How come Brand support is a thing but Orianna support isn't? (NOT QQ THREAD ABOUT BRAND)

Hrd2H1t·Nov 28, 2016·8 votes·3,141 views

Not that I don't like Brand support, but why has he taken off while Support Orianna hasn't? Orianna has everything a support needs: Her E grants a shield on cast and passive armor and magic resist on whoever it is on, her W gives both a speed boost and a slow, her Q lets her use her ball as a temporary ward so she never has to facecheck bushes, and her ult is perfect for peeling enemies off your carry, bringing in fresh prey, or just for the teamfight CC.

http://imgur.com/di0eouS

78 Comments

EedatNov 28, 20166 votes

Orianna has everything a support needs

except absolutely no hard CC outside her ult? Ori is massively item dependant and is practically useless without them. There really is no reason to take Ori over other APC supports like Zyra who will pump out double the damage and still offer more utility

Hrd2H1tNov 28, 20164 votes

Sona only has hard CC on her ult. Many other supports like Soraka and Lux only have hard CC on one basic ability.

EedatNov 28, 20164 votes

But Sona pumps out way more damage than Ori and has heals and shields for her entire team.

D357R0Y3RNov 28, 20161 votes

escuse me? sona's damage is only strong in early game , after lvl 6 nearly her damage falls off since it's single target on a long cooldown (except ultra late game), scale terribly and unless she is ahead while buying full ap items like lichbane which costs a shit ton of money, she won't deal any damage.

i advise you to look at orianna base damage and come back to tell me if sona has more damage.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20163 votes

Sona actually doesn't pump out high damage...

chipndip1Nov 28, 20161 votes

Janna Braum Bard Zyra Blitzcrank Leona Nautilus Thresh Nami ?

BoompenguinsNov 28, 20164 votes

{quoted}

except absolutely no hard CC outside her ult?

Many supports dont have hard CC outside of one abillity. For example, Taric's only hard cc is his stun on the beam. Soraka has no hard cc at all. What they lack will be made up somewhere else, for example Taric's invulnerabillity and sorakas healing. Orianna has her movementspeed and slow, ball to ward, and a shield.

EedatNov 28, 20164 votes

But Ori offers absolutely nothing that isnt done better by someone else which is why Ori support is just flat out bad

BoompenguinsNov 28, 20162 votes

The thing about ori is that she has a little bit of everything. Other champs have a ton of one thing, Like Leona's hard cc, but leona doesnt have the abillity to shield her adc, or other things.

Amumu

EedatNov 28, 20162 votes

But she doesnt. Orianna support is just worse at things that other supports do better. Pick her for some added AOE damage? does way more. Shields? Sona is ten times better. Zone control? Absolutely no reason to pick her over Zyra . Disengage? Janna .

What does she offer that nobody else does? Legit no reason to pick her over Sona . Sona does everything Orianna does but better lol

GodhriNov 28, 20162 votes

Sona's shield ability range is limited and far weaker than Orianna's. Sona may be able to do similar things that Orianna can do, but she can't do it from far away like Orianna can.

Orianna is like a jack of all trades. She can provide relevant in-lane damage, long range shielding and buffing (speed/slow), and potential zoning capabilities if you manage to poke down your opponents to 40% or lower HP. Unlike other supports, her range and the reliability of her abilities at such long range are unsurpassed. I'm not just theorizing here either. I've used her very recently many times as a support champion and have done pretty well for the most part.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20161 votes

If you want a real reason as to why you don't pick Ori support:

She's very mana hungry in lane. Without the ability to cs for mana, she's shit out of luck even if she starts off strong.
Her ball mechanics aren't the coolest when synergizing with a marksman. It's better with tanks/juggernauts, who can run the ball into enemies for her to ult. In bot lane, everyone's ranged, so getting the ball to them is a lot harder.
Itemization options are kinda poo for her. She's a little bit support, but more so damage/offense, and the support role will force her into buying a ton of expensive shit. If you need someone for healing/shielding, just pick someone else. If you need damage, Zyra/Brand are way better in that regard. If you need both, Sona scales better with the current itemization and shields up to 5 while healing 2 while having an easier ultimate to land.

