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Garen's passive

DeadlyQuestion··1 votes·751 views

This isn't a QQ thread in any regard. With the recent Garen changes, I've seen some forums complaining about his passive being too powerful; I honestly just have no real idea and want other's opinions.

Is Garen's passive a real problem in game (or what if we just focus on late game)? I never really thought it was a problem, since lifesteal/dps champions can heal pretty quickly themselves, but then it was argued that they pretty much can be quickly nuked while Garen generally doesn't. Also argued that ADCs need to actually AA something to heal (which breaks stealth) compared to Garen who can just sit in a bush for a few seconds contemplating life.

Something I thought of is AP healing champs get to heal, and their mana regen/CDR can make that pretty quick, but again they're generally low in HP and easily nuked easily... and trying to heal a high HP tank in most cases takes four or five times longer than Garen needs. Garen damage potential doesn't really suffer either if his build is focused on maximising his passive.

Even so, the only time I ever feel aggravated that I'm against a Garen is if I'm in ARAM. I think the map is centered around reducing healing as much as possible without completely removing it, but champions like Vladimir and Garen (of course there are others) can stay in lane with minimum deaths because they can keep their health full.

But in a 5v5? Those arguments are starting to make me see why he's kind of a challenge to play against in late game. Yes, you can still fail as a Garen, this isn't a "Garen is actually overpowered," just that it does seem being able to heal completely, infinitely, so far away from his base is kind of becoming hard to see him as NOT a problem. You know? Tell me what you think.

9 Comments

Stephenizgod2 votes

Its not a problem in my opinion for several reasons:

  1. In lane it requires him not to farm for a bit so he can heal up, which is not all that helpful.

  2. Contrary to popular belief, building full tank Garen does diminish his damage greatly.

  3. In teamfights you shouldn't be focusing Garen anyways, throw some CC on him then go for carries. Deal with him when everyone else is dead, his Passive wont matter anymore.

  4. Garen has a weak late game, all he has going for him after a certain point is his tankiness. Unless you are really low, him leaving then coming back isnt all that much of an issue if you can kite him.

  5. Garen has no gap closer, meaning in order to get to his target he needs to run through your whole team. He will most likely be taking a crap ton of damage doing this an even as tanky as he is 5 people hitting him will hurt. His Passive allows him to stay in a teamfight after tanking damage (he has absolutely no other way to tank for his team other then to run at the enemies).

So overall I'd say his Passive is only a problem if he gets really far ahead, which isnt hard or impossible as his early game damage is superb. Still even a fed Garen can be dealt with easily, all you need is good kiting abilities and some well timed CC.

DeadlyQuestion1 votes

I am not trying to argue for the sake of saying he's overpowered, like I said in my initial post, I really am on the fence as to whether his passive really is that overwhelming. But there are a few things I felt your points needed to be addressed with.

1.) [+1] Early game, you have a point.

2.) **[X]**I disagree, actually. With item 3071 and item 3068 he can rock many (most?) non anti-tanks, though I consider 1 AD with a +HP stat & 5 tank items to be "full tank." Sometimes I see a Garen take two damage items, but I rarely do. I always build Black Cleaver and Sunfire though. Those do enough damage to sometimes even 1v1 the ADC without much trouble (kiting and all). If you don't believe me, fine, I am really not here to say I'm right and you're wrong. I accept that my lack of trouble is just their lack of skill; maybe you'd have a very easy time against such a Garen. I am also not saying that if I am right that it's too much or needs to be changed. I just wholly disagree from my own experience that his damage is diminished enough to affect his relevance.

3.) [+1] Of course you shouldn't focus the tank.

4.) [0] I both agree and disagree. Firstly, "If you can kite him." is loud enough statement. With MS quints, Fleet of Foot mastery, Alacrity boot enchant, and his Q, not very many people can kite Garen very far. I agree in the sense that his late game CAN BE WEAK, that depends on two big factors, though, which is both a very specific kind of team comp (and the Garen playing the same way/not making decisions to compensate for that comp) and the player not playing to Garen's strengths.

