i believe that vayne is super unhealthy champion she does more damage than evey other champion she is super hard to kill due to her stealth her w does way too much dmg you can t counter her with armor or health like every other marksman also if a new player picks her he will just suck and be useless and if an expert pick her he will destroy games and 1v5 everyone i don t suggest to nerf her i think she needs a rework
Nidelkha2 votesLol vayne mains are all butthurt and disliking. Vayne too OP.
L0ve Is Blue1 votesMaybe just make her W magic or physical damage instead of true, that would be nice...
Nahui1 votesOr maybe buy a pink ward and nuke her into oblivion.
Critmaster Garen1 voteslategame vayne has the carry potential of a 6 item kog maw, without his drawbacks.
she gets to deal a shitload of damage with a ton of outplay potential in her kit, that allows her to 1v1 just because. other lategame hypercarries need dedicated peel teamcomps to work. twitch, kog maw are exactly like that.
they can shred an entire team to pieces, but while they do, they can barely move. strength and weaknesses.
there is no reason vayne is one of the best 1v1 marksmen in the game while simultaneously being able to hard carry. she doesnt have weaknesses, but only an assortment of strengths. she has tools to counterplay her opponent without having counterplay herself.
the only reason she doesnt have even more absurd pick and winrates after her buffs like at the end of season 5 right now, is because she loses a lot of matchups in lane early on. just wait for another meta shift that puts her back into the game, and her winrate is going to explode.
just like jinx. absolute cancer.
Surfer Ashe4 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=En4saPmq,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-03-26T14:33:11.814+0000) the only reason she doesnt have even more absurd pick and winrates after her buffs like at the end of season 5 right now, is because she loses a lot of matchups in lane early on. just wait for another meta shift that puts her back into the game, and her winrate is going to explode.
No shit Sherlock.
That's like saying "Tanks are great now because the meta favors AD burst champs" DUH! That's why the meta shifted this direction and away from S5 powerhouses like Jinx, Vayne and Trist.
Vayne has a real weakness - her early game. Itemization changes hurt her a lot too seeing as her rush items deal no damage or were nerfed. When that pressure is absent, that's when Vayne shines. Using Kog'Maw as a benchmark is lame too - Kog has been shitty for a long, long time, excluding that stupid patch. It's like using Urgot as a benchmark for top laners.
We can deal with Vayne now early and she can still keep her late game if she makes it. Sounds like she's exactly where she should be.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Surfer Ashe,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=En4saPmq,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-03-26T14:43:32.924+0000)
Vayne has a real weakness - her early game.
"her early game" is not an actual weakness. its a stat check. and if youve ever played against a vayne on top lane on a melee, then youll quickly realize that her "weak" early game is only a thing compared to other adc.
a champions kit having an actual weakness means its an intended part of her kit as a counterweight to her strengths. like kog maw deals a lot of damage, but is squshy and has 0 mobility to work with.
so if you get past his range, you can shut him down very easily.
vayne is designed around outplaying her opponent while dealing similar damage, without having windows of weakness, or direct weaknesses in her kit to make up for it.
lets take energy champions for example. their intended windows of weakness are supposed to be between their cooldowns and when low on energy. they usually bring a crapton of burst, and some mobility. but if you manage to bait out a certain ability or catch them out on low energy, theyre screwed. its a weakness in their kit that their opponents can play around. this weakness persists at every stage of the game.
for juggernauts its their heavy melee focused kit for example. they bring a ton of duelling potential in melee, but their ability to get into a position where they can carry is extremely restricted and they often rely on their team to set them up. their susceptibility to kiting is a weakness their opponents can play around throughout the game.
vaynes has all around very low cooldowns and no direct weaknesses that you can play around when trying to fight her. her entire kit is designed around outplaying you.
