Stealth is an unfun mechanic that lacks counterplay.

Lilo and Gnar·Apr 23, 2018·51 votes·14,357 views

Unless you managed to say tether them with an ability that grants true sight, you have no other option of spotting them if you don't count the shit way a red trinket allows you to "see" them. Camouflage is a lot more balanced as you can spot them by being near them or simply using red wards to play around them. It's a lot more healthy to play against.

Why should a champion like shaco come out of nowhere and one shot me with his auto while i am unable to react? Rengar I can see coming with his ult notification and the fact that he has a travel time jumping at you. Eve usually engages by using her charm and you are able to react if she comes close to you to land her ability or auto you.

Shaco has almost no counterplay to an already easy to use kit.

80 Comments

FrostQueensPlaneApr 23, 201825 votes

Riot learned this, and then they unlearned it. What can you do when the developers are like this.

Oh btw this board is filled with shaco abusers don't bother trying to discuss these champions here.

XonraApr 24, 20182 votes

It's less that they unlearned it and the people that learned it don't work there anymore or were overruled by new people that got a job above them came in.

Same stuff that happened to lore (not saying that negatively just factually), when changes happened it wasn't the old team changing because reasons, it was a completely new group not wanting to do it the old way.

Riot doesn't actually learn from their mistakes (hence them saying once a year about "we won't make this same mistake" they've made already) because the people that learn then leave and are replaced by a new 20 something with no experience at Riot or even League of Legends.

Dead flag bluesApr 23, 201815 votes

Evelynn got reworked because being permanently stealthed was toxic

Khazix a few months later, Cancer Lord the 3rd got a small rework

SpecterVonBarenApr 24, 20182 votes

Uh... Kha's rework was before Eve's VGU.

PB4UAMEApr 24, 20181 votes

Not her REWORK though, which is what he's specifically talking about?

Don't try to correct people if you don't actually know League history. Eve was Eve'd because of her permanent stealth, then reworked in season 2/near the beginning of season 3 along with Katarina, leading to a burst AP mid lane meta shortly afterwards.

Her VGU is continued work to try to help a permanently stealthed champion jungle again because previously RIOT reworked her out of the jungle virtually entirely because of how fundamentally problematic a stealthed jungler is-- but community outcry made them retool her to be a jungler again.

SpecterVonBarenApr 24, 20181 votes

Maybe he could SPECIFY which rework he meant then?

LazyW0lfApr 23, 201815 votes

It annoys me that R evolve Kha can literally run through your jungle and unless he's slow enough or you have deep enough wards, you will never know he's there until it's too late. He makes death brushes useless even with a pink since he can just walk right through and the enemy team is none the wiser.

MarothennanApr 24, 20182 votes

Kha is an AD version of Evelynn rn

Malicious MetalApr 24, 20183 votes

With arguably less counterplay.

RaveolutionApr 24, 20183 votes

I feel like not enough people seem to be aware of or understand how insanely strong Kha's evolve R is.

DrugsForRobotsApr 23, 201813 votes

Shaco Main here.

I've asked Riot repeatedly to make his evil laugh upon disappearing more audible, and to give his boxes a 'music AoE' so that you know when you're near one. That way players could at least have a split second of warning before Shaco appears behind them, and he couldn't just Q and run for 3+ seconds, engaging them from 3000 units away.

The other Shaco Mains don't want it though. "Ganking would be impossible," they say. They prefer that Shaco remain unfair, because having telegraphing on an assassin would be 'unfair' for Shaco. IKR?

Z3SleeperApr 24, 20185 votes

Music AoE sounds dope. They should base Shaco's stealth around audio queues. Sounds like a cool mechanic.

Half the problem with Shaco for me tho is that even if you know he's coming, that blink is too damn fast to react to in time (without flash or a dash).

Mirage NightApr 24, 20183 votes

Problem is there is a large deaf community who do play this game. Unfortunately, "audio" only cues would not work for this.

Z3SleeperApr 24, 20186 votes

Oh... you are very, very right.

Inb4 subtitles for " [Maniacal Laughter] " and " [Heebie Jeebie Music] " lol.

MarothennanApr 24, 20181 votes

Yeah also people that play without sound ( some have sound disabled to improve performance )

DrugsForRobotsApr 24, 20182 votes

I've also asked that Riot give Shaco's puff of smoke a graphical update (a mini-VFX update, similar to how back in 2015 Rumble's fiery "meatballs" were graphically reworked to more closely resemble flames). The other Shaco Mains fight me even harder on this than on the audio cue though.