It's a combination of being outclassed, unsupported by the game environment, and mana hungry.

LordGeovanniNov 29, 20161 votes

only your 3rd thing has relevance as any one who spams their abilites non stop is mana hungry but mage supports have a mastery that gives them missing mana back and a mana regen item to start with and the fact that you aren't useing the mana to cs in the first place like you have to with mid lane orianna. while the ball is very very low mana cost at all ranks its a low cooldown so its always a threat and you can sit it in the enemies minions and zone them out or force them to take free damage when they come to cs. marksmen can use the sheild form oriannas command protect and after it is done still have extra defenses until the ball is moved (those hidden stats that riot say they are gonna get rid of but only do so for tanks and fighters) orianna doesnt need to buy expensive things at all as long as people realize that support orianna isnt mid orianna and you shouldnt expect the same thing just like with any other champion that is played in another lane but can be taken support.

chipndip1Nov 29, 20161 votes

How about I put it like this:

Even if you're spacing your moves out, Ori's mana costs are hard on her lane presence. This is because Riot expects her to supplement her early mana expenditures with AAs, but bot lane doesn't work that way for poking unless you get a serious leg up. Due to this, enemies can force her hand on repeat and deplete her mana. Besides, all of her mana expenditures have like 60+ mana cost per move, even at level 1. On what planet is this low?
If you're going to use Ori just for the shield, you can just use Janna and be done with it. Or Karma. Or Lulu...and Lulu's not even good. You're just making more work for yourself to use a harder champ to do a job poorly in comparison to her competition.

The question isn't can she, it's should she, and she shouldn't.

LordGeovanniNov 29, 20161 votes

that is exactly how bot lane works unless you are a tank support. mage supports poke half and half with auto attack and spells. you need to recheck your command attack mana cost the skill you max first and you dont midlessly throw out spells just like with any other support (besides lux) you aim them and only use your primary spells to poke while you use the secondary ones when you need to escape engage or when you need the burst of damage to finish the enemy off

chipndip1Nov 29, 20161 votes

No, mage supports poke primarily with spells and the occasional AA or two if they get the advantage. Ori needs her passive to cushion the strain on her mana her spells have, but with 2 potential threats to hit back, she can't rev up the passive that well before backing up, and she loses out on damage. If she's just fighting with spells, even if they're spaced, they're so expensive that she's gonna run oom quickly.

Regardless of what you're saying about what supports do, most supports have a bread and butter move to use in lane that DOESN'T cost an arm and a leg to use. Sona's Q, Janna's E, Soraka's W, and it goes on. ALL of Ori's moves are expensive, and that's not changing. Of course mindless spam is gonna run you oom, but Ori runs oom easily no matter what you do. THAT'S what I'm trying to get across.

LordGeovanniNov 29, 20161 votes

sonas q most of its damage in the auto attack. jannas e damage in the auto attack. soraka w needs to supplemented with her q which she auto attacks before she runs away.

chipndip1Nov 29, 20161 votes

All 3 of those are Enchantresses. Kind of different, and no, Janna and Soraka focus on surviving lane, not poking aggressively.

GodhriNov 29, 20161 votes

Hmm... you're right on the matter of mage supports poking primarily with spells, but Ori is much different as her poking power is around 30% auto attacks and 70% skills. As an Ori support, your core goal is to keep the ball near or on your adc while you can orb walk poke. I've done this on many occasions and it is insanely effective. It might not zone, but it will whittle them down for sure.

The thing about Ori is that she is the only mid support-like champion whose build path and role changes vastly depending on the role you put her in (mid/support). As mid, she builds burst and damage while as support she builds utility (which does not necessarily include AP items).