Surfer Ashe4 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=En4saPmq,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2016-03-26T14:46:58.458+0000)
"her early game" is not an actual weakness its a stat check.
a champions kit having an actual weakness means its an intended part of her kit as a counterweight to her strengths. like kog maw deals a lot of damage, but is squshy and has 0 mobility to work with.
so if you get past his range, you can shut him down.
vayne is designed around outplaying her opponent while dealing similar damage, without having windows of weakness, or direct weaknesses in her kit to make up for it.
Oh god, let's not start throwing around buzzwords that hold little meaning. A "stat-check" also implies you can't get away from said champion (Akali, Udyr, Diana, Irelia) and basically you have to "outstat" them to win the fight. Escaping Vayne or retaliating on her squishy ass is easy in relation.
Riot is too scared to go far with Kog'maw - he doesn't deal enough damage to justify his weakness and usually keep him in a pitiful state...like Urgot.
"Window of weakness", god man, you're killing me. Riot even said they're steering away from the balance philosophy. Vayne's weakness involve being item dependent for damage (her Q is a damage multiplier, her W requires ATS and her ult gives her some stats for a short period of time) - she has no base damages (excluding her E if it stuns) and when delayed and denied gold, suffers a lot more than you give credit.
Pink wards, forcing her to swap targets before silver bolts adds up in damage, burst (she has a meager HP pool). Her strength is 1v1 - why are you fighting her in her strong suit? It's like complaining about Tryn when he wrecks you 1v1, yet we all know not to. Disrepecting Vayne's strengths doesn't make her OP, it just makes you dumb.
I'm not a Vayne apologist but this witch-hunting with misguided facts against her is pretty damn stupid in my book.
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Surfer Ashe,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=En4saPmq,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-26T14:54:34.628+0000)
"Window of weakness", god man, you're killing me. Riot even said they're steering away from the balance philosophy.
ive never seen this comment from them before. until now, they repeatedly said gving every champion a set of clear strengths and weaknesses is their main focus. not just giving them a set of strengths (jinx, irelia), but also direct counterplay as part of their kits.
having windows of weakness allows them to give champions significant windows of strength, that make the player feel good about picking this champion.
like darius is very susceptble to kiting and heavily team reliant to get into the middle of the enemy team long enough to start rolling. but when he gets to a certain point, and manages to stay long enough in melee range, he starts chain dunking and destroying your team.
being susceptible to kiting and being outright useless, when he doesnt get close to you, is a very clear weakness he has to deal with in return of being able to hard carry games. he has to deal with this weakness throughout the entire game. its a part of his kit.
whats vaynes weakness exactly?
[{quoted}](name=Surfer Ashe,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=En4saPmq,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-26T14:54:34.628+0000) It's like complaining about Tryn when he wrecks you 1v1
ok, first of all. bad example. taking one really problematic and frankly broken champion as an example to defend another is probably not a good idea. i would even go as far as argue that vayne isnt even nearly as broken as tryn. shes just too strong for her versatility and needs a specific weakness built into her kit to keep her w. like making it mana gated for example. or something else that allwos you to prevent her from triggering it. the 3 hit mechanic alone is clearly nont enough. tryn has a plethora of other problems, starting with his early game relying on rng.
second: he actually doesnt. most of his playstile is constent splitpushing and avoiding any sort of fight. tryn doesnt actually want skirmishes or 1v1's most of the time. he just wants you to react and send 2 people into top lane for him, while he makes you chase him in circles and wastes your time. if you ignore him he resumes pushing and takes turrets.
even then. while tryn is good at 1v1's under certain conditions, hes consistently shit in teamfights. its not like vayne is as useless in teamfights, as good as shes in 1v1's and skirmishes.