5.) [+1?] [X?] I don't really know if this is a good point or not. The whole point of my initial post is that I am not wholly convinced one way or the other, and I can't really decide whether this is actually a hindrance. My initial thought, though, was that lots of tanks don't have a gap closer.. not all tanks, but lots of them, and you're labeling this as a specific Garen weakness instead of player weakness. Meaning, since Garen doesn't have a gap closer, don't attempt to target a champion that would cause you to run through the crowd and take more damage than it's worth. It's not really a valid argument I think.

One of the things I considered about whether Garen's passive was too much was the way I like to play him. I generally stay in one lane and push turrets, keeping the jungle warded. By mid and late game, the enemy USUALLY NEEDS two champions at that turret in order to prevent at least minions from damaging it a little. If they only keep one, I can either poke them down enough to kill them (or make them back while I heal and pressure that turret) or at least keep sustain while my minions incrementally bleed the turret down. If they force TWO champions to defened? My team gets a free 4v3 team fight while they push another lane. Usually if more than two come to push me away from the turret, it opens my team up for serious split pushing, while I wait for the enemy to give up the chase, me heal, and then return to that lane to push. We win almost every time.

Now, I know I keep repeating myself, but it's important to me that it's made clear that this isn't an argument for his passive being overpowered. It just something that helped it be seriously considered and questioned to me. Maybe there's a better strategy for dealing with the harassment I described. We don't win 100% of the time, sometimes they have enough tank-busters or CC that only one champion is enough to prevent me from escaping when a second champion comes to help. It's just a very specific team composition that gives me trouble, and sometimes not always then if they don't use them right.

Stephenizgod1 votes

Yea with BC and Sunfire his damage is good... early game... Late game his damage is so low you can mostly ignore him. The only time his damage is something to worry about is when he is full AD Garen or if you are at like 40% health.

Kiting doesnt mean just running (althought as long as he doesnt catch you within 4 seconds you can escape) you can also CC him, all you need to do is wait for him to Q and then slow him. Boom kited nothing he can do about it except flash. Its not a matter of team comp, if their ADC is decently fed and has LW then they will kill Garen if they get reasonable peel. If you cant get to the carries you are forced into fighting their front line where his low damage is made even more irrelevant. Building more damage only works if you are ahead, which of course means you are probably going to be unstoppable.

What i meant was that Garens design is for him to run at his target through all the enemies and shrugging off their damage. I didnt say it was a weakness at all, i meant that his design means he will take a ton of damage doing it. The passive allows him to run through their team kill the carry and then run off into the jungle to heal only to come back like 6 sec later and do it again. Its not a weakness of his that he has no gap closer, its a design flaw that so many champion have a shit ton of mobility. Also most tanks have a gap closer... most Fighters have a gap closer... Not saying Garen needs one im just pointing it out that alot of tanks and fighters have gap closers, more then those that do not.

My Garen play is to get fed laning phase. If i think im going to win lane i take ignite and stomp early and hard then either go mid if they need it or just push the tower down. Killing them 2-3 times usually means i take the turret or at the very least force the Jungler to stay top. Mid game, once ive taken the turret, if i am fed i will go to other lanes and just roam in general. If im not fed i will split push almost all game. The problem for me is not Garen, its my teammates. They expect me to peel for them or sit back and do something, idk what they want. They do not know what to do when i go in and kill the ADC and Mid and Jungler so they either leave me to die thinking im stupid for engaging or they are focusing enemy tank. Most of the time they just leave me... They dont realize i just forced the ADC and maybe support to retreat from the fight leaving my team the best possible chance to win the teamfight...

DeadlyQuestion1 votes

Try my strategy bro! It's pretty fun!