Ori's bread and butter as a support is not a single move. That's the thing. Her bread and butter is essentially her ability to micro manage her skills reliably at a long range while incorporating her passive through orb walking/autos.

I used to think that she should use her skills in lane like Lux or Brand too, but that quickly changed when I tried utilizing better movements/positioning along with orb walking/autos. The latter was much more effective and worked very well with an ADC who isn't an idiot.

chipndip1Nov 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Hmm... you're right on the matter of mage supports poking primarily with spells, but Ori is much different as her poking power is around 30% auto attacks and 70% skills. As an Ori support, your core goal is to keep the ball near or on your adc while you-

Who cares? The point is that if you want defense, there's a billion champs that do it better, and if you want offense, there's STILL a good number of supports that do it better. If you HONESTLY want to use a sub-optimal pick, go ahead, but I'm telling you that it's not a strong pick because it isn't. It's not like I've never seen it before. It just sucks.

GodhriNov 29, 20161 votes

It's not sub-optimal to me. I'm going to just leave it here as it is clear our opinions differ and are not going to change. You haven't said a thing that made me believe it is sub-optimal as a support. It could just be because I am an Orianna main, but it's whatever.

Chamuel85Nov 28, 20163 votes

Soraka does have a snare and an instant cast silence field. Plus a support who doesn't bring a strong CC on a basic ability like Orianna does, pumps out a lot of damage without AP items or a lot of utility (shields, or helas). Orianna's utility is mediocre at best without items. I mean ... Fiora can stun someone, so why isn't she played similar to braum as a support? It's similar to that. the impact is far too little on a low income. Orianna's impact low income is awful. Brand has % Max HP damage on his passive. a huge stun, etc. Plus his passive has a massive massive % max hp damage if you hit 3 abilities.

LordGeovanniNov 29, 20161 votes

orinannas w is not hard cc but in no way is that slow not strong

chipndip1Nov 28, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Many supports dont have hard CC outside of one abillity.

Janna Braum Bard Zyra Blitzcrank Leona Nautilus Thresh Nami ?

L0ve Is BlueNov 28, 20161 votes

And those ability aren't on a 1min+ cooldown. They can use them to engage skirmishes/dissengage frequently not like ori.

chipndip1Nov 28, 20162 votes

{quoted}

except absolutely no hard CC outside her ult?

Sona ?

iLLpNov 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

except absolutely no hard CC outside her ult? Ori is massively item dependant and is practically useless without them. There really is no reason to take Ori over other APC supports like who will pump out double the damage and still offer more utility

orianna has a slow though

LordGeovanniNov 29, 20161 votes

hard cc isnt the only way to be support she has a shield speed and slow zone. sona has no hard cc out side of her ult guess she isnt a support either

A Basic IslandNov 28, 20162 votes

I'd say it has to do with

Lacks hard cc on a basic ability Can't heal compounded with no cc (shields aren't heal, especially delayed shields) Very mana hungry without blue Much more skill intensive than brand

WeatheredNov 28, 20161 votes

Because Brand is able to still do reliable dmg at all stages of the game despite not receiving a real gold income, while Orianna needs farm to be able to be crucial to the team late game regarding dmg.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 28, 20161 votes

but you dont pick ori support for damage . you pick her for zone and cc

WeatheredNov 28, 20162 votes

Of which Brand is somewhat capable of.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 28, 20162 votes

he zones yes but provides no real cc or threat other then damage

he has shit for peel

cant tank

he can stun for 1.5 if his passive is already marked on a target and he hits them with a Q

but its not reliable cc

ZephyrDrakeNov 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FdoEFM0O,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-11-28T02:32:52.125+0000)

but you dont pick ori support for damage . you pick her for zone and cc

what is the enemy going to be afraid of after you use your ult? you have no cc and no threat afterwards to zone anyone and even then your damage is going to be pitiful so tanks will have nothing to be afraid while walking on top of your ball and even dancing on it if they so chose. Orianna needs items in order to be successful otherwise it's like facing an early game orianna for the entire game and we all know how she is in the early game

