mechanics.
Overloaded kits are Overloaded.
See 
.
DanofDemacia1 votesThat's the thing he has so much potential to be op he can't be good. His wind wall and double crit chance are so stupid and could be broken if the rest if his kit was okay. When a champion has toxic parts of their kit that's supposedly makes them unique riot decides to leave that toxic part and nerf the rest of them into the ground.
Celeste Benal1 votesWow. Show me on the doll where the bad man touched you.
Celeste Benal1 votesYasuo requires skill rather than just facerolling the keyboard. He can also be hard countered by a number of midlane champs. His build path is pretty rigid and expensive. He is very squishy, rarely building more than 1 semi-tanky item, typically 
or 
.
On the other hand, he is extraordinarily mobile with enemies around, he gets a huge power-spike every time he completes an end-item, and he is an amazing lane pusher. Push lane, roam. Ward. Get kills.
Left Hook Larry1 votesHe's in a good place right now
Slamurai Jack1 votesThe idea that Yasuo has been Veigar'd is laughable to me as a Yasuo Player. Kayle'd, maybe. But certainly not Veigar'd, Olaf'd, or Eve'd. All they did was tune his numbers down a bit so his kit wasn't stupidly overpowering, just like they did with Kayle. Yasuo is still a perfectly fine champion.
Delphinium1 votesIt's stupid for me to buy project yasuo just to celebrate my penta with yasuo and then I suck with him again. Fml.
AkabaneKun1 votesYasuo is fine, ppl just need to realize he only needs two offensive items and then can go full tank, bruiser yasuo is always relevant lategame,ppl just need to be careful early while he is squishy.