It is unfortunate for the deaf community, but audio cues would go a long way for the majority of players. That said, I do think there need to be more forms or instances of getting vision / information. For example:

More abilities that could grant limited AoE True Sight: Velkoz 's Ulti (the True Sight AoE is limited to the lazer beam) Zyra 's Seeds (if stepped on, could grant tiny True Sight pollen cloud) Swain 's Vision of the Empire (it's already a smallish AoE that doesn't last long)

Other abilities that could offer detection without revealing (that is, without allowing targeted attacks or abilities): MasterYi 's Meditate (invisible enemies' aura is revealed to him while approaching him if he's meditating) Vayne 's Night Hunter (could reveal the outline of enemies she's attacked recently through the Fog of War, but not allow her to actually attack them) https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLg0AMkG.png&f=1 A bat-like Yordle Assassin who had an Echolocation ability.

Riot could use vision / information as a lever for balancing champions, and they do to an extent, but I think there need to be more detection abilities like item 3364 's Shadow Silhouette, RekSai 's Tremor Sense, Warwick 's Blood Scent, etc. to counter-act the number of invis-abilities.

Alhazred The DadApr 23, 201811 votes

Leblanc

Votable JesterApr 23, 201810 votes

I think Shaco's Q should stealth for the first 1-2 seconds and camouflage for the remaining duration. That would give him the ability to still use it to juke and escape and such while still preventing him from walking from super far away to stab you in the back without warning.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 23, 20187 votes

Stealth is fine, as long as it's kept in a reasonably bound area.

Akali's stealth is fine (It's everything else that's problematic), as it leaves her in a fairly small, very visible, well-defined area. Vayne's stealth, for all that it's bitched about, is fine (you're stuck in a small area with it), as is Kai'sa's (it being essentially Vayne's stealth, except she has to walk instead of rolling). Teemo's stealth is (usually) fair, as he's stuck in one spot with it.

Camo is (usually) fine, since it leaves you time to react.

It's not stealth that's the issue - it's a problem when you can't react at all to something.

LordGeovanniApr 24, 20186 votes

Akali's stealth is fine in isolation if you dont talk about her passive or q at all.

DuskDaUmbreonApr 24, 20182 votes

Hence why I said everything else about her was the problem.

Akali's shroud is probably the most healthy part of her kit right now, honestly.

CppLApr 24, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Stealth is fine, as long as it's kept in a reasonably bound area.

Akali's stealth is fine (It's everything else that's problematic), as it leaves her in a fairly small, very visible, well-defined area. Vayne's stealth, for all that it's bitched about, is fine (you're stuck in a small area with it), as is Kai'sa's (it being essentially Vayne's stealth, except she has to walk instead of rolling). Teemo's stealth is (usually) fair, as he's stuck in one spot with it.

Camo is (usually) fine, since it leaves you time to react.

It's not stealth that's the issue - i**t's a problem when you can't react at all to something. **

how can you react to something if you cant fucking see...

DuskDaUmbreonApr 24, 20181 votes

Because not all stealth is unable to be reacted to.

Vayne's stealth is hardly going to be used to assassinate you when you're in lane. Same with Kai'sa's. Akali's stealth is in a very visible, defined area.

Camo has some reveal mechanic, some even have multiple (Such as Rengar's R).

LordGeovanniApr 25, 20181 votes

I dont agree with Kai'sa stealth part

DuskDaUmbreonApr 25, 20181 votes

It's half a second of stealth. That's half of Vayne's stealth duration.

She moves about the same distance during it, except at very high attack speed values. She has more total uptime, but Vayne is able to use her Q more frequently, meaning during her ult, she gets more stealth than Kai'sa does.

Basically, they end up about the same in regards to their stealth.

LordGeovanniApr 27, 20181 votes

while kai'sa stealth is .5 seconds or less She definitely does not move the same distance and kai'sa attack speed on it and general throwing out all her spells at once she kills things much faster than vayne.