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 28, 20161 votes

right cuz u wont build any type of ap on her as support?

item 3504 item 3050 item 3116 item 2301 item 3020 item 3107

215 ap from items with ways to buff teammates and 40% cdr

having hp , armor

not including masteries and runes

let say she goes a standard ap mage page +8 mr , +9 armor +15 ap and ap per lvl blues

would give her 215 ap from items +43 ap from tiems for a total of 258 ap from a support role

yep no damage

ZephyrDrakeNov 28, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FdoEFM0O,comment-id=0001000000030000,timestamp=2016-11-28T04:16:50.298+0000)

right cuz u wont build any type of ap on her as support?

215 ap from items with ways to buff teammates and 40% cdr

having hp , armor

not including masteries and runes

let say she goes a standard ap mage page +8 mr , +9 armor +15 ap and ap per lvl blues

would give her 215 ap from items +43 ap from tiems for a total of 258 ap from a support role

yep no damage

and i can build that on any other support and be way more useful as as support. Orianna needs items and a lot of it, also you are talking about the ever so elusive 6 item support... how many times does that happen per game? you would be lucky if you get 4 before the game ends... unless you just got spoonfed kills i bot then again i would just build pure AP at that moment. You can support with Orianna... she is not very good at it though and everyone else just does her job a lot easier, better and without the need to get items (or as many items)

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 28, 20162 votes

i get 6 items all the time as a support player

chipndip1Nov 28, 20161 votes

Legit lying.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 28, 20161 votes

how am i lying ?

chipndip1Nov 29, 20161 votes

Because that doesn't happen for ANY support, period. Not reliably, unless you don't know how to close out game.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 29, 20161 votes

well you are incorrect

majority of games are bronze and silver ranks

those games tend to last the longest.

therefore its most likely that majority of supports reach 6 items in game normally

chipndip1Nov 29, 20161 votes

U rite. Lemme put it like this:

If you aren't bad, you shouldn't expect to hit full build.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 29, 20161 votes

but then again every one below what hmm diamond 2 is consider low elo ?

chipndip1Nov 29, 20161 votes

I mean, if that's how you make yourself feel better, go for it. Anyone that's high Plat+ stands at the top end of the ladder. If you think you're comparable to any and every player around you by simply moving the goal post to the veerrryy corner of the stadium, go ahead.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoNov 29, 20161 votes

it has nothing to do with how i feel

gotta give a fuck about rank to think it means anything

chipndip1Nov 29, 20161 votes

Then it's your loss, but it obviously means something and to say otherwise is delusional.

RisenDarkKnightNov 29, 20161 votes

I must say the nashor's in that build makes no sense. For one thing, 40% cdr was reached from frost queen's, redemtpion, and athene's so 20% cdr is wasted. For another, the build should not be nearly tanky enough that you can stay in auto attack range for a long time, nor is there enough AP to make the +15% ap per auto attack worth it. Just get a luden's or something if you want more damage. (or locket or something for team utility, would probably let you get more passive autos off than nashors would with the additional tank stats and shield active).

Hrd2H1tNov 29, 20162 votes

lol I was waiting for someone to point out the Nashor's. We were right about to end and I kinda bought it without thinking. I wouldn't have bought it if the game was going to last for more than 1 minute after I respawned.

RisenDarkKnightNov 29, 20161 votes

Ah that makes sense.

WolfessNov 29, 20161 votes

because brand has huge aoe and is a lot easier to play, comes with free DoT and zones the unholy crap out of people

whereas ori requires constant repositioning of her ball, which is not a huge aoe and can be dodged to avoid almost all of her damage. the W isn't that big in aoe either, though i would say her kid synergizes a bit better with a potential tanky build since she does nice auto atk damage and could possibly build IBG to synergyze with her low CD Q, giving her mana for spam, CD for spam, and a nice bonus damage on throwing an auto after her skills.