Surfer Ashe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=En4saPmq,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-26T15:05:15.677+0000)
ive never seen this comment from them before. until now, they repeatedly said gving every champion a set of clear strengths and weaknesses is their main focus. not just giving them a set of strengths (jinx, irelia), but also direct counterplay as part of their kits.
having windows of weakness allows them to give champions significant windows of strength, that make the player feel good about picking this champion.
like darius is very susceptble to kiting and heavily team reliant to get into the middle of the enemy team long enough to start rolling. but when he gets to a certain point, and manages to stay long enough in melee range, he starts chain dunking and destroying your team.
being susceptible to kiting and being outright useless, when he doesnt get close to you, is a very clear weakness he has to deal with in return of being able to hard carry games. he has to deal with this weakness throughout the entire game. its a part of his kit.
whats vaynes weakness exactly?
ok, first of all. bad example. taking one really problematic and frankly broken champion as an example to defend another is probably not a good idea. i would even go as far as argue that vayne isnt even nearly as broken as tryn. shes just too strong for her versatility and needs a specific weakness built into her kit to keep her w. like making it mana gated for example. or something else that allwos you to prevent her from triggering it. the 3 hit mechanic alone is clearly nont enough. tryn has a plethora of other problems, starting with his early game relying on rng.
second: he actually doesnt. most of his playstile is constent splitpushing and avoiding any sort of fight. tryn doesnt actually want skirmishes or 1v1's most of the time. he just wants you to react and send 2 people into top lane for him, while he makes you chase him in circles and wastes your time. if you ignore him he resumes pushing and takes turrets.
even then. while tryn is good at 1v1's under certain conditions, hes consistently shit in teamfights. its not like vayne is as useless in teamfights, as good as shes in 1v1's and skirmishes.
I'd love to give you a source, but basically in the thread, someone asked if Riot liked Ryze'a window of opportunity, and the Rioter stated they were shifting away from the philosophy in general as it also creates some polarizing plays. Whether or not you believe me is one thing, but that phrase and phase has been dropped lately
I'm not really in the mood to keep telling you why you're wrong and you deconstruct why I'm wrong with sematics. I'm not gonna convince you why Vayne is fine at the moment, why Vayne only gets slight changes when popular and you aren't going to convince me that Vayne is OP.
At the moment, Vayne is fine. If Vayne becomes OP, she will be adjusted accordingly, like every other champion in the game. It's like telling me "Galio is OP because he will counter all the newly reworked mages and needs nerfs" but RIGHT NOW Galio suffers from an AD meta (and he sucks in general but you get the gist)
Critmaster Garen1 votes[{quoted}](name=Surfer Ashe,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=En4saPmq,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-26T16:06:15.293+0000)
I'd love to give you a source, but basically in the thread, someone asked if Riot liked Ryze'a window of opportunity, and the Rioter stated they were shifting away from the philosophy in general as it also creates some polarizing plays. Whether or not you believe me is one thing, but that phrase and phase has been dropped lately
I'm not really in the mood to keep telling you why you're wrong and you deconstruct why I'm wrong with sematics. I'm not gonna convince you why Vayne is fine at the moment, why Vayne only gets slight changes when popular and you aren't going to convince me that Vayne is OP.
At the moment, Vayne is fine. If Vayne becomes OP, she will be adjusted accordingly, like every other champion in the game. It's like telling me "Galio is OP because he will counter all the newly reworked mages and needs nerfs" but RIGHT NOW Galio suffers from an AD meta (and he sucks in general but you get the gist)
if they did say this, then thats a terrible decision imo. sion is considered one of riots most successful reworks, because it follows this exact philosophy.
every ability in his kit has clear counterplay, which is why it is allowd to be equally powerful. the consensus seems to be that his kit feels fun to play as, while it doesnt feel frustrating to play against.
i think ryze has different problems than polarized gameplay. his mana scaling and synergy with certain items is the first problem in his kit imo. he mostly had a large window of power without having an equal window of weakness. most of the time ryze could sit on 4 stacks of his passive, having it almost available at all times. or he could activate it too easily and too quickly again as soon as his buff ran out.
ive fought top lane ryze in the past and tried to bait out his passive before engaging on him. most of the time resulting in him triggering the damn thing again in a matter of literally half a second after it ran out. really his problem is more that he had almost constant uptime on his "window" of power, and his windows of weakness to take opportunity of were by far too small.
this isnt a failure in the design philosophy, but in its implementation.
this was also why their first reaction was to put a limit on his casts.