Teridax68Apr 24, 20185 votes

In one of his more recent comments on Reddit, Scarizard commented on how champion design tends to have peaks and valleys of counterplay: some parts of a kit tend to have more counterplay than others, and when a champion has a feature that specifically is low on counterplay, then they should have to make up for it by having an especially large amount of meaningful counterplay elsewhere. This, I think, should apply to stealth, so while I don't think going invisible is necessarily bad in itself (champions are largely invisible as they roam around the map, for example, even with proper ward placement), I take issue with how so many stealth champions can also one-shot people. Shaco and Kha'Zix are currently among the worst offenders, as both have their damage loaded in such a manner that they can kill people within the first few moments of popping out of stealth, which makes them uninteractive overall.

If a champion could attack anyone from stealth, but then took actual time to kill them, they would likely still be healthy in spite of their stealth, and I think this is the kind of philosophy that should be applied to these champions: instead of necessarily trying to give stealth itself more counterplay, it might help to give these champions counterplay when they're actually fighting, namely by giving their opponents a chance to escape or fight back. I know that's a painful thing to say in an environment where the targets for assassins can usually take advantage of that small window to receive craptons of shields, heals and peel, but then again the latter is the problem, more than the former (assuming the slower burst is done right, rather than forced awkwardly into those champions' kits).

Jerry SeinfeIdApr 24, 20183 votes

Ok, this post could've been decent enough if it didn't turn out to be a shaco qq post.

Champions get true invisible when their stealth is low duration like Vayne Kaisa Khazix and ofc Shaco or in cases where the stealth is hated in some way Teemo Akali

You mention Evelyn and regards as good examples but they both have ways to deal with their camo range. By the time an adc that's not Tristana Xayah or Ezreal sees rengar he'll just jump them and they'll be at his Mercy. And Evelyn can hard cc you from stealth.

Shaco can't, he has to get behind you, in melee range within a 4.5 (I think) seconds window of time. Shaco needs this, now mister I'm in the jungle so I'm permanent true invisible while oneshotting everyone over here Khazix is a different story.

Sire HippingtonApr 24, 20183 votes

Stealth as a mechanic is not the issues, it's the tuneing. You already pointed it out, eve and rengar are telegraphed and they can be spoted if you get near them. The one champ you seem to have issues with is Shaco, and i can totally understand that, he doesn't have an indicator, he's invisible rather than camouflaged, and yet his Q lasts ong enough to close in from way out of vision, especially with mobi boots and ghostblade.

The comcept of stealth is fine, camouflage helps to get flanks but doesn't help once you're directly in comboat, Invis should be short durationed that alows to be used defensively in combat, loosing focus and repositioning. Kahs ult and Kai'sa's E are good examples. However, riot failed on some champs. Twitch for example has such a short detection range and no indicator on his Stealth that he directly can open fire befor you an idea what's happening. Shaco's stealth last so long that it can be usedagressively as engagetool like camouflage without the counterplay that camou has. Kah with evolved ult has similar issues where he can just make to much distance in full invisibillity.

The issue is not the raw mechanic, but how it's implemented on some champs.

5050BSApr 24, 20183 votes

Stealth was fine when you could buy Pink wards to counter it. It cost you gold and was limited to where you placed the wards but was SOMTHING you could do.

What we have now is just stupid for all the champs with stealth.

ElixorsApr 23, 20182 votes

Teemo item 3070

MuffledGarbageApr 24, 20182 votes

Stealth as a WHOLE is actually a healthy mechanic that has counterplay

the problem is that there are specific abusers of stealth that LACK that counterplay

Ex: Evelynn has a form of stealth that forces her to either:

A: Get CC but let enemies know where you are coming from while giving them a huge chance to run away

B: Get some free damage but you can't CC anyone with half a brain

In both situations, Evelynn loses out on something which makes it more fair for people fighting against her Stealth because Evelynn can never have the best of those two situations without giving up the other situation Evelynn's main goal is to kill valuable targets until EXTREME lategame(50+ minutes) in which she becomes a way to pressure enemy ADCs off from fighting teams and she looks to 1v1 skirmish before teamfights

Second Ex: Kha'zix

Kha's stealth has NO downsides to using it once it's been activated. The only time that a Kha player can misuse their stealth is when they are entirely alone(and know that they are alone) which is EXTREEMLY unlikely to happen

Kha's stealth enhances his main goal, to kill valuable targets until lategame where he wants to kill targets before teamfights

A Kha player can do more than the Evelynn player with the damage they are both given BECAUSE his stealth allows him to do his job better than what Evelynn can

This in turn means that Kha's stealth is unhealthy due to the interactions it has with his kit. Evelynn's stealth, however, is extremely healthy due to how it forces her and her opponents to play around it(with chances for both sides to mess up horribly).