Stephenizgod1 votes

Split push all game? I do that majority of the time but im at Silver elo and they dont understand how to play with someone split pushing. They force a 4v5 and lose and suddenly its my fault because they couldnt wait 5 seconds for me to get a turret...

darkdill1 votes

In Garen's case, it's a problem because he's one of the toughest Champions in the game to kill if you don't have a tank-buster Champion like Kog'Maw or Vayne. His Courage makes his durability rather nuts, and he tends to build almost pure tank in most games. If he survives with a sliver of health, has a Warmog's Armor and Spirit Visage, he'll be back up to full health after no more than 30 seconds without needing to recall.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

full tank garen sucks. and his passive is not granting him in combat sustain. thats a huge drawback.

its actual strength is in siege scenarios and to push an advantage after a won fight. instead of recalling, he can start pushing the lane, to be healed up and tank the turret for his team if he needs to. in siege scenarios, he can body block poke until hes around half health, fall back to heal and go back into the front. hes probably the hardest counter to nidalee spears. just take them to the face, and laugh them off.

plus, everyone with lifesteal can regenerate health quickly after a fight on a jungle camp, or on a creep wave.

not to mention, if it takes 30 seconds to regenerate full health, thats pretty much the same time it takes to recall and run back into lane.

his lvl 16 passive is the only thing that makes him uique right now. he needs it. its the only thing in his kit, that no one else has.

and as you can see, his passive isnt even enough, to give him a noticable impact on games.

DeadlyQuestion1 votes

One of the things I considered about whether Garen's passive was too much was the way I like to play him. I generally stay in one lane and push turrets, keeping the jungle warded. By mid and late game, the enemy USUALLY NEEDS two champions at that turret in order to prevent at least minions from damaging it a little. If they only keep one, I can either poke them down enough to kill them (or make them back while I heal and pressure that turret) or at least keep sustain while my minions incrementally bleed the turret down. If they force TWO champions to defened? My team gets a free 4v3 team fight while they push another lane. Usually if more than two come to push me away from the turret, it opens my team up for serious split pushing, while I wait for the enemy to give up the chase, me heal, and then return to that lane to push. We win almost every time.

Now, I know I keep repeating myself, but it's important to me that it's made clear that this isn't an argument for his passive being overpowered. It just something that helped it be seriously considered and questioned to me. Maybe there's a better strategy for dealing with the harassment I described. We don't win 100% of the time, sometimes they have enough tank-busters or CC that only one champion is enough to prevent me from escaping when a second champion comes to help. It's just a very specific team composition that gives me trouble, and sometimes not always then if they don't use them right.

Sir Yamazuki1 votes

{quoted}

One of the things I considered about whether Garen's passive was too much was the way I like to play him. I generally stay in one lane and push turrets, keeping the jungle warded. By mid and late game, the enemy USUALLY NEEDS two champions at that turret in order to prevent at least minions from damaging it a little. If they only keep one, I can either poke them down enough to kill them (or make them back while I heal and pressure that turret) or at least keep sustain while my minions incrementally bleed the turret down. If they force TWO champions to defened? My team gets a free 4v3 team fight while they push another lane. Usually if more than two come to push me away from the turret, it opens my team up for serious split pushing, while I wait for the enemy to give up the chase, me heal, and then return to that lane to push. We win almost every time.

Now, I know I keep repeating myself, but it's important to me that it's made clear that this isn't an argument for his passive being overpowered. It just something that helped it be seriously considered and questioned to me. Maybe there's a better strategy for dealing with the harassment I described. We don't win 100% of the time, sometimes they have enough tank-busters or CC that only one champion is enough to prevent me from escaping when a second champion comes to help. It's just a very specific team composition that gives me trouble, and sometimes not always then if they don't use them right.

How are you "poking" your opponent as Garen? All of his damage requires him to walk into melee range and many top laners can handle Garen by themselves. He actually loses a lot of his games too. He takes towers very slowly compared to other top laners as well.

You also don't start the game level 18 full items, you have to actually do well in lane as Garen to be relevant and in lane your passive is non-existent. There is no competent opponent that isn't going to toss an ability or auto Garen every now and then.

In terms of Regen, Riven builds 2 life steal items and auto attacks a minion/monster and is instantly full HP, same can be said about an ADC that crits a minion. Garen has to actually wait for has passive to come up, then wait a while to reach full HP. Then in combat he loses all that sustain again where as the other 2 examples don't.

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