It is nigh-impossible for a Kha'Zix to mess up spamming all of their abilities on an enemy. It is up to Kha's enemies entirely to mess up in order for Kha to win an even fight(1v1, 2v2, etc)

It's extremely possible for an Evelyn to mess up her abilities if she doesn't use them correctly. It's up to both Evelynn to succeed and up to Enemies to evade Evelynn's advances for situations to play out properly

If an enemy messes up against Kha'Zix they will lose if they are isolated. If an enemy messes up against Evelynn they have a chance to succeed because the Evelynn CAN mess up

In other words Stealth as a whole is fine but champs like Kha'Zix, Akali, Shaco, and Twitch are outliers whom abuse stealth due to their kits not functioning around the sheer POWER of stealth

If each of those champs had their power levels stripped until proper usage of their stealth mechanics made them good or bad(depending on player skill entirely) then that would make them balanced

Unfortunately Riot BARELY knows how to balance their own game, so we are stuck in this nightmare-land until Riot fires current balance team and replaces them with McDonald's employees who play video games(and probably know more about game-balance than current balance team)

MarothennanApr 24, 20182 votes

"Stealth has too much counterplay" - Rito games when they reworked stealth From too much to 0

REDCOLOREDApr 23, 20181 votes

Shaco and i would say Illaoi . they have no counterpick. I had same post about shaco he is truly broken.

PhieldworkerApr 23, 20183 votes

Just learn Illaoi like I did and then you know how to counter her.

Auz the RipperApr 24, 20183 votes

There's two things you need to do to counter illaoi

is your choice of: ........A) be ranged ........B) bait her ult
is dodge her shit

The Yetii RiderApr 24, 20181 votes

Shaco's Q has an animation that can be seen from the fog of war, that's the counterplay.

Akali's Stealth has a shimmer effect where if you hit her with damage she is kind of revealed. You can't target her, but you know where she is for skill shots and AOE.

EranellApr 24, 20181 votes

Except that Akali has a massive movement speed buff inside her shroud which makes it near impossible to hit skill shots that aren't as big as Ziggs' Ult... which she could also dodge if there are enemies nearby she can jump to.

The Yetii RiderApr 24, 20183 votes

Akali's MS buff is 20% at rank 1 and I'm pretty sure she maxes W last.

EranellApr 24, 20181 votes

Still more than enough to dodge most skillshots.

MarothennanApr 24, 20181 votes

That shimmer effect is available for every stealth effect in this game, including camouflage. Doesn't make Akali's w less retarded. Also I think the problem have with Akali's w is that it lasts longer than a pornstar in bed. Another thing that bugs me about it is that if you somehow manage to land a stun on her she goes invisible while stunned for some reason.

Z3SleeperApr 24, 20181 votes

Stealth when done right has counterplay

Evelynn Rengar Vayne Kaisa Talon Teemo

Stealth when done wrong does not

Khazix Shaco Akali (lane, thank god for the targeted abilities draw minion aggro mechanic tho)

This guy is somewhere in between

Twitch

ShaolinToiletApr 24, 20181 votes

I remember when the boards were complaining about vayne and how her stealth is broken

Z3SleeperApr 24, 20181 votes

I don't associate with the fickle hive mind.

I'm the guy who says Mordekaiser being able to heal 1/3rd of his life bar off 2 pet units makes him counter certain champions unfairly and I get the much-expected torches, pitchforks and logically unsound personal bias comments w/ accompanying downvotes.

Ionian VulpixApr 24, 20181 votes

Pretty sure they were complaining about her because Tumble could crit at that time.

Weiner the PoohApr 24, 20181 votes

Kai’sa has cosplay? AHAHA

RaiyzaApr 24, 20181 votes

Riot needs to allow two control wards per player, and increase the cost.

That way if you really need to deal with stealth, it should be something invested in.

OnandagaApr 24, 20181 votes

To be fair stealth in this game is quite mild compared to most other mobas. Just look at riki/bounty hunter from dota or Loki from Smite.

Sorin AlucardApr 24, 20181 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

MegaHuffApr 26, 20181 votes

I agree it has less counterplay. I feel like it somewhat makes sense for very brief stealths or whatever, as you probably won't actually miss them when they use it, and it's just an in-the-moment disorientation.

Still though, you gotta wonder what was going on when they said "lets make some stealths reveal when close like an Evelynn, but make others completely unable to